I’m pleased to announce that we’ll all have an opportunity to meet this summer. Save the date for Karrot days: July 16th & 17th 2022!
Karrot days is a free and open online-event, one weekend with various sessions to get to know each other, have a look at upcoming Karrot features and discuss about them together, chat about the funding we got and of course have a good time.
Here we go! Checkout the schedule we’ve came up with so far. Hope you like it!
We will keep this post up-to-date, if anythings changes you’ll have the latest version here. It’s still in the making and we welcome your feedback!
Day 1 Saturday 16th July
11:00 - 11:30
Say hello, arrive in the space, look at schedule, check-in with each other, any ideas welcome
11:30 - 13:00
Short presentations from different karrot groups and chat
13:00 - 14:00
14:00 - 15:30
Sociocracy for groups
Intro workshop into sociocracy, beginners level
15:30 - 16:30
Karrot as a general community organising tool
What is Karrot actually good for? How does it work beyond foodsaving groups and for more general community organising? How is it different from other tools?
16:30 - 18:00
18:00 - 20:00
Karrot quiz & socialising
We’ll start with a little fun quiz on Karrot! No special knowledge required. There is time to hang out together afterwards.
Day 2 Sunday 17th July
Focus & Reflect
11:00 - 11:30
Starting the day
arrive in the space, check-in with each other, ideas welcome
11:30 - 13:00
Community Design: Breaking the silo
We’ll go through the main ideas collected for features that will break the silo of groups, that is, facilitate interactions between a group and their public. In this session we expect to gather reactions, feedback and ideas from groups
13:00 - 14:00
14:00 - 15:00
Community Design: Improving conflict resolution
A long discussed feature, we will start discussing ideas and planning the design for the next iteration of the conflict resolution feature
15:00 - 16:00
Possibilty to meet people involved in karrot, ask questions, talk about funding, see how it works to contribute. Topic based discussion circles. Optional: Speed Networking for karrot Enthusiasts, you’ll be paired with a partner every 7 min.
How does it work? You’re invited to join any session you like Come and have fun! Where do we meet? We’re using BigBlueButton as a video conference tool. Join the meeting: Karrot Do I need to register? We encourage you to join the Karrot days 2022 group where we will co-ordinate the event and hang out, but you can also just show up to a session.
Foodsharing Points by Foodsharing Luxembourg Karrot
association with a vision that all edible food is consumed
values of respect, reliability, sense of responsiblity
used a value collection process
formed an association in 2019
558 members, not all active
part of global movement against food waste, through karrot forums and other ways
projects: awareness, foodsaving, foodsharing points, distribution days, political work
awareness: information stands, disco soups with saved food, workshops. if someone has an idea it’s done.
foodsaving: most popular project, go to shops rescue food then distribute it
foodsharing points: more for private usage, public fridges usually with a shelf, everybody can drop or collect what they want, has some problems with health authorities but luckily so far it’s ok
distribution days: usually 1h, at 4 different locations, can collect food rescued from bigger super markets, so share it at cultural centre, people queue up and choose what to take, like a free market, open for everyone, 3/4 of the people have some social problems, can be frightening
political work: working on creating political demands, as part of climate movement (created around the time of XR and connected)
platforms and tools:
wordpress website with membership form and group agreement
mattermost communication platform
karrot with two groups
foodsaving, 260 members
foodsharing points, organising cleaning points, 27 members
pass generator tool for karrot to create physical passes
shared google drive
outlook for next year, 2023
collaborating with foodsharing akademie in germany
creating a foodsharing festival, creating one somewhere between belgium, germany, luxembourg, want to bring karrot into that somehow
foodsharing.lu has more info, and facebook, instagram
formal association, being regulated, health and safety, quality of food…: public foodsharing point are quite public so some issues, traceability for distribution events, need to record exactly what they take (barcodes, etc…), national/european rules apply. but for the foodsaving, when it goes from supermarket to private houses that’s ok. association is for protection incase something did go wrong.
