Weekly call about Karrot development 2022

Date: 2022-05-10 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: until 13.30 CEST
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Vas is waiting for another week to make his announcement :wink:
      • Nathalie will send a little feedback questionnaire on her facilitation
    • next meeting:
      • General weekly 2022-05-17 12:00 CEST
      • Design Process Breaking the silo 2022-05-10 20:00 CEST

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • ask what is needed to fill in responsibilities doc [Nathalie, Vas?]
  • write holding reply to nlnet that we have quite a few nearly there, and we’ll send more detail about those next week [Nick]
    • we don’t know what happened here
  • create “agreements” category and post the money agreement there [Vas]
  • create an activity in the “Funding” place to review the money policy [Nathalie]
    • Nathalie did it with new editor rights in the karrot group
  • link from How to distribute money in Karrot to the money agreement post (that will be created above) [Nathalie]
    • Vas did it
  • celebrations?
    • Nathalie had a look at the karrot days pad

4. Discussion points

  • 15 min nlnet planning [E]

    • more detailed answer to Jos (it has to wait)
    • start working on a reply now, check later with Nick
    • what are we able to fulfill until end of october
      1. Improve developer experience
        • Nick & Tilmann need to decide, seems to go forward, almost done?
        • time scope?
          → (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
      2. Roles feature
        • first iteration is ready to implement, how does the coding go?
        • Put name down as responsible even if there are no coding skills? “Taking the lead”, making sure it will happen, is also good. More like a manager. Motivational aspect.
        • Nathalie will put here name there!
        • write-up and documentation still a bit open. Write a forum post. Make it accessible. Nathalie will feel responsible too
          → (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
      3. Design and develop feature toward ‘breaking the silo’ among groups on Karrot and the wider public outside Karrot
        • Bruno proposes to finish “Conduct and publish writeup of design process” by July/ August
        • see how it can fit with karrot days to get some feedback
        • karrot days in June/July would be cool
          → we can deliver something until October!
      4. Agreements feature
        • Nathalie and Bruno want to see this feature and are therefore motivated
        • Nathalie will put her name down and Bruno will be really supportive, working starts in 1-2 months (for “Writeup process and documentation for agreements feature”)
        • check with Nick about the implementation part (or other devs in a supportive position?)
          → (reply to Jos) holding on to it
      5. Refining places and activities feature
        • Bruno could come up with first sketch at some point, start the process, work on design
        • Vas motivated to help, hopes for input from karrot days
        • lower priority for now?
        • could come up with minimal version later
        • check with technical stuff
        • places and activites seem to work fine in karrot now
        • task would need to start from the beginning
          → (reply to Jos) a bit unsure (we need to check it in x months? <–would this work?)
      6. Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
        • Vas is the steward
        • “Document participatory processes (for other projects)” can be combined with phd maybe, a bit vague at this point
          • a blog post on the topics could be nice
          • an extra website maybe
        • Conduct and publish writeup into how Karrot is being used until June/ July with data from interviews, inside stories
        • Guide for participants on how to contribute
          • extended list of ways into karrot
          • e.g. fo students
          • how can you do it
          • co-working session at some point
          • it’s not a big issue, just needs to be done
            → (reply to Jos) 2 of 3 will be done for sure, the 3. one a bit more optional
      7. Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
        • complicated topic
        • think about next iteration and test it
        • conduct design process even in fewer sessions than breaking the Silo
        • start the latest end june, make it topic for karrot days
        • start right after Breaking the Silo, maybe a bit overlapping
        • have it in august/september
          • is this too late for implementation?
            → (reply to Jos) there is motivation to work on it, implementation could be time-critical
      8. Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot
        → (reply to Jos) Nick & Tilmann should say something about that point
  • optional: 10 min reflection in Nathalie’s faciliation [E]

    • another time
    • there will be the written feedback
  • move on to money circle! :euro: :dollar: :pound:

    • start today but continue next time

    • how much do we want to write down in the minutes?

      • personal preference
      • check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
    • round reflection on categories and questions

      • which category you 'd place yourself in

      • Vas: volunteer contributor (but committed), income from uni, funded and doing research in karrot, no additional money from karrot, one wish would be to keep a small amount of money aside e.g. for a karrot meeting. Receives 1200£ as a stipend, some months 2 rents in athens and uk, not stuff member so not in a pension scheme, unemployed in greece meaning has to pay for health expenses, a loan of 10,000 euros to renovate a countryside house inherited by grandma, shares resources with partner that her job is going shit, most money spent on food, gardening and side-projects

      • Bruno: commited contributor, would be nice if karrot would help to cover expenses, expenses around food and rent, basic bills, travels, not a must, contribution flowing up and down depending on the week, focus on long-term contribution, feels very much commitment, reflection about privileges, living in a welfare state, family has been able to help and has the option to do climbing courses or do swedish courses

      • Nathalie: ocassional contributor, shared economy with 4 others → savings got lower over time, questions of how to achieve a sustainable financial situation, future changes require a new orientation, move out from kanthaus where rent and food are not a cost → health insurance as ongoing cost, get some money out of sociocracy possibly, be happy to get a little bit of money, need to find my karrot projects so this middle thing is quite fitting

    • what’s the current balance, how long would it last

    • how we organize ‘money contributions’

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Vas will reorganize the karrot days pad (Vas)
  • Ask Nick if he wants to share some input? (Vas)
  • E-mail to Jos after chatting with Nick (Vas)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno!
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-05-17 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: until 13.30 CEST
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • back-ups are reliably backing up now
        facilitation
    • next meeting:
      • General weekly 2022-05-24 12:00 CEST
      • Design Process Breaking the silo 2022-05-17 20:00 CEST

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Vas will reorganize the karrot days pad (Vas)
  • Ask Nick if he wants to share some input? (Vas)
    • can be done today
  • E-mail to Jos after chatting with Nick (Vas)
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • nlnet planning, finish with open questions from last week
  • deadline October 1th 2022
  • (Weekly call about Karrot development 2022 - #17 by Vasilis_Ntouros)
    • last week we went through all milestones

    • input needed on some points still

      1. Improve developer experience
      • 1 a) is merged, we can request the money
      • 1 b) c) and Optional: Nick started looked at this, seems achievable, good idea to talk to Tilmann, support each other
        → we are holding on to this
        → optional ones depend on nlnet also, putting those lower priority
        → get on with one of it now, others can be ongoing, nice independend tasks
      1. Roles feature
        Nathalie and Nick will have a chat on that topic
        → seems good from Nicks perspective
      2. Design Breaking the silo
        → seems good from Nicks perspective
      3. Agreements feature
      • implementation part? highest chance for outside devs as there already is the prototype
      • maybe break it down to smaller parts
      • new devs would still need Nicks help (what he offers)
        → holding on to it, check-in in a few weeks
      1. Refining places and activities feature
      • come up with ideas for design part
        → agreement to what was said last time, evaluate in a few months
      1. Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
      • a) in high priority
      • b) holding on, evaluate in a few months
      • depends on our flow of work, there is potential for a lot of productivity
      1. Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
        → agreement to what was said last time
        → put b) as “maybe”

      2. Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot

      • self contained tasks
      • feel good about those
        → we’re doing it!

in reply: have different categories for the topics
- high priority
- holding on, evaluate in a few months
be transparent in our communication, check-in with nlnet regular

other thoughts: what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer? → talk about it more in the next call

  • translation requests: korean (just now), and indonesian (october last year)

    • on transifex, a button clicked
    • no groups with this language
    • click “yes” - ok!
    • edit our description on the platform
    • karrot localization
  • open application on karrot group in spanish

    • person who wanted to join a spanish group
    • Nick replied in spanish
    • Bruno would write another reply and deny request
  • move on to money circle! :euro: :dollar: :pound:

    • how much do we want to write down in the minutes?
      • personal preference
      • check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
    • round reflection on categories and questions
    • what’s the current balance, how long would it last
    • how we organize ‘money contributions’
  • current balance: 6276,38 €

  • Nick: commited contributor, short-term: savings going down, long-term: achieve indepented financial situtation, context of whole economy, using holistic concept of value, difficult in capitalist surroundings, aiming for local income too at some point

Reflections:

  • tension between spending karrot money too fast and supporting people long-term
  • critical about always seeking for money
  • finding the right balance
  • karrot is growing up a bit, plug more into the flow of our lived lives, keep coherent and consistend within that
  • money forces a certain way of operating
  • idea from last money calls: distribute money in a way, so it would last 3 years
    • with complete nlnet funding it would be around 730€/month total
    • maybe rather take 2 years as a reference
    • enough time to look for another source of money
    • include this guideline in money policy?
  • current bank balance for 2 years: 260€/month
  • current bank balance + nlnet funding (complete): 1095€/month
  • current bank balance + nlnet funding (1/2): 678€/month
  • long-term strategy for karrot: a discussion for the future!
  • a bit of talk about funding and/or crowdfunding, hybrid model, keeping things independent
  • how do we come to a proposal with numbers?
    • go with monthly reference
    • karrot itself wanting some money (collective expense)
    • reserve amount for future contributors?
    • shorten terms for money calls
    • have the next money call in 3 months, even before if there is the need (e.g. for Tilmann to join)
    • talk about it next time and come up with numbers!
    • agreed on each others level of contribution :slight_smile:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
  • Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
  • Bruno checks with Vas and they write the reply to Jos
  • Topic for next call: what are the condidtions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer?
  • update description on transifex [Bruno]
  • write reply to application in spanish [Bruno]
  • talk about numbers next time [all]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: leave it open for now
  • checkout