also rescue food, also some dumpster food with cargo bikes, prepare the food if they have time
go to environmental events, and street demonstrations, and present food at these places
create buffets and give it to people
do upcycle, building kitchens on bikes
vision is to spread out with cargo bikes, give food to the people, gardening in the city, fruit trees
don’t always want to go in the trash
cargo rides, 3-5 people with trailers rescue a lot of food, then distributing near metro stations
platform, in karrot
robin foods group, with official co-operations, and working with another org, picking up from supermarkets, schools, etc
use a buro/office “place” in karrot with a lot of information for finding people for doing things
also distribute some money on a donation basis
also use karrot for a gardening group, with a few gardens, although group is less active
and another garden group using karrot to organise the different aspects of the project, using places for conversations
and another group for bike demonstration organising
harder to get people so active in those other karrot groups.
questions: where? vienna in austria.
how to engage people? missing some step by step clicks on how to get active
groups are struggling how to organise themselves, a lot of stuff coming from outside, government/political input
organising with one platform would be great for a lot of people if it gives them orientation to act, people are really motivated and interested
community fridge in the centre of copenhagen, name ties together community and fridge
inspired from a dumpster diving cafe in auhaus (sp?), was a soup kitchen, then created a permanent space, now have a whole area, stopped dumpster diving for legal reasons and now have access to other food sources
located in diverse/hip neighbourhood in copenhagen, 50-100 people/day come past the fridge on the edge of a park
started in 2020, not so much interest in foodsharing copenhagen to do the fridge, created together with someone with background in food science
has been a challenge, but still running 8-9 donors, 20 or so active volunteers
based on unconditional sharing
auhaus have been told danish rules have changed, so might kill the project, waiting for next inspection… operating in a relative greyzone, rules tightening up now… e.g. requiring constant presence to be open have to see how strict they are, lot of variation across the country about how rules are implemented
start in 2016, started by group of activists in an anarchist collective, with goal of unconditional sharing. inspired by stuff in germany. most of the founders are no longer there.
organisation has undergone many transitions.
at it’s peak, providing food to over 300 people. collected from a range of donors, gathered it in one place, gave it out unconditionally.
volunteer-based, no gov support. people get tired after a while and leave. high turnover of leadership.
during pandemic a lot of people left.
current leadership is lacking some leadership skills. people wanted a break… needs a lot of effort to build it back up again, rather than just turn it on again. start small, and slowly build up community.
community fridge continued by keeping small.
managers are free in a particular supermarket to give out their waste, they go every day.
cleaning shifts for fridge, often people don’t sign up to the shifts though…
used karrot since the beginning, very useful platform. open source and without resitrctions.
used volunteer local before, but a nightmare to use. easy for volunteers, hard for managers to co-ordinate.
foodsharing copenhagen also using karrot, but not particularly well managed in there. would have been useful to have it before.
also a bread collection group as a separate group. bread is supposed to go to events, but doesn’t co-ordinate very well… a lot goes to communtiy fridge.
also working to supply food to other groups supporting in-need people.
some complexities with co-ordinating with some of the bakeries, difference between management and staff
org structures, both are volunteer associations, have to be registered as something to handle food, registering with food authorities. foodsharing cophengan registered in 2019, were aware for some time, then told them to register. fridge registered from the start.
foodsharing copehagen has a board, but meetings are inactive now, used to be quite active. at peak had 50-70 core volunteers. fridge project doesn’t have a board. 4-5 closer core-volunteers, friends. not so much to do there.
possible methods to re-egnage community: go back to roots, just started as a bunch of activisits, dumpster diving taking it back home, then made a deal with wholesale market, went with cargo bikes collected when they felt like it, lots of community events, community dinners… bringing people together without all the requirements… part of what killed it, was it became like a business with overworked people with no money…
in the northen part of belgium, university town with around 100k population
small town with small inner diameter 3km
progressive and liberal because it’s a university town, not difficult to convince supermarkets to support them
around 40 active members
student town means a lot of inflow/outflow of members depending on exams, time availability
around 10 supermarkets with collaborations, but corona killed some of it, so about 6 nice, and increasing
toogootogo has made it difficult, not for or against it, but more willingness before
3 active hubs where rescued food is dropped off for other people to collect
hard to know how much food was saved, as reliant on volunteers to register amount
rough guess of 1.7 tonnes, or 835kg in 2021
operate with word of mouth, connected to masters course in sustainable development, a lot people come from there
other source is from facebook group
then request them to join karrot, which is where all the logistics happen
do pickups via karrot, consume what they need, then excess is dropped off at the hubs, then post a picture on facebook so people around can come and pick it up
nice pictures of the hubs, in private spaces, e.g. spaces outside residents places, or student study place.
no dedicated fridge, but asking city and university to support them there, don’t have their own budget to fund and manage it.
behind the scenes, have been operating very horizontally without hierarchy, but finding it hard to grow like that.
so forming a hierarchy of some sort with accountability.
formed 4 groups:
outreach: connect with supermarkets/companies, find new hubs (3 hubs not enough)
communication: use social media to attract volunteers, a lot of distractions for students
internal affairs: realised this need during corona as enthusiasm went down, so this is to keep people hapy, support people, ensure cohesion, bring people together, organising events
networks: more structural collaborations with the city and the university, e.g. food hubs with fridges, and more structural projects
this structure is new! hopefully it’ll help it to grow
had another slide with suggestions from challenges on karrot.
activity history, after they’ve passed you can’t see them → a lot of times volunteers sign up but don’t turn up, managing that is important, need to take some action, as they’ve promised to the supermarkets, which can get upset
easier way to record quantity of food saved → extract records. so which kind of food is being wasted on which days. which would add a lot of value for the supermarkets. specifying in kg’s only is hard (e.g. 1kg of fruit is different to 1kg of bread)
difficult to update the activities: seems to only update a few hours later, and current activities not modified, and then see the same shop twice… so changing times for activity series I think!
why to post the food on facebook? … bigger membership on facebook who belong to community, but not able to share their time for co-ordinating/picking up food. so 40 people in karrot group, but over 1000 on facebook. and on facebook get notifications when there is food, but not sure about notifications on karrot (could be a possiblity to get emails)
(another?) facebook page dedicated to people in need. “without hunger to bed” → Redirecting...
around 1/3 food wasted globally
in poland 4.8m tonnes/year wasted (probably a low estimate)
60% from household waste
32% in food processing and agriculture
8% in retail and gastronomy
actions to mitigate that, removing sigmitation that foodsharing is only for poor people, trying convince everybody that it’s for everyone
starting to collaborate with the city for opening foodsharing spots, and various initiatives
started in 2016, inititive started by students
in 2021 saved over 91 tonnes of food in warsaw
more than 200 members actively working, doing pickups
have other initiatives in other cities in poland, although not using karrot, but might join karrot in the future
creating new foodsharing spots, and try to educate people about the initiative
around 23 spots in the city, also share about other initiatives relating to foodsaving
mission is to save food products from being waste, encourage to share food products by everyone with everyone. support feeling responsible for reducing of food waste.
organisation structure, flat structure with 3 types of members:
spot keeper, responsible for a spot, co-ordinate pickups
rescuer: pick up food and deliver to spots, inform communities, responsible to clean spots
trainee: makes 3 trial pickups with rescuer or spot keeper, can join team with positive evaluation
have quite extensive list of rules to follow to become a member.
also have other groups for general co-ordination of the project, and people for recruiting new people, gathering applications for newcomers and media contact people, social media people, and messaging/email communications.
did have a group for resovling internal conflicts, due to pandemic and rotation of the people and not enough time, this group was suspended, so trying to handle conflicts within teams more openly, or co-ordination group trying to pick it up.
focus about saving food, but not only that… trying to meet, hang out, meetings in the form of socialing events, to keep the spirits high for the group.
also a facebook internal group, people like to get notifications through facebook, rather than checking karrot or emails.
struggles with karrot, some slowness and limitations due to large number of activities. interesting to see how the future will be as still growing
conflict resolution feature, was complicated for some of the new members, to understand how the voting was working. discussion around each conflict is quite good, a lot of people joining the conversations.
pandemic slowed down a bit, but still growing.
karrot very helpful for organising group of >100 people, would be impossible otherwise
visited Berlin and saw how they are working at really big markets, smaller amount in warsaw, but a lot of pickups. a few dozens of spots.
question about other towns, is it a network, potential? before pandemic having regular meetings with other cities for network discussions, but pandemic limited that. maybe resume again this year… looking for more connection there, best way to improve work and exchange ideas. not sure how other cities are right now. some initiatives and collaboration happening.
means solidarity fridge, started in 2016, like many other projects. inspired by foodsharing.de.
started with dumpster diving, and putting a fridge in a public place.
it changed a lot since then, so less storing the food, but collecting and distributing as quickly as possible, good way to avoid food spoiling.
did events, awareness raising.