Date: 2022-05-24 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: all
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: until 12.50 CEST
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
  • Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
    • in the near future
  • Bruno checks with Vas and they write the reply to Jos
    • new action item
  • Topic for next call: what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer?
  • update description on transifex [Bruno] - check
  • write reply to application in spanish [Bruno] - check
  • talk about numbers next time [all]
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • money circle: define money amounts
    • 1095€/month for 2 years as a reference (see last time minutes)
    • Nathalie: thought a lot about the 15/hour reference, would like to dedicate 5 hours/week, skeptical about this way of thinking
      • would like 300€/month
    • Bruno: continuous dedication to Karrot with ups and downs
      • would like 200€/month
    • Bruno and Nathalie still feel flexible with the amount
    • re-evaluate on next money circle in approximately 3 months
  • what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
    • more co-working sessions are more motivating
    • checking in with each other more often
      • could be scheduled, doesn’t have to be a call, short message
      • checking if help is needed
      • a “chatty” chat/place, different feel for different digital tools
      • trying to find a space in karrot, just writing in the general space? There is not so much activity atm
      • continue in next call
  • little chat about karrot days

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • double check reply to Jos Nlnet (Bruno)
  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: leave it open for now
  • checkout

Date: 2022-05-31 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Bruno and all
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1:30h
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
  • Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
    • in the near future
  • double check reply to Jos Nlnet (Bruno)
  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • approve/decide amounts for money circle

    • Nathalie 300€/month
    • Bruno 200€/month
    • Nick XXX€/month
    • re-evaluate in 3 months (end of august)
      → go ahead with it, Nick can jump in anytime
    • would we start using karrot money as we don’t have any NLnet money yet? → yes
    • also we can send in first milestone
    • money flow day? first tuesdays of the month (possibility to have it later too)
    • everyone is responsible for their own tranfer
    • we agree (until someone comes and disagrees)
    • starting next week!
  • reply to Jos

    • level of detail? don’t be too vague, tell about 2 levels of priority
    • be very clear
    • what we did last meetings
  • karrot days :slight_smile:

    • Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
    • liked idea to have a mix between weekdays/weekend
    • starting in the morning on first day is not really for working people
    • liked suggestions
    • how much can we do? that’s the core of the program
    • finding dates: we decide in the meeting here, or give 3-4 options most for the forum
    • dates: we define the 2-3 days, only some people visit the forum
    • sceptical about duration of the days, too long in general
    • likes “inspire, focus, reflect”
    • remains tricky how to communicate to groups, different ways to communicate
    • before august
    • idea: have it week-end only, don’t make it too long
    • one weekend in july!
    • have date by next meeting
    • have it 2 days, not 2 1/2
  • breaking the silo design process

    • not happening this evening, maybe another day this week
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?

    • co-working as an idea to get things going
    • co-working, when?

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • invite Nathalie to the Wise account (Bruno)
  • working on a draft to Jos (Bruno)
  • finally replying to Jos! (Vas)
  • check with Nick and maybe Tilmann about which dates would work for the karrot days (Nathalie)
  • send out a message to find a day of the week for co-working (Nathalie)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-06-07 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick, Vasilis

1. Opening

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
    • co-working is nice progress for this
  • invite Nathalie to the Wise account (Bruno)
  • working on a draft to Jos (Bruno)
  • finally replying to Jos! (Vas)
    • and Jos replied, all good for now!
  • check with Nick and maybe Tilmann about which dates would work for the karrot days (Nathalie)
    • Tilmann not really in for that type of participation, more thoughts about code/cleanup/tech topics
    • Nick shared availability
  • send out a message to find a day of the week for co-working (Nathalie)
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting

    • he wonders about 300/350/400, leaning on 400 euros
    • evaluate all together at the end of august
    • addresses more immediate financial needs
    • wondering how it will feel for Vasilis not receiving money
    • has been risk of outcome that Nick needs to get job and can’t work much on karrot, so good to support him
    • would be nice if amounts were more!
    • could have imagined higher number
    • will be good to have our financial evaluation in 3 months too, forecasting
    • money works best when it flows
    • also need some savings, or money for events, etc…
    • could consider going higher in the future
    • acountability follows money. crowdfunding preferable than funding
  • ‘money flow day’/ money distribution

    • first tuesday of the month to do transfer
    • everybody does their own transfer
    • considered private payments between people
    • if we need to shift from wise, there is this “elinor” thing in germany, or opencollective solution
  • decide on co-working time(s) [D]

    • Have a look at karrot co-working time! (CEST) - When2meet
    • Clarifying Questions?
    • Reactions:
      • Nick: one morning, one afternoon, more options to work in pairs, could add a bunch of options over the week and people check-in at the beginning of week which slots they will join
      • Vas: nice to get motivation that we’re all working on the same project, prefer morning times, would prefer long session (6 hours!), maybe sounds long, but also take a nap… knowing there is someone else there, idea of “karrot day” nice
      • Bruno: need to talk to Madde to co-ordinate with kids, mornings/lunchtimes generally better, at least 1h, at most 2h, nice to have a more fixed time for karrot work, end of month frans will start school so more time available, try a few weeks and re-evaluate
      • Nathalie: maybe we can go for wednesday now! 2h “core” slot where everyone is there would be nice, then flexibility elsewhere
    • Proposal:
      • 10-12 CEST wednesday, core co-working slot
      • optionally have more karrot work on wednesdays too
      • agreed!
    • Next steps
      • starting this week?
        • yes, although not everyone can make it
      • meet in jit.si room at the starting time?
      • do we want an activity for this?
        • of course! which place?
  • karrot days dates [D]

    • 16/17 july
    • agreed!
    • should do a “save the date” announcement somewhere, can organise that in co-working tomorrow
    • should we keep the same forum topic, or have a fresh one
      • can be decided in the co-working thing
    • also can revives daves designs, they are shared somewhere in karrot, and with the link to the design tool
  • feedback on a ongoing conflict resolution

    • still strong reactions to everybody being involved in it
      • blame directed towards person who created the issue in karrot
    • one suggestion: send out only the initial notification when conflict starts, no notifications to everybody about messages
      • only subscribe the initiator and “target” to the conversation
      • big improvement in terms of effort/impact
      • is there a risk for it being confined to the two people involved in it only
        • knowledge about it goes around, so other people would join
        • seems enough if everybody at least gets the notification
      • maybe only subscribe the editors
    • confusion about messages (e-mail notifications)
      • people confuse notifications with messages to them
    • we found out we don’t particularly know how it works
      • questions:
        • what does the “new conflict resolution process” notification setting do?
        • what is the default option for that notification is?
        • who is notified when the issue is created?
        • who is added to the conversation when an issue is created?
        • who can vote?
        • is there a notification before the end?
      • current scenario
      • how we would like it to be
    • maybe also add another notification when it’s near the end (1 day to go)
    • we also have scheduled a design process for improving the conflict resolution feature
      • do we include this as input to that, or go ahead with a small change that we seem to have loose consensus on it
    • ask community on forum about it
      • good idea to not open up the whole topic in that moment, knowing we have our design process and karrot days coming up to explore the wider topic
      • including brunos experience that people will find out about the conflict within the group
      • open minded that it might work diferently in other groups
    • summary:
      • we should get to know our own tools
      • we probably shouldn’t add people into the conversation automatically, other than the two people
      • there could be a notification a day (for example) before it ends
  • karrot days feedback [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • agreed for nick to receive 400EUR/month
  • answer the conflict resolution questions (nick/others?)
  • consult with karrot community on forum about proposed small changes (bruno)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nick
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-06-14 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: Bruno
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Nathalie, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1h30
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Vas bought a bicycle! \o/
    • next meeting: next week

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • karrot days feedback [E]
    1. decide on starting time: 11 CEST on saturday?
      • agreed
    2. feedback on graphics: see Karrot
      • add time zone
      • we like the second one, with the little things on it
      • should we specify more where online?
        • community.karrot.world as a banner and/or pinned post
      • make the link underlined, and not the sentence below
      • where is it going to be shared?
        • to different Karrot groups along with a short invitation
      • get the image on full resolution
    3. feedback on schedule
      • included on the pad below the schedule table
      • Nathalie will do some changes
      • think about who will facilitate the sessions
  • karrot days next steps?
    • invite ppl for the lightning talks
      • prepare the invitation and the list of “guest” on the co-working
    • organize/plan workshops
      • plan tools to be used (jitsi or BBB? excalidraw?)
    • do we manage to decide on schedule next week and start inviting people?
    • a banner on Karrot?
    • let’s create a Karrot group, both to organize sessions and to play with!
  • feedback from Nick about hacktioncamp event [R]
    • hacklab started in the 90s and activist oriented
    • rooted in alternative news media/indie media
    • haven’t done anything in 5 years and got together again with a mix of old and new people
    • about 14 people joined the Karrot playground group for this occasion
    • one person active in the Transition Movement, Karrot might be interesting to transition groups (he set up humhub for some groups)
    • XR and transition movement set up a nice suite of tools, but local groups usually do not use them. National networks might be a bit centralizing in this sense
      • a reflection (connected to breaking the silo): more important that groups connect and communicate among themselves rather than the national organization
    • Nick got motivated to present tech tools for community organizing, together with people from other towns
    • People from radar.squat.net travel around and do work on the project on site. That’s a nice idea for Karrot as well
    • Some questions concerning GDPR, data protection and the legal form of the project were raised
    • Conflict resolution and trust were interesting for people, quite unique
    • Two parts session: one presentation (background, values etc.) and one interactive testing Karrot in a group
  • some reflections on how to do outreach for Karrot…
  • hide email addresses? [E ->D?]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • continue planning and organizing Karrot days
    • write invitations text, etc. during co-working (Vas, Bruno)
    • change some things on schedule (Nathalie)
    • create Karrot group for Karrot Days (?)
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno
  • checkout

Date: 2022-06-21 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Vasilis & some help
Participants: Nathalie, Vasilis, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1h30
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • new french groups
        • emailed to ask how to create a group, should make it more obvious how to do it!
    • next meeting:

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • continue planning and organizing Karrot days
    • write invitations text, etc. during co-working (Vas, Bruno, Nick)
    • change some things on schedule (Nathalie)
    • create Karrot group for Karrot Days (?)
      • Karrot - WIP: join & collaborate :slight_smile:
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
    • keep it for next week
  • celebrations

4. Discussion points

  • feedback from dave
    • Karrot
    • longer editing time [E]
      • currently 2 days, request to be forever, or some limit?
      • unclear exactly what the case it is for
      • how does it relate to deleting messages (which is not possible right now)
      • should edits and deletes keep all old versions for accountability? should everyone in the group be able to access the history of the messages
      • how do people even know/find out that there is a 2 day limit? so, having a manual, or documentation would be nice here :slight_smile:
        • an interactive tutorial within karrot could be nice :slight_smile:
    • google calendar compatible ical feed [D]
    • a view of past activites that are easy to duplicate (copy and edit) [E]
      • how does it relate to the history? could it be presented in that view?
      • accessing the conversation is important
      • if past activities are more visible, it perhaps further increases the gap between visible and invisible work
  • karrot days
    • announcement banner inside karrot [E → D?]
    • invite ppl for the lightning talks
    • work on the ‘workshops’ (let’s plan on that)
      • looks nice!
      • put your names down for facilitation
      • keep a list of people/ groups we invite in the pad
    • tools
      • try BBB on the next meeting
  • e-mails
    • do we have a karrot-mail/ inbox?
    • foodsaving inbox, e-mails get redirected to forum
    • people usually don’t send e-mails to karrot
    • often related to foodsharing international
    • include nathalie to forum
    • also some spam

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
  • Vasilis will prod Dave to see what the editing messages point is about
  • send out BBB link for next meeting [Nathalie]
  • work on description wednesday and put it on the forum [Nathalie, Bruno]
  • add Nathalie to forum’s e-mail

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
  • checkout

Date: 2022-06-28 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Bruno
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Vasilis, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
    • next meeting: design process: this evening, karrot call: next week

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
  • send out BBB link for next meeting [Nathalie]
  • work on description wednesday and put it on the forum [Nathalie, Bruno]
  • add Nathalie to forum’s e-mail
  • celebrations
    • karrot days group filled with life, activities are up
    • we have a karrot days image! see Ufile.io - 1655975000 or here
    • ics with token auth, it will probably make it possible to import to google calender, and make it easier to use in general

4. Discussion points

  • General Info post on Karrot days [D]
    • see Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
    • any comments/ additions?
      • should people register and if not, how much do we want to encourage them? Round:
        • strenghen the need to register
        • not make it mandatory, but explain why it’s good to join the Karrot group. Suggestion: add more info about the Karrot days group
        • make it clear that it’s not mandatory, to make it feel more open
        • agrees not mandatory and to make it more persuasive to join the group
      • Agreed upon: “We encourage you to join Karrot days 2022 group where we will co-ordinate the event and hang out, but you can also just show up to a session”
    • share the image! In the banner at the forum? Yes!
    • Karrot banner: merged on dev.karrot.world
      • gets it from a post on a forum thread
      • it will get deployed soon, together with the Quasar update, which might bring some issues
      • get the forum thread ready and then publish
        • ability to post limited to Karrot contributors only
  • manual, write-up, documentation [E]
    • thoughts, ideas, how can this look like?
    • what needs to be done to fulfill NLnet tasks (roles, agreement feature)
    • different types of documents
    • documentation for users not in NLnet
    • screen casts were started
    • documentation of e.g. agreemetns feature is different than manual
      • for roles feature there is a lot in the forum
    • what’s the audience?
    • where should it be published? form? tone?
    • e.g. how does the trust system work - no place to look it up
      • more clarity
    • key audience: karrot contributors
    • wider discource, make connection with other projects
    • manual different than documentation
      • doc: how do we design the feature, how did we do that…
      • worth sharing
      • manual: keeping up what Tais started doing, could be videos
      • NLnet only asks for documentation, not creating a manual
    • user manual/ guidance
      • would be nice to have
      • lot of basic things
      • ‘how to get to the wall’
      • guide needs to be inside karrot
      • not only in english
      • interactive type guide
        • topic based
        • video in it
    • NLnet things could be changed, fit it in
    • align with own motivation
    • there is already a help section on the trust system
    • expore more maybe in co-working
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
    • proposal in: Conflict resolution with possibility to remove user from group - #40 by bruno
    • reactions
      • add another sub-item: automatically add me to the conversations in new conflict resolution proces
      • default: “New conflict resolution process checked”, but sub-item not checked
      • Bruno proposes to have the option in the conflict resolution chat
      • a bit of trying out in the karrot feedback team
      • we found out that we cannot opt out entirely of the conversation
      • not sure it should be off by default, especially in cases one is involved or would like to participate
      • would you get automatically subscribed if you write on the conversation? (default behavior on Karrot now is yes)
      • conflict resolution in general is an important part of Karrot
      • likes the idea of not everyone getting subscribed, especially if the group is big
      • confusion between subscribing and actually participating in the conversation
      • what about when there is a group of people responsible for conflict and mediation?
      • also a feeling of being overwhelmed by the number of people in the discussion (the little faces on it)
      • keep the proposal of leaving it off by default and consistent with Karrot’s notification system
      • new proposal from forum
        • we agreed to that!
  • review of BBB for karrot days [E]
    • try it out for this evening’s session?
  • NLnet updates?
    • ask for money

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Vasilis will prod Dave to see what the editing messages point is about (Vasilis)
  • Request $ Nlnet (Nick)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: The Vasilitator
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-07-05 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: The Vasilitator
Minutes: all
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Katie, Bruno, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1:30h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • frans first bike ride!
    • next meeting: 2022-07-05 12:00 (UTC+2)

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Vasilis will prod Dave to see what the editing messages point is about (Vasilis)
  • nlnet payment requested :slight_smile:
  • failed deployment
  • disrupt.org funding thing
    • expecting a connecting e-mail

4. Discussion points

  • Katie update from world of academia
    • journal paper: stock foodsharing group sumbitted as a paper…governance things there, balance of structure → governance models paper, 4th paper, the smart fridge, run a workshop on that ‘smart’ style fridge, conceptualize a smart fridge, multidisciplinary workshop,
    • community organising with various levels of participation, human write-up ← casual article/blogspost. It can be a summary of it, scaling out rather than up, breaking the silo and Katie’s paper/work.
  • Karrot days updates - Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
    • video conference tool?
      • bbb
      • break out rooms
      • upload slides easily
      • link: Karrot
      • excalidraw is a good complement
      • consented to bbb, technical intro in co-working session tomorrow
      • nathalie will check with chandi/matthias as we plan to use the living utopia server
    • planning sessions
      • nick & vas meet tonight and talk about breaking the silo session
      • bruno will be informed
      • slow tuesday next week again
    • invitations to non-karrot ppl?
      • fediverse?
      • adjacent communities we know and are connected to?
      • nathalie will see where to advertise it within foodsharing
    • updates from the invitation sent around
    • banner?
      • forum post
      • karrot ← needs some work
    • update info in karrot days group
  • money flow
    • a round in which one of us express how it felt to get the money contribution
  • nlnet milestones follow-up
    • general follow up. where we at? after the karrot days
  • editing wars, trust issues and group splitting