2nd fridge in a library. have tried to keep everything car-free, but not possible now, so use a car.
now pickups are mostly from shops, a lot of bakeries, stores, big food bank.
also use the places in karrot to co-ordinate/chat, e.g. off-topic, board chats.
started as a flat, non-hierarchy, then started facing issues and introduced rules, a legal entity, and a board.
creates some kind of hierarchy, trying to keep it accountable.
have shop co-ordinator, sharing point co-ordinators. so you know who to contact.
have had a lot of challenges, conflict, governance stuff, keen to create a conflict resolution / wellbeing kind of group.
had various interactions with the authorities. if they had begun following the rulebook they would not have accomplished anything. so good to start under the rader. legistration is not very adapted to grassroots communities, it’s about shops and community culture. should adapt to reality of grassroots organising and foodsharing.
growth is going well, but should also take a step back to work on themselves as a group.
measured 2.5 tonnes/week.
introduction to sociocracy
power over vs power with
who gets to make decisions, governance comes up everywhere
we can think about structures and change them to be more inclusive
decision making styles, popcorn input:
majority vote, tendency to polarise the people. one side or the other.
usually “boss decides”, sometimes majority vote experiences, and some of us experience consensus.
consensus sometimes exists in families, etc…
negative experience of consensus with vetos
consensus takes patience, and more time, needs really good communication and understanding more than in the other two
sometimes people not ready for what it requires to do consensus, need to learn to unlearn what it takes to make decisions… can have a consensus frame, but without having the tools/experiences, it might actually turn into majority or boss deciding…
negative associations with sitting around all day discussing things
effeciency vs progress
how to balance: things we want to get done vs connection, listening, and community
socio- → those who associate together
-cracy → govern together
consent: can be similar to consensus, a decision is made when there is no objection, trying to integrate objections, so we have something to work on, doesn’t have to be the best, but something to improve on. shift in mindset from consensus.
circles: organising in circles, 4-10 in one circle, can have many cirlces linked to together, with
double link: 2 link people
selections by consent: every time there is a role … consent giving positions to people. rather than voting. (not entirely clear on this bit)
continuous evolution: influenced by cybernetics. plan, do, measure, then back to plan. iterative approach.
feedback on exercise: doing a task without feedback is challenging! might not be clear what is needed to be done. rebel spirit emerged for some.
exercise can show that everybodies action follows on from a previous one. need a shared purpose in the group to work in the longer term, a vision or whatever. so a sense of co-operation in moving towards a certain goal. still in this case without a real purpose, there was still a thriving to create something! got a lot more fun after not having to follow the step by step.
idea - every circle has an aim. if whole org is one circle, then org aim is circle aim. but with more circles, whole org can have one aim, and other circles with other aims to acehive common mission. aim and domain.
decisions → “do you think this proposal will work?”
personal preference, range of tolerance } consent
if you think proposal will harm the aim then raise objection, then work with faciliator to integrate objection
not about getting everyones preference, but working within the range of tolerance. personal preference isn’t a reason to object.
difference from consensus, which can focus on the preference bit.
present proposal and clarifying questions (answer one by one or after the round)
quick reactions round, time to give reaction (“this is good”, …etc)
consent round and integrate objections (hear all objections first, then integrate), every objection has interesting thoughts and information behind it
faciliator guides the process. do another round once having integrated the objections.
based on trust, need to feel safe to raise objections and share opinions.
usually faciliator is also part of the group.
we did the exercise to get consent to a proposal.
was maybe new for the group, takes time to get flowing.
difference between consent round and reactions.
reaction part can sound critical, but consent part might accept it (as they can tolerate it). fine for now emphasis, not to stretch process forever.
divided into circles have their own aims and domains.
general circle in the middle. starts with all the tasks/oeprations. then decentralizing power.
divide the cake into pieces, and take care where to cut, and how the authority is divided.
e.g. outrearch circle might have aim to share knowledge to external orgs.