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • update karrot post and add the link to the meeting bbb room (Nathalie)
  • announce Karrot Days on the fediverse (Bruno)
  • reach B. from the brussels group (Nick)
  • write to Efa (Nathalie)
  • work on the banner for karrot (Nick will try, no promises though)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week:
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-07-12 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Bruno, Vasilis, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1:30h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Bruno: cherry tomatoes are growing!
      • Nick: beautiful plants in community garden & food-saved chicken
    • next meeting:
      • co-working on wednesday
      • late night call moved to thursday: 2022-07-14 20:00 (UTC+2)
      • Karrot Days! 16th/17th
      • regular meeting next tuesday

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • update karrot post and add the link to the meeting bbb room (Nathalie)
    • it’s in there
  • announce Karrot Days on the fediverse (Bruno)
    • Bruno facing log-in issues
  • reach B. from the brussels group (Nick)
    • nothing back, but e-mail sent
  • write to Efa (Nathalie)
    • got a nice reply
  • work on the banner for karrot (Nick will try, no promises though)
    • great! juhuuuuuu
    • looks good on mobile too
    • at least one application because of that!
  • celebrations
    • more people in Karrot group!
    • how does Karrot actually work? (nobody here seems to know)

4. Discussion points

  • NLnet money came in?

  • (from last meeting) editing wars, trust issues and group splitting

    • do votes from deleted users still count?
      • or from people leaving the group (when the process is still running)?
    • opinion from discussions: no, they shouldn’t
    • in current implementation they’re counted
    • https://github.com/karrot-dev/karrot-frontend/issues/2507
    • what happens to the conflict resolution when someone leaves?
      • it stops when you’re the subject
        • information about it on the vote tab
      • it continues when you’ve been the person starting it
    • no limit in parallel conflict resolution processes
    • knowing who is in another group?
      • not being in both groups after a split-up
      • actually you can see it on the members profil
        • let’s you see common groups and other groups
        • it shouldn’t be so visible
        • it is useful sometimes in ‘networks’
        • more options in user’s profile in the future?
    • culture of silence, people not speaking up
      • power positions in group
      • approving conflict resolution feature having this in mind
      • the more people speak up, the more comes to the surface
      • sensitive issues
      • empower people to raise a flag
      • problems need to be addressed, they come out sonner or later
      • building trust to avoid conflicts <–> dealing with conflicts when they happen (because they will)
      • ‘how did we get so far on this’
      • how to identify conflicts in a group
      • supporting groups for good governance, e.g. agreements feature
      • cases when it’s a distaster, abuses - ‘toxic bomb’ in a group
      • Karrot team mostly separated from groups
        • makes it easier to talk about this critical topics
        • only Bruno is involved in very active local group which uses Karrot
        • more people with their own experiences would be great
      • psychological effects of self-organising
        • would be an interesting study
      • so important to (re)learn a loving way of organising (!!!) <3
      • ‘what if’ scenarios
        • we could talk through them
        • what are the scenarios?
  • ‘pick facilitator for next week’ move from Closing section to Opening? [Nathalie]

    • in the opening? yes
    • we try it out
  • Karrot Days

    • updating activity descriptions with full text?
      • proposal: faciliators do it for their session
      • Nicks apple sounds good, the proposal too
    • invitations to be sent out?
      • fediverse post uselful
        • invite bonfire
        • neighbs app (vas)
        • l200 zurich (vas)
        • ‘every seed of connection is nice’
      • we did some already
    • add some teasers for the sessions on the Karrot group?
      - ‘momentum building’
      - post on karrot group?
      - msg on the Karrot group wall @mentions

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
  • add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
  • write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
  • invitations to groups/communities [all]
  • teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno then! but…I am travelling i cannot do it…so…Nick it is!
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-07-19 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Vasilis, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Nathalie away next week until wednesday (away from 21th to 27th)
    • next meeting: next week tuesday as usual
      • slow tuesday, no nick, but vas checks with bruno
      • coworking tomorrow

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
  • add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
  • write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
  • invitations to groups/communities [all]
  • teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)

4. Discussion points

  • how to evaluate karrot days [E]

    • maybe a bit of meta reflection + evaluation of karrot days itself
    • vas:
      • avoiding giving a number out of 10
      • it was great! didn’t expect having 10 people in a session for example, exceeded expectations, people who joined seemed very into it
      • a bit of disappointment that more people from the lightning talks didn’t participate in later sessions
      • maybe some people just wanted to jump in to give presentation then leave, hoped for more participation
      • would be nice to write something, like a blog post, or article, if somebody has the motivation, could go beyond a forum post, e.g. a news article, something can share with other alternative media, to report on process, a bit beyond karrot days, how we did it, how it was. also connected with the nlnet milestones, how different groups on karrot are using karrot, bringing it together. can share it with people and with nlnet.
      • “pestering people to come”, not very joyful/intuitive, but also worth doing it, being a prick for a while… maybe just because it’s the first time?
      • overlapping circles, karrot team, and groups that use karrot. not just us that have to reach out, just us accountable to them, but also both ways around. have to build the relationship, maybe pestering is worth doing. maybe should be more shared “responsibility”, not just karrot team. giving more responsibility to people who use software.
      • maybe rather than responsibility, it’s a sense of interdependence, from garden/CSA metaphor, have some people doing the gardening, since we’re enjoy beauty of garden, nice to help out once in a while
    • nathalie:
      • also had it in mind to write up a summary, was thinking of a forum post, other ideas are nice, but also bigger
      • forum post can include screenshots/pictures, to give a feeling, and link the pads with notes
      • also for us to have all information in one place, evaluation slides, etc. a place to find all the information
      • also being aware that karrot days group will be gone at some point unless we keep it alive (ok if we let it compost over time)! would be nice to have a closing post on there, can be casual
      • a bit confused on how to evaluate, don’t see so much follow-up evaluation, no ideas for a bigger evaluation process
      • was a really nice way to engage with the community, gave a sense of belonging, that they are connected through karrot, as have felt that it’s something that karrot is not providing, compared to foodsharing.de (which has an organisation), so cool to not be part of an organisation but see the connections and build on this, some groups more than others want to belong to karrot (as a community)
      • it’s quite some work, prompting people, etc. thinking wouldn’t personally just turn up to event from clicking on a link. personal invites make a huge difference. doesn’t Just Happen.
      • wondering about level of work compared to the number of people coming, put quite a lot of working into session, maybe too much for number of people attending, and maybe too stressed/professional, and couldn’t meet own expectations, wondering if too much for a small friendly group
      • felt very nice overall!
      • prompted a lot of thoughts and re-read some sociocracy stuff, some lingering questions around volunteers, and culture of allowing (fine for people to just use the software), emerging thoughts, not clear yet. would like to explore further with sociocracy people. don’t see every group taking responsibility, would be nice for more spaces where people from groups can be involved. could have a karrot group circle, and different models to ensure links.
      • also wondering why more people from the lightning talks stay, hard to make a session very appealing that is basically about connecting without a clear structure
      • wondering about open space session, maybe something clearer would help people to come, how much facilitation is needed? how to engage more with people?
      • thinking about future scenarios, do we want to repeat this kind of karrot days? different topic? more coding oriented? different style? in person?
    • nick:
      • how to evaluate (meta question), structured evaluation of previous things. A little bit of a structure (e.g. rose thorn, buds, open questions for the future), positive stuff + critical reflections. From unity days…cluster the two together → focus on future work. A more diffuse way might work as well
      • Direct evaluation: energy resourcing, felt motivated and energised afterwards, felt grounded, tanglible, rooted in experiences, there was a lot of alignment in general e.g. breaking the silo → can be on a tech way (federated protocols, dec tech) whereas breaking the silo can be more community centred, more social, less tech-centric (bolo-bolo thing might tie a lot)
        • evaluate how to move forward in general over the summer
      • writing an article for general consumption
      • a forum post that can be coherent, or dump enough (notes, links, writeups for the seesions, key takeaways). Those can be a nice base for writing an article
      • Interconnectedness between groups. Community cafe can be a way forward. Or pester sb monthy to partricipate in a ppt round
      • wider networking for Karrot itself: NVC stuff for example, what can we do to bring in ppl from other ‘ideas’. Network of communities of organizing. Ties in a a lot to what I have mind about bath. Resourcing the infrastructure. Resourcing: a festival, a community cafe vs isolating
      • what is the right number for a session? the example of the session Nick facilitated
      • in general I liked the number of ppl and not some random internet ppl to listen out of curiosity
      • emergent version: a space where ppl step in when they feel that they want to take on some responsibility. The see a a need and then ‘act’. More fluid structures.
  • form a ‘project circle’/‘helping circle’ for the conflict resolution design process? [E]

    • formalize/structure from the conflict resolution session for the design process
    • also a way to play with the circle structure, as a co-ordinating circle, and a temporary connected circle we give the authority to for this specific feature?
    • writing a little template so a group can act on it, e.g. “design the next conflict resolution feature”, and how the decision part is, give the power!
    • there were some discussion about power terms (e.g. leader), but maybe appoint someone here
    • could give Tomek a structure to act in, maybe Bruno/Vas to lead?
    • also seemed to happen a bit with the breaking the silo process
    • reporting back was kind of informal, could have more intentional reporting
      • Aim/expected outcome/mandate
      • Domain
      • Leader
      • Term/review date
      • A plan for membership in the circle
    • do we want to bring more intentionality to the structures?
    • Nick: bring more intentionality (YES), experiment stuff and evaluating, what would enable tomek for example to participate? There is some overlap with the design process itself which is a frame to bring in different input (ask the expert). Sociocracy by the book might not neccesarily adjust to this…reflection on the design sessions in general. What have worked? What we want to throw away. Things can surface out from a looking on session/document on design sessions. Trying to make a structured process is really hard to get this regular participation.
    • Vas: don’t have much to add, easier to work with people now we’ve since each others faces (people in groups), have established a relationship. a forum post is probably not enough. personal connection is important. might make sense to have more of a structured process, e.g. in a karrot group have a forum to be able to share with the karrot team? so having messages directly in the karrot team group from the groups… more direct means of communication. not sure if anything makes any sense :slight_smile:
    • Nathalie: would like to see this kind of structure, based on assumption that we have the decision power, and we give it somewhere, which is probably actually the reality. more generally the topic of formalization of structure. different of feedback and decision power. aim of project circle, e.g. “design next conflict resolution feature”, could be more explicit about using the design process.
    • Vas: from some chats with Bruno, somehow decided not to follow the same path we did for the agreements feature, to be a bit quicker, and “good enough for now”, so didn’t open up the process so much, and less reporting. also have to take into account nlnet thing. how to balance possible funding to get with how open/participatory we are. have to submit MVP for conflict resolution by october, so needs to be part of equation.
    • Nick: decision power: if there is noone to enact a decision there is no much point in making a decision. Motivation (mainly intrinsic) and materials/resoruces available. Grousp of ppl making decisions and plans but totally disconnected with the ability. Alignement needs to exist. Counter-part:Develp sth that is already designed and clearly described (e.g. Freiburg group).
    • permacutlure design: make clear the boundaries you are working within
    • Nathalie: within project circle, can consider what needs to be represented, e.g. a developer, to represent software perspective, how to create ideal circle.
    • Nick: see’s two levels of stuff we’re talking about, how to move forward with conflict resolution design process, and the wider topics of governance of karrot project, which deserves it’s own space
    • Nathalie: maybe some of the sociocratic structures are too rigid for how we’re organising right now, maybe worth bringing the clarity though to the first design process meeting, to frame it more clearly, which is less than the full structural version
    • Vas: since there is already a process in place, some work done on breaking the silo, some input on karrot days, tending to meet tuesday night for breaking the silo. new ideas for experimentations, e.g. creating a circle, might happen more intuitively, e.g. reach out to people next week, if they join, open up the discussion, and check in with existing ideas. so build on top of existing pieces.
    • Nathalie: a lot of personal ponderings about sociocracy stuff, maybe winter is a good time for wider organisational structure reflection
      bruno lurking and enjoying the notes
      hey bruno :slight_smile:
      hope you aall having fun!
  • NLnet money came in!

  • evaluate our nlnet milestones situation

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • ponder “helpdesk” and/or community cafe sessions further [Nick, Vasilis]
  • reach out to people from karrot days about conflict resolution process, tag them on karrot, or send them a personal message [Vasilis]
  • karrot days next steps
    • what to do with the karrot days group
      • write a message on it! [Nathalie]
    • collecting the resources in a forum post [Vasilis, Nathalie…]
    • writing an article for general audience [Vasilis,…Nick interested in in happening and wondering how to support it :)]
  • background ponderings about karrot organisation structures, maybe to open up more in the winter after this season of work [anyone]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno (as punishment for bailing on us this meeting)m
  • checkout

Date: 2022-08-02 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Vas, Dave

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
    • next meeting: design meeting this evening

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • ponder “helpdesk” and/or community cafe sessions further [Nick, Vasilis]
    • something about history? and changing activity series? no view of activity history
  • reach out to people from karrot days about conflict resolution process, tag them on karrot, or send them a personal message [Vasilis]
    • maybe something for slow tuesday or co-working session
    • maybe shift co-working to thursday?
    • include Karolina
  • karrot days next steps
    • what to do with the karrot days group
      • write a message on it! [Nathalie]
    • collecting the resources in a forum post [Vasilis, Nathalie…]
    • writing an article for general audience [Vasilis,…Nick interested in in happening and wondering how to support it :)]
      • in progress :slight_smile:
  • background ponderings about karrot organisation structures, maybe to open up more in the winter after this season of work [anyone]

4. Discussion points

  • community cafe + banners
    • per-group banners could be nice / or pinned messages
    • could work like discourse → make any wall message into a banner
  • welcome dave
  • evaluate our nlnet milestones situation
    • Nlnet responsiblities
    • would love to not have deadline
    • we don’t need to fulfill everything
    • 1st October deadline
    • so two months!
    • we have other things in our life too…
    • for “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” we could come together and co-work together to make a manual
      • so maybe a first opening session to map the different ways contributors can join karrot
      • next co-working session we can do that
    • breaking the silo, getting close to deciding for next iteration of feature
      • maybe this week/next possible?
      • maybe finish idea of it this evening or next week…
    • “Refine display of places”
      • bruno, motivated to do some sketches, then get together for a session on that
    • “conflict resolution feature”
      • two aspects, improvement of existing one, without big changes
      • then another part of adding features to it
      • maybe in scope, notification system, voting method… a softer sanction
    • “Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot”
      • possibly see if somebody from co-op cloud ecosystem would be up for doing it?
    • maybe a call with Jos, with some tips?
    • onboarding new developers?
      • can be hard! and take time
      • maybe there are other developers from the past?
  • our design sessions / breaking the silo
    • public activities + share button (info + link)
    • signing up publically is a bunch more work, so can we avoid that for now? MVP…
      • … write a message?
  • stale issues on Github: Issues · karrot-dev/karrot-frontend · GitHub
  • intro to penpot design tool?
    • this evening
    • would be nice to have a design library for karrot
  • creating more intentional space for emotional/existential aspect of life?

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
  • schedule work on “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” to co-working session on the 10th of August
  • email Jos [Nick]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nick
  • checkout

Date: 2022-08-09 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Bruno, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Vasilis got a flat tire
    • next meeting:
      • design meeting this evening (8pm central europe)
      • co-working tomorrow as usual
    • pick facilitator for next week*: (* a few meetings ago we decided to try and do this in the opening section)
      • Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
  • schedule work on “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” to co-working session on the 10th of August, send reminder [Bruno]
  • email Jos [Nick]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