always linked by 2 people, so information flows around org.
sub circle might create subsubcircles.
within a circle there are roles. leader and delegate ensure linking. leaders of the subcircle are members of the general circle. delegates are other link person.
everytime you change membership, the circle needs to consent. the links are full members. delegate is a bottom-up link, leader more like a top down one. so both directions represented.
one moving information higher → lower, and one moving it the other way.
with many subcircles, more central ones end up with co-ordination operations.
also faciliator and secretary roles in each circle.
secretary, taking notes, review policy
plus operational roles. e.g. store manager, not for governance for the work that is done by the circle.
question: what if a more controversial decision gets made by a subcircle… if one of the subcircles is dysfunctional it should show up, a lot of people want to input on lots of decisions, it can be effective to just trust that 5 people that go deep into a topic make a better decision than 20 people…
question: should it split when it reaches a certain size? no… no hard rule.
question: how to decide which subgroups to make to support sociocratic org. can just have one circle… a big task to define all the circles and roles. or growing naturally, grows bigger and then it might feel like time to create a subcricle.
mission circle. aim to steward the mission. like the “highest” level circle. e.g. like a board if it’s an organisational form.
define role and term, gather qualifications, consent qualifications
note down nomination, nomination round, change round, you can nominate yourself
propose candidate, consent round and integrate objections
very different compared to elections.
comments: quakers have a similar structure. use of silence, and waiting. keeping a calm, deliberate pacing.
“i like the role model part. i konw this model under holacracy… instead of leaders they say coordination… i like the model: because i can be in a group that is focused in a topic and can have my role their… and i dont have to participate in every session, bc we have the coordinator who gives the info further”
“I’m just thinking about the aspects of informal organisation in groups, and esp. thinking what David in copenhagen was saying to get back group energy through doing community events, and maybe less structured things…”
“I am not sure I got the leader’s role and why we need both a leader and a delegator. trying to think through the example we did with the camera on/off for this sessio and I m trying to think of the leader role in this example…”
context of design process.
agreement feature was the first feature we used a design process for.
much longer then, several months. based on the google design sprint method. adapting it for community software. https://www.thesprintbook.com/ is the book.
defining the challenge…
looking at the map on karrot, the groups look close, but actually hard to connect between them.
we’ve been contacting different groups on karrot, doing interviews/chats/discussions. but also hard to reach out to the groups.
breaking the silo / breaking the silence.
today and yesterday at karrot days is also a practise of breaking the silo.
during one of our late night calls, we made a map of what we think of breaking the silo is.
karrot as an ecosystem, we put a karrot group in the centre, and then made nodes from there. and used “How might we…” notes on that map.
before we made the map, we had already chatted with people from 6 groups, that we used to input into the map. also we guess/use our own judgement.
so one part how we might help groups learn from each other.
people wanting to set up new initiatives reach out to us in the karrot team. but we’re not the most capable people of writing back to them. maybe new initiatives connecting to existing initiatives is a better way.
relationship between groups and karrot team. how to build relationship and make it easier for contributions.
other projects similar to karrot, within a co-operative ecosystem.
also relrationship with academics/contributors/other external things, maybe gov. so how might we bringing in this external parts, but avoiding extractivism. e.g. students jump in contribute code for uni assignment, but not deeper participation.
often there is a barrier between people distributing food and those receiving it. how might we disolve that barrier, and how karrot as a tool can support that.
supermarkets are main source of food for foodsaving groups, whether official or dumpster diving. currently the supermarkets are not on karrot, so maybe there is scope there.
the dots on the map are the questions we found more interesting to focus on.
top left corner, how a group relates to it’s wider local public/network. karrot is used in a more internal way, then for reaching out to wider public, would use more mainstream social media (facebook, twitter, linked in, etc…). groups also use other tools, telegram, facebook.
so a few how might we’s…
to help people on the peripheryt to take on responsiblitiies
not overwhelm people with tools
encounter consumer mindset
support groups general outreach and advocacy
reach more people when we have more to share
engaging people who want to participate in positive change
moving from consumer culture to participatory culture.
mainstream culture is present in mainstream tools.
nudging people to establishing relationships between each other.
people find out about local intiatives using the normal tools.