4. Discussion points

  • debrief server failure [R]
    • Sorry for the Karrot outage today (2022-08-06) 😭
    • one disk was broken but we don’t know for how long, Tilmann found out when he tried to reboot
    • took some time to find that out after it could not boot
    • a lot of organisational legacy stuff, back from Foodsharing days
    • got assistance from the provider Manitu and they were really nice in their support
      • there will probably be some costs (support + disk replacement?)
    • good to have at some point in the future our own server
    • Nick and Tilmann had to juggle a bit with their own plans, but it felt like a nice team work
    • it was a nice opportunity to make it human and not (work/service-like) professional to Karrot users
    • stressful situation, especially when it’s still not diagnosed
    • brings up the question of responsibility and vulnerability: if Tilmann and Nick were completely unavailable, would other people step up to fix it?
    • could other people in the team have been more supportive?
      • since it’s a very technical issue, not much in this sense, but not making it very serious and stressful helped
      • could we set up some kind of emergency routine?
  • update prototype testing [R]
    • testing with Daniel from Luxembourg yesterday
    • good insight, with ideas to fix some things
      • location: at the moment we create activities as part of a place, that may or may not have a location, and might be nice to be able to set a location directly for an activity
      • suggestion is that the email address should be verified (for signing up)
      • discussion around the chat, when could you join the chat? verify email? join chat before signing up?
        • if you want to ask a bit more about it, how would that work?
      • public activities being visible during the application process
        • e.g. introduction meetings to support onboarding processes
      • might be a view on the group preview page to see the public activities
      • some would be nicer to have as private links, rather than listed on the group preview page
      • might be able to facilitate better intergroup exchange, e.g. can click on another group and see what they’re up to
      • … and some notes to evaluate further
    • prototype itself had some more superficial issues, but didn’t affect the idea itself
    • testing with Dave tonight
    • do 1 or 2 more, but not a lot, and have it done :slight_smile:
      • also had an idea to test with non-karrot users
    • for the milestone?
      • going through notes and memories for this breaking the silo design process, and write a short friendly text/summary, and put on the blog…
    • nice continuing evolution of design process, with penpot tool, etc… hopefully can empower more people to lead these processes to evolve new ideas within karrot
  • money flow [R]
    • just making sure we did it all
    • end of august plan another money circle
      • look at who is receiving money and how much, and how people felt, check balance, new people, new wishes?
    • 1st november, review the whole agreement
    • activities updated on karrot
  • deadline (or other) stress [RE]
    • including nlnet stuff
    • nick: little pa"nick"! state (Nick) the amount of stuff and duration (1st of Oct) feel overwhelmed, ‘life struggles’ as well, resynchornize my brain with the state of reality
    • nat: totally relate, wasnt part of this agreement, I feel like extra (a bit), limited to the non-tech things, its good if some money come in but I m not super dependent on it, reconsider our relation with the funding
    • vas: also part of phd research, get pressure from supervisors to write, end of sept to write something for a conference, want to prioritise nlnet milestones, important the milestones are done to some extent, contributing to more than karrot, but personal lives of contributors, milestones signed up to are doable
    • bruno: thought a little already, felt a little pressure, really need to be more disciplined and mange time better, hopefully will manage to do them all, ambiguous feeling, a bit more stress, don’t like deadlines, but also a little pressure can be good, sometimes people perform better under pressure, giving structure/motivation, gives him a little more focus, trying to get balance, can relate to nicks feelings, reflections on sense of obligations, nlnet maybe used to projects like ours, if we have good communication should be no problem, are the obligation feelings about seeking validation from figures of authority? also pressure from financial aspects?
    • nathalie: nice to have a goal, giving some structure, low motivation so good parts of pressure, ideal would be if something is only for the money, not wanting that, but clashes with reality… leads to having no money. maybe we should say no to something in the milestones… not end up with a big crush in last week of september
    • vas: agree with nathalie, if we can decide in the next days that something isn’t happening, can remove some pressure? reflecting on relationships with funding institution, doesn’t currently feel like pressure from them, liked the approach to not be accountable to external orgs, but to the community (which would be totally different funding concept, e.g. crowdfunding), real-life is maybe a combination… was still good move to apply to it
    • bruno: I agree… continuous evaluation of what we’re going to make or scrap, do what we can do :slight_smile: maybe crowdfunding future is good…
    • nathalie: in context of karrot days, was it a distraction from the milestones?
  • update on data layer stuff [R]
  • GitHub issues
    • housekeeping stuff
    • some have been marked as stale, would like to check with others if they are really relevant
    • would be nice to have a clearer understanding of how to manage the issues and how to assess their relevance
    • maybe on another occasion, meeting, or co-working could evaluate them
    • we used to have roadmap meetings to organise them
    • maybe we can make some more specific tasks about how to go through the list
    • could be postponed until after nlnet deadline, maybe a good time to reflect how to do our own milestones

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • evaluate milestones in two weeks [all]
  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
  • email Jos [Nick]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min

  • checkout

Date: 2022-08-16 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Bruno
Participants: Bruno, Nick, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
    • next meeting: this evening 8 pm CEST design process, next week as usual
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • evaluate milestones in two weeks [all]
  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
  • email Jos [Nick]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

4. Discussion points

  • coding update [R]
    • screenshare
    • a lot of progress! Many things loading faster, such as long member’s lists, activities page
    • it will be more composable, components can fetch the data
    • try and get something to merge this week and do some testing
  • breaking the silo update [R]
    • started doing the write-up: Design process for public activities - HedgeDoc
    • blogpost style
    • comments and review welcome
    • reactions:
      • love these kinds of writeups
      • it’s really important thing
      • really happy to see it, feels inspired
      • little style questions - what language to use (slang)?
      • how to move forward with this, make a review?
      • idea: write something on banner, invite for testing
  • NLnet milestones [E/D]
    • do we want to drop some topics - that’s for next week
    • lot of coding right now
    • other projects are facing end-of-deadline stress too :slight_smile:
  • maybe Google Play User Data policy (email) [E]
    • two topics: do we need to act on it? aware of data policy handling in general…
    • gate keeper modell in app store which is a private company
    • do we like app stores?
    • annoying situation
    • two apps: karrot and karrot-dev
      • August 22 as deadline
      • updates will be rejected
      • it needs a privacy policy link
    • how many people use the app?
      • 900 active installs
      • 300 from south korea… (means confused with the south korean karrot app)
      • 80 each in poland, france, sweden
    • some extra work to keep it going
    • data privacy big topic in foodsharing.de always
      • very different to karrot
      • legal consequences are considered in foodsharing
    • good idea to inform users about data privacy anyway
    • less about legal perspective, but relationship with users
    • could postpone it for now? if it only impacts updates
    • how about f-droid store? or provide apk
    • app stores suck
    • positive to privacy policy themselves, but not rushing because of app store
    • human perspective privacy policy would be nice
  • banner on testing public activities prototype [D]
    • idea: short text with a link to more information on a forum post, where people can find the link to the prortotype
    • what about the frequency of putting up new banners? We don’t want to annoy people
    • how long will the banner stay up if it’s not closed?
    • latest post about outage was deleted. Last one about Karrot Days still shows
    • Manual deletion is required when banner message is not relevant anymore
    • propose to give Bruno all the power in the world to write the message on the banner MWUAHAHAAAAAA!!
    • metapoint: Nick doesn’t feel consent or permission is necessary on this topic
    • some fixing still needed on the prototype before putting up this banner

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Bruno]
  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min

  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-08-23 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Vasilis, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADINP
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • information: any non-karrot announcements? anyone had a baby?
    • next meeting:
      • this evening 8 pm CEST design process
      • coworking tomorrow morning
      • next week as usual
    • pick facilitator for next week: Vasilitator if available, backup is Bruno, backup backup Nick, backup backup backup Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Bruno]
    • contacted but quite busy at the moment, will ask a fellow volunteer
    • could follow up in a week or so
  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