people come to sharing points with a consumer mindset, interactions on facebook can be quite consumerist, focusing on wanting to take, as if a service or charity. trying to support estbalishment of different kind of relationships, through how they contact they group and interact.
moving from mainstream social media of constant scrolling. to move into a more focused space. so it’s not just posts all mixed together like on mainstream social media. context in which content is portrayed has a big impact.
supporting people to establish better connection with group, even if not becoming part of the karrot group.
round of reactions/reflections:
daniel (luxembourg): nice graph! shows the relationships nicely with other entities, not only the karrot group, nice questions in there. wondering how we came up with the questions? (input from interviews was included), a lot of interesting directions to go, wonder which way would be the most fruitful direction, for fs luxembourg, … karrot won’t replace social media, but maybe things like mattermost can be replaced, if those needs can be covered by karrot. another very interesting part is connection to other groups, e.g. organising a foodsharing festival, would be nice to contact other groups, but not clear/possible right now, to at least reach one person that’s active. nice to have a communal way, so can see somebody is trying to reach us, kind of like application works… can answer collectively.
dave (vienna): really like the breaking the silo idea, for robin foods, all these people in chat groups/facebook, people who want to get active, in their case to have a few clicks to get people into the activity, really like the direction where it’s going, to open the karrot structure to other groups, idea to support each other in other cities, can help people in other countries too to get active, really like this direction.
tomek (warsaw): it all makes sense! good that you wrote it down in this way. we can help out with testing. making some mock ups of what we would be looking after. open for any kind of help! might provide some suggestions, have also seen how foodsharing in berlin works. some very useful things there that would be great to have. aware of a lot of work related with it. contact with people outside the karrot groups, a form of portal, people can click and see without logging in, … in berlin can go to pages for each foodsharing spot where rescuers inside the group can update the content, uploading photos and descriptions. good for people to know there is food showing up they can collect. e.g. foodsharing | Fairteiler Wenceslaigasse … and possibility to request some pickups, or volunteering for one-time pickups…
nathalie (karrot): not so involved in a local group, personal interest is more about connections between different karrot groups, and between karrot team and groups, nice how karrot days is already doing a lot here. culture of allowing. opening doors and communication/feedback, but also allowing people to stay in this outer sphere. not always needing to have expectations to bring people inside, can have connections and more fluent ways. allowing different ways of interacting, can be just picking up or giving feedback. everything has it’s place in the ecosystem. getting inner peace with these different parts, everybody is necersary in their position.
nick (karrot): how to empower groups to do parts of the design process themselves, also how to collaborate with other projects, not only tech ones.
breaking the silo solutions are not always about new karrot features. or simple features, e.g. writing a banner message in karrot.
would be nice to have many features, but we also don’t have a lot of developer power, so good to focus on particular areas, and focus on simplest implementation to have greatest impact.
one for contacting the group from outside it. a contact form on the groups public page. for people who don’t have a karrot account. in the group settings you choose a contact email.
sms/email update notifications. people who are not part of the group to get updates. to be informed about which type of updates they want. then inside the group can choose to send out notifications of a particular type.
public activity link. activity that shows up to public, via a specific secret link. maybe also show up on public preview page? can sign up without creating an account, input email address so there is contact.
contacting the group from public page, open question whether you need karrot account. could have a public wall/blog…
mockup of fs luxembourg with public activities and wall.
seamlessly be able to post content publically, or only within group. non members can write messages, people in the group can see clearly that it comes from outside the group.
nice mockup of public group page.
round of reactions:
dave: more evolved than expected, amazing what we thought about, really like sms idea as it’s effective to reach out to people, email and social media notifications are already overwhelming. really like where it’s going.
Ah, good, I’m excited that there’s energy around thinking about public activity links! In my mind that is low-hanging fruit for allowing very easy public engagement with a particular Karrot group.
This makes me wonder about general experiences in other software with transparent mirroring of communications in other channels (for example how Discourse allows responding to topics by email, like the Karrot sketches here)
For public activities, I would like to make email optional, so that people can sign up even with no way to contact them (just to let activity organizers know that a person is available for that position).
daniel: like the idea to reach people through sms, as have some troubles with people on the go, getting some kind of notification, esp. elderly people who have trouble with the app, and apps in general. iphone users always complain as there is no ios app (would be good to find an ios developer). sms could be an easy solution to fill a gap of being notified. group email address idea? like the idea, wonder how it could be enforced in the groups, if it’s optional field in the settings, groups don’t look into the settings… and some groups don’t have a public email address. maybe a checkbox to actively say “we don’t have a public email address” (causes groups to at least think about it). public activities, nice idea in general. maybe a connection to mobilizon (activitypub). there are a few instances running, could be an idea to push public events to this? aims to replace facebook groups/events. for more general events. astonished to see the work already done here
tomek: looks very nice! making activity for public events makes a lot of sense, would be great. whether it would be a separate place for creating these public activities, or a toggle? make sure to confirm the user understands they are making a public event. e.g. like when you sign up it has a confirmation modal. will go into details of the slides too.
nick: happy for general enthusiasm on these ideas, nice to incorporate activitypub stuff in,
john: Cool, yeah, I’m curious about ActivityPub possibilities as well.
nathalie: also amazed what we did in the late night sessions, and enjoyed the storyboards. at first looked a lot, but was very clear going through the steps. wondering if there can be a nicer domain for the group landing page, e.g. it has a number at the moment. esp. if it’s more of a landing page. nice for contact form to reach the whole group. and liked sms/email ideas. keep in mind from foodsharing, the biggest the groups get, different backgrounds of technology, so things like sms can be easier for some people. wasn’t entirely clear how it works inside the group, especially if it’s big. if the contact form goes to the main wall and everybody gets an email… how will this work? might be better to have a more specific place for it, especially for bigger groups. and for updates… should be clear awareness that it’s happening. how it works and who takes care of it. needs people to maintain and take care of these channels, so needs willingness to do that… where does it land, who sees it, who takes care of responses.
bruno: could also have [groupname]@karrot.world email addresses set up…
vasilis: depends on structure of the group. … might vary how much they want to open up communications with theoutside. dedicated perosn vs everyone.
nick: how to surface features in karrot… and help groups set up the group.
daniel: notices when everyone gets logged out, and that’s an update! so look at changelog…
in ideal world, would be able to implement everything.
wondering how people announce more public activities, currently. whether people register.
in luxembourg, when cleaning public fridge, have people who are notpart of group who help cleaning. one group uses a google spreadsheet, but public activity would make that go away, easier to have on one platform.
other case, onboarding events. you don’t have to sign up, people are interested to know when they happen next, public events + notifiying for updates.
mostly don’t require signing up, but interesting to think about.
a few people are only members because they want to cook, but don’t want to do anything else. if there is an easier way to get into it, can activate more people, and can show need for cooking on that day.
using webpage/facebook/instagram for onboarding events. and email notifications to people who signed up on registration form.
tomek: at the moment contact form to reach out to whole group would be nice, avoiding having additional channel is nice. page for nonmembers is nice, general wall, public activities.
How do we set up the design process
8. priorities (low hanging fruit to begin with)
at the beginning of the design process for this feature, previous breaking the silo one already had a lot of prior work.
aim for a lighter design process than our previous ones, to navigate us to a next step.
wondering what the view from the “target” person is? they get to fully participate.
reflections from the ground.
katie: have not had to use the conflict resolution feature. had some conflicts within the group but they resolved themselves. people wanted to move on. lucky to not need to have to use it. nice to know it’s there.
daniel: have a conflict resolution policy, but have not included the conflict resolution feature as part of that, partly because not all the activities are on karrot, so wanted a process that is more general. people do actually use the tool though… so wondering what happens there. was used, and a few participated. when you create an issue you can see the background information about the process, but as a participate you don’t get to see that information. wonder why only 4 people participate.
… shows conflict resolution policy, as an attempt to resolve them, not to avoid or ignore them. everybodies responsiblity. non-violent communication. an escalating approach from face-to-face meeting, to a well being manager. whole group process at the end, but hasn’t occured.