4. Discussion points

  • nicks never ending data layer rewrite [R]
    • tilman said that we can merge it now! that felt nice. Old data layer removed completely
    • a bit of testing, Nathalie Bruno gave feedback, ‘Alpha’ testing
    • once its merged its not the end of it
    • One more review maybe + Tilman if he has a bit of time
    • this week it can be merged to master (dev.karrot.world)
    • another milestore is unlocked
    • new data layer was loading twice the speed
    • it feels stable for now. bits might need to be reworked in the future
  • Evaluate where we’re at with nlnet milestones [D]
    • Nlnet responsibilities: Nlnet responsiblities
      • Vasilis:
        • a few things working on with Bruno, would like to hear Bruno first
      • Nathalie:
        • 2 things on mind, roles feature writeup, need to sync with Nick about it, could be all completed!
        • a bit unsure about agreements feature, comes in 2 parts, writeup could borrow from roles feature writeup, not sure if MVP will be a thing it’s hasn’t come up much lately, milestone feels unsure
        • writeup for roles could be done in a few days and have some other time
        • document participatory processes doesn’t have a name assigned at the moment, so maybe could help out here
      • Nick:
        • a bit overwhelmed
        • migrate front end done
        • front end tests working on now
        • developer documentation, I m writing up a bit, wont put that as a main focus
        • roles is important to work on since its almost done, 2 dev parts in it, concept is pretty much there, trust for role feature ?
        • breaking the silo: an MVP looks possible to be done
        • agreements feature → not to prioritize it ( put it on the back burner)
        • refining places and activities: doesnt seem to have a lot of focus atm
        • conflict resolution: height priority
        • connect and engage with communities (supportive). be up for chatting
        • facilitating self-hosting: might be a good idea to work on it and take it more seriously
        • 5 weeks left, not enought to do, if tasks are not those big spirally ones it might be possible though
        • Should we try and say Jos about those that we are not sure we are doing?
      • Bruno:
        • breaking the silo: almost done, will be delivered for sure
        • improving conflict resolution: depends on our ambition, but my realistic plan to be able to deliver this one is to not do a new iteration of it and actually come up with easy to do changes to the existing one, such as the one came up with already about notifications, and decide on other ideas and feedback that we got, like changing the name to “user removal” or the voting system
          • not so much time for whole new iteration/concepts
          • so maybe more narrow specific improvements
          • less process
          • maybe a couple of meetings with more than just the core
          • could start some sketching on the new one, whatever we can manage in the time frame, to come up with new ideas, but a full process
          • should continue with it afterwards anyway
          • Design process conflict resolution - HedgeDoc
        • display of places:
          • pfffffwww yeah
          • a bit unclear, depending on scope, could still do something? also connected to editing place types?
          • schedule a session to see what is feasible? would need discussion to start seeing solutions, then could maybe do some work alone on it
        • Vasilis:
          • uuuhm ok, so…
          • wondering about the small improvements to conflict resolution… (bruno has a list, e.g. notifications, the naming, voting system?)
          • idea of softer sanctions? (bruno: maybe as another iteration that is not realistic in our timeframe)
          • by writing up karrot days article it’s a good basis for report about connecting and engaging with communities
          • then can focus on “Conduct and publish writeup into how Karrot is being used”, maybe the writeup fits this? adding a bit more detail from the interviews we did would make sense
          • would like to work on guide for participants how to contribute, feels very do-able, could dedicate 1 meeting to do some mapping collaboratively, to create a guide that can be pinned somewhere
          • been quite involved in breaking the silo, and shit, I’m a bit spaced out, what’s the other feature, and conflict resolution, happy to be wingperson in this still
        • scheduling things? (numbers in priority order 1 = important!)
          • meeting about MVP for breaking the silo this evening 1 1 1
          • Nick and Nathalie sync about roles feature 1 2
            • coworking tomorrow
          • participant guide co-working 2 5 2 6
            • solo coworking tomorrow for vas, to get us started… (could go async, via excalidraw), maybe nick/nathalie can join in there
          • a few sessions for conflict resolution sketching? with others? 2 2 4 4
            • using scheduling tool to work times of week, maybe next week some time… Bruno will set it up :slight_smile:
          • a bit more breaking the silo testing? 7 3 5
          • agreements feature sync (what is MVP and how would write up look?) 6 6 5 3 5
          • what is feasible about display of places and place type editing 7 7 5 4
        • are we still trying to do too much?
          • time window for cancelling things? is that window over?
          • and what about from team perspective? what can we manage?
          • proposing we could remove refine display of places/types/activities to remove?
          • but maybe there is a bit of time near the end we could do stuff in?
          • is there deadline extension possibility?
          • good to contact them
          • can we phrase it that we won’t get the milestones on time, and ask how to handle?
  • incoming emails to forum [E]
    • nice emails from people that go unasnwered
    • some quite old, e.g. feb
    • can view certain ones at https://community.karrot.world/g/foodsaving-mails/messages/inbox
    • how do they relate to foodsharing international stuff?
    • possible solutions?
      • immediate one, try to answer the ones that come in, explaining they reached karrot people, and here’s what we’re up to, etc…
      • less immediate, a bit more contact with foodsharing people, more like a team?
      • pre-written reply?
      • they keep coming in, and each time we say, oh it would be nice to reply, … and then don’t
      • try and redirect to best people? could be in karrot groups or foodsharing, or elsewhere
    • what to do with foodsaving.world?
      • archive it?
      • update it?
  • if time: NVC 3-session-intro [R/E]
    • came out of karrot session after talking about conflict resolution feature
    • Nathalie and Daniel talked about how they approached conflict in luxembourg
    • some followup on wall on Karrot days, John shared a link
    • they have a group-based course you can go at own pace
    • Nathalie will do this course $100-$220 (cheaper one sold out now though…)
    • backburner thing for Nick, Vasilis, and Bruno, but very interested
    • group-based online course

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]
  • review Brunos writeup of breaking the silo (“Conduct and publish writeup of design process”) [you? Vasilis]
  • write to Jos [Nick]
  • answer foodsaving e-mails [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2022-08-30 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • information: any non-karrot announcements? anyone had a baby?
      • Nathalie is IT Support Provider & Log Keeper in SoFA now
      • Nick will do ~3 months of fulltime capitalist work from mid-October
    • next meeting:
      • this evening 8 pm CEST design process?
      • coworking?
      • next week as usual?
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]
    • message was written, yesterday, no replies, yet leave it there
  • review Brunos writeup of breaking the silo (“Conduct and publish writeup of design process”) [you? Vasilis]
  • write to Jos [Nick]
    • nick wrote yesterday
  • answer foodsaving e-mails [Nathalie]
    • opening up foodsaving.world site to review it, and has access still
    • it has a bunch of useful info on it, maybe can be updated in places

4. Discussion points

  • data layer merged [R]
    • celebration!
    • nlnet rfp made
      • nick made another RFP, for data layer
    • when to deploy? soonish?
  • billing question from nathalie [E]
  • show Nick penpot work [R/E]
    • using penpot is liberating!
    • nice explorations coming soon on how “trust for [role]” can look/work

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • postpone to next week:

    • Money Circle: Look at who is receiving money and how much, and how people felt, check balance, new people?, new wishes? [R/E]
  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]

  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

    • check replies!
  • review Brunos writeup of breaking the silo (“Conduct and publish writeup of design process”) [you? Vasilis]

  • answer foodsaving e-mails [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2022-09-06 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Vasilis
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • information: any non-karrot announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • wednesday 7th September 20:00 CEST: Deciding on how to improve the existing conflict resolution feature
      • wednesday 7th September 10:00 CEST: co-working
      • next week
    • pick facilitator for next week: Vasilitator

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min

  • email Jos [Nick]

    • didn’t hear back
  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]

  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

    • check replies!
  • review Brunos writeup of breaking the silo (“Conduct and publish writeup of design process”) [you? Vasilis]

  • answer foodsaving e-mails [Nathalie]

    • I did starting with the most recent ones. There are still unanswered mails from march and before :confused:
    • reorganised the forum
    • still some unanswered ones

4. Discussion points

  • dev update [R]
    • two things (Nick and Tilman)
      • front end testing. now much more useful tests (screenshare from Nick). a few types of tests and we reach the milestone of 75%
      • participants types, see thread on karrot group #development
        • has a ‘feature’ flag, add manually for groups
  • review meeting time/ check with Bruno [E]
    • Nick: check with bruno first, also in context of doing other work from mid-October for some months…
    • Nathalie: good that we think about this too. Next step to find someone to check in with Bruno. More flexible evening times
    • Vasilis: flexible in changing time
  • handover NL milestone [R/E]
    • possible to hand over. its more sel-contained and techy/specific
    • coop cloud people
      • asked and there was interest
      • M. would do some work and get some money, L. will mentor him and also receive some money
      • +better development for self-hosters
      • already connected somehow with M.
      • what’s the connection to the money circle? Unclear the communication a bit, how is connected with the money. Task not combined to the money directly, the money part is part of the money circle. Is it expected to be linked? We unlinked the milestones from money ourselves so how is it going to work here. Process level to see the money agreement.
      • nick (again): confusion came from money agreement. we do have a money agreement in place.
      • a new use case now
      • was nice exercise to explain the detchment of Nlnet milestones from what people get as monetary contributions
      • external can fit the contributors. Any leftover goes to the pot
      • external should they come in the money circle or the core can decide on an issue/collab with an external?
      • i dont see it as super necessary for a new person to come in the money circle
      • mini proposal: lure him to the next tuesday meeting and in the meantime sort of chat with him. Karrot team group to join if he would like to
  • Money Circle: Look at who is receiving money and how much, and how people felt, check balance, new people?, new wishes? [E/D]
    • [Bruno copied from Karrot] I can express on my part that I’d like to continue receiving the same amount if there are no budget restrictions on that
    • current balance: 5196€
    • Bruno: 200€, Nathalie: 300€, Nick: 400€
    • nick doing some work from mid-october
    • nathalie getting a bit of money from SoFA too, receiving Karrot money feels good
    • idea for solidarity pot of money, for groups, or people
    • last month of uni funding for vasilis, spending savings, considering applying for karrot money in near future
    • 5196 / (200 + 300 + 400) is about 5 months left, only including 1 nlnet payment so far
    • proposal: keep numbers the same, but change the period for just next 2 months
      • consent from Nathalie, Vasilis, and Nick :slight_smile:
  • designs for trust for roles/ approved role
    1. Approved role (badges)
    2. Approved role (pop-up)
    3. current behaviour

Next time

  • welcome Luke/ Michal

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

(sry for delay)

Date: 2022-09-13 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Vasilitator and others
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • information: any non-karrot announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • Tomorrow the co-working
      • Tonight
      • next week
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
  • review Brunos writeup of breaking the silo (“Conduct and publish writeup of design process”) [Vasilis]
  • reach Bruno about General Call, time and day