… people expect there is a kind of “police” active, that observes and does stuff.
tomek: since feature introduced, used it 8 times. have strict rules in rules of membership for what actions get a warning (e.g. problem contacting member for pickup), for bigger issues (e.g. being late for pickup) a yellow card, and for not showing up with no reason get a red card. only the group responsible for solving conflicts starts the Issue in karrot, after discussing with the people involved first. usually the place where most of the discussion occurs. facing more situations with vacant spots for pickups, but people not so active in doing the pickups… but people very eager to leave comments on the issues. way of voting wasn’t clear enough, although others find it very straightforward. tried out conflict resolution as a voting mechanism, struggled in finding a proper tool for voting which can include all the members and not allow voting multiple times. got a result from that, but not very satisfied with it… too difficult for some members to understand how it works.
concern, when voting with serious cases that the user the issue is about can still sign up for activities during that time, and others thoughts they should be blocked from that during it.
some people are signing up to the same spots over and over, so used conflict resolution feature for voting system to come up with a tool.
created some guides to help people understand the voting
other than that very good tool!
gothenburg: had to use the conflict tool quite a bit, quite big group 140/150 members, using the feature is seen as very drastic, makes people upset when it’s used towards a person. added another stage to the process, have to discuss the conflict with one mutual person through mail or meetings for 1 week before you can start a conflict resolution process on karrot. hasn’t really worked perfectly so far. had the situation that the board suspended a person, and they refused to leave, which is different from trying to resolve a conflict. felt like something else was needed there. didn’t work as well as it should have.
feedback over last few years of using it:
voting system can be confusing, score voting
one change we agreed already, don’t add everyone to the chat directly
two main ideas for improving:
softer sanctions (e.g. temporary block for activities, or signing in)
escalating model of conflict resolution, so doesn’t blow out to whole group, but start on smaller scale
people could agree on a mediator
if it doesn’t work, go further, eventually involving whole group
conflicts are inevitable, bigger the group more likely that they will show up. natural part of organising a community.
wondering how NVC might come into it?
naming, conflict resolution feature is actually user removing feature.
so how would it be to actually focus on the resolution of a conflict? could it guide people through an NVC process? basically, more guidance on conflict solving.
one of the unique parts of karrot is that there isn’t one person that can just remove people.
if the group is only 5 people, it might make sense to include everyone. like 1 circle in sociocracy. but with 200 people the feature still asks for whole group decision. structural point. wondering how sociocracy would address this. tension for whole group decisions.
some resolutions could be to ensure people in conflict keep to separate parts of the group.
bruno: can relate, thinking of creating subgroup to take care of conflicts, relates to idea to start conflict process in a small way. other groups have probably created these groups to resolve this.
daniel: had discussions about less severe actions, e.g. blocked features, or only activities, and how long. could be an alternative to kicking out. having a guided resolution process could be nice. could start the process as private between two people, and if they can’t find solution after some days, could include more people.
tomek: on notificataions, understand it might be exposing for some members, e.g. one concluded that it might be more about personal tpics between people, so one-to-one might help. but thinking again about engagement, 25%-30% of community participated in voting. often have the discussion about how to activate members. so if notifications don’t come to people, there would be even less participation. maybe make it clearer that there is a conflict going on more visibly.
nick: maybe keep the little notification number visible on the left sidenav, to always show how many active issues are open.
vasilis: how do people find a neutral person? joakim: both people agree on the person. not clear whether meeting with a neutral person is helpful always, didn’t work out in one time.
proposal/idea to wrap it up? how to move on… usually we set a time for a design call,
design process is take us from the stage of uncertainty, doubts, and challenges, to become more focused and concrete. then choose something we can actually build.
idea for session to listen to miki kashtan talking about NVC and then have a discussion about it.
cri: I’m leaving and I cant participate to the next session. but thank for the previous. I’m evaluating the tool karrot for our group to “maybe share the vegetables”. here an our presentation Talk on infra CA I’m also active in the comunity of hackmeeting, so if someone will find the time to come, maybe we can meet About || HackIT 2022 last info, only because is another comunity tool writen in vue, starting from HM https://gancio.org/
tomek: application accepting is currently open to everyone, but in warsaw they have a subteam to manage those applications. so random people accept people in. they like to check people have filled in their profiles properly.
vasilis idea: quick idea to include a note for members of the group within the application questions.
bruno: also happens in gothenburg, group of people is in charge of those things, but still sometimes other people do it. could have a description for the applications page to explain things.