4. Discussion points

  • our connection with Karrot at the moment [E]
    • Bruno: it feels quite positive, things are movin on, underline stress, reaching a deadline, looking forward to see the new feautures/significant changes, how groups will use it and give us more feedback, nt much time to do Karrot work last week, it felt good… Just generally positive
    • Nick: emotional, indications of doing other things to cover emotions, pushed way some local stuff, feels abstact sometimes…and stungling with that intagilbe part of connecting. Would like engage with stuff in bath. I struggle promoting it (Karrot?). I need more activating force to make things a bit more real. Sit with ppl, chat with ppl, when I do go in that directions turbulance emotions are brought up. Checked the other projects that see the potential of other similar projects like unity/karrot. A million networks that do not coperate at the end. This fucks with my head when I look on them all. Almost feel to be pushed in this other job which is not the rythm of life I m looking for. Let go a bit of Karrot and see what happens…I like this break/breathing. Leave space for someone else. There is the uncerntainty of the winter (metaphorically speaking). And the non-metaphorical. Instead of capitalist work put insulation in ppls houses.
    • Vasilis: in a mix between what bruno and nick said. have to be positive, in terms of karrot, deadline, committed, work my ass off… more like burnout coming, in terms of karrot. too many things, and too lonely. writing big texts. not sure it’s worth the effort, who’s going to read these things? also fun, and enjoyable, and going to be win/win for phd too… feel unmotivated at the same time. too much going on the last two months. not only with karrot. in zurich, every day come to meet new people doing nice “community” projects, but can’t really find the purpose behind them, or align. a bit of community-washing, green-washing… why do I judge them? don’t feel emotionally sober to be judging them fairly. just like some old guy that knows everything saying “you kids don’t know shit”, don’t feel good in that role. need a celebration after nlnet deadline, not sure what though. since not in the right headspace, takes ages to do something that shouldn’t spend so much time on. e.g. going through notes for way too long. should take 1.5h, but takes a whole day. mixed feelings. inspired by Bruno saying he feels positive. (“THINK POSITIVE!” says bruno in an ironic tone mimicing a positivity coach). this chat is super important to have, even though we “should” be running to the milestones… nice to create the space for this.
    • Nathalie: notes on sociocracy and NVC, in the last sesion we talked about I have to and I should do. The should is kind of judging path. How u rephrase it to choose to and not choose to. We choose to talk about NLnet milestones. We could also say that we do not choose to talk about the NLNet milestones. It is quite interesting to know and think about those choises. OK. back to Karrot. I def noticed that I need to rebalance a bit with the increasing bit I m doing with SOFA also struggle a bit there to do the hours I commited to. There are other things, in terms of NLnet and milestones I am also to finish the things I ve commited, I m still quite relaxed about hte things and I can manage, it feels like a lingering pressure but ontheotherside my focuses leved increased again. I noticed I havent been in this project space for a year. I was actively missing to do some work things but not it feels nice to have some tasks now but I m sensitive not to overcomit and make it a slow progression. The only bit I am struggling is the structuracoe…what’s this team…how it compares to the community…not that I struggle but…I like believing in things I do…the deeper I go (in sociocracy)…try to make it sense in a general way. Is it now the new standard for me? Also I should be aware of having some more flexbility. I find it diffucult with contibution/roles that are not rooted in a communication net. It is more of a theoritical concern.
    • it is nice having those convos. It feels like a breathing out (nick), expressing my own bit of life but listen to others.
    • standing up about this fringe work…small talk kind of thing (so what do u do??). I stick on my pretty ‘normal’ job which sounds pretty straitfoward. Non commecial stuff that I dont get money from…explaining Karrot is not that straightfoward. It kind of sucks having this that all the time u have to explain yourself.
    • recently self-employed…this feels more like ppl can relate to. I m getting a bit back/closer to society. I do see the rising costs now…it is actually in a weird sense…i do enjooy a bit the connecting bit of it. Its not that I can cut out society completely. I belived that for a bit. I m now reviewing this cut-off and it now feels nice to back a bit. I feel that I am going a little bit more to a more accepted by society state.
    • Resonate a lot with being back connected to society and see the struggles. I feel more connected.
    • Tricky tning is to be connected but get the space to do your other things (in and out)

Watched that after the break!:

  • We agreed we’d decide on whether to change the voting system for issues by end of this meeting. See Design process conflict resolution - HedgeDoc for some notes there.[E]
    • Nathalie: voting system: I would keep as it is and the rest I m happy to revisit this evening
    • Bruno: pass #idontcareaboutkarrot
    • Nick: my quick sense is that we keep what we have. Minor changes. Potentially we open up more we can handle if we openup the voting system. Didnt sound like a screaming need. Still nice to improve but for now we could keep the current one
    • Vasilis: not a lot of people mentioned issues with the voting system, would like another one, but if we just added another one it might have it’s own issues
  • new standard time for weekly call?
    • bruno, evenings
    • vasilis, mon/tue seems useful
    • continue to think/discuss… online
    • a poll?
  • dev/nlnet update [R/E]
    • another rfp submitted :slight_smile:
    • tilmann
      • place type editing
        • mergeable very soon
      • places display
        • start on, bruno sketching, … chats on karrot
      • trust for role
        • has looked at nathalies penpot designs
        • tilmann/nathalie can connect on it
    • nick
      • participant types
        • need: help working stuff, see Karrot (and scroll down a bit)
      • conflict resolution
        • hopefully decide stuff that can be developed from now
      • public activities
        • aiming to start on it next week
        • bruno can evolve prototype if more ideas, not a lot significant though
        • aiming for minimal features
      • agreements
  • michal / co-op cloud update [R/E]
    • have shared with michal how money/technical/organisational stuff should work
    • time limit is tricky, enough time for next week? or async/meeting?
    • decision/objections to be raised online?
    • nick to continue arranging stuff, share things in karrot, include time/location of meeting if/when organised
    • also nice to invite to next call, not just/only for decision stuff, but also social side, getting to know
  • communities using Karrot report updates [R]
    • takes more time then expected, feels lonely, but also somehow nice, reflecting back on what we’ve learned
    • interesting that we have so much input from the groups, but then have to face reality of the MVP
      • opening up the process, so many ideas that make sense
      • and then in real life not so easy to implement them, nice to admit
    • plan to have it finished within a week, each interviewing taking a day to decode, making notes on notes, thinking how to make readable text, not just bullet points, something people can read and make sense of, and we can read it too
    • quite dynamic what happens in the groups, quite a bit of input during covid, would be interesting to see how groups deal with stuff now, everything had got quite remote, and aspect of community fading out, so how is it changing now?
    • tonnes of information! about all the different groups, each group has it’s own ecology, super interesting, one way to decentre karrot as the focus, karrot is the medium/faciliator, but alongside karrot there are other faciliators
    • getting more involved in foodsharing.de in zurich, time online on foodsharing.de compared to not online… digital is just a tiny bit of the ecology, but very important and central. focusing on small tool, spending hours on hours discussing about really small part of the chain… and also super important.
  • walk through screenshare of place type editing [R]

Next time

  • plan a release after Nlnet’s deadline [E]
  • plan a celebration after Nlnet’s deadline [E]
  • welcome Luke/ Michal

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • continue exploring new standard time for weekly call [?]
  • code like mad!

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

1 Like

Date: 2022-09-20 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: Nick and some mystery person
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Vasilis, Michal

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • information: any non-karrot announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • Tomorrow the co-working: 10:00 CEST
      • Tonight - Conflict Resolution Feature or co-working: 20:00 CEST
      • next week
      • last weekend before deadline \o/
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
    • in construction
  • review Brunos writeup of breaking the silo (“Conduct and publish writeup of design process”) [Vasilis]
  • continue exploring new standard time for weekly call [?]
  • code like mad!
    • indeed :slight_smile:

4. Discussion points

  • welcome Michal / co-op cloud task [R/E/D]
    • 2 milestones related to co-op cloud
    • we looked for help in the matrix chat
    • that’s why Michal is here :slight_smile:
    • 2-3 developers (from co-op) wanting to work on it
      • Michal, vlaf, +1
    • October 1 is deadline for Nlnet
    • we are trying to get milestones work
    • work seems doable in that timeframe
    • documentation for self-hosting?
      • don’t think there is anything
      • https://docs.karrot.world/ a bit outdated
      • but that’s the place to have a page for documentation
      • bonus task
      • but would be useful
    • what about the rate/ money
      • that’s our money agreement: Money distribution in Karrot
      • Karrot doesn’t have a legal entitiy
      • we have one ‘Karrot bank’ account
      • 3 contributors receive money (200€-400€)
      • we started as volunteers
      • we make our own agreements :slight_smile: and we’re here together
      • if we complete the milestone, we get all the money
      • for the milestones: 1500€ (1000€ + 500€)
        • Add Karrot to co-op cloud tool (1000EUR)
        • Add documentation for self-hosters (500EUR)
      • proposal: give 1500€ to dev-team, discuss in Michal’s co-op if they want to take whole amount, let us now
      • what happens if Nlnet doesn’t approve?
        • good to mention
        • we’ll see and have another chat
  • dev update [R]
    • place display
    • public activities
      • screenshare from Nick
      • amazement from Nathalie and Vas
      • hope to have it well enough until friday
    • participant types
      • go through the wording with Nathalie
      • then it’s mergeable
      • huuuuge thing
      • almost done done done
    • trust for role
      • Nathalie and Tilmann met about it (VERY OFFICIALLY)
      • some notes somewhere
      • revisited some of the origins and use cases of trust system
      • main question outcome: “how to get approved role”
      • brought scope back down again, getting something usable right now
      • focusing on the two roles editor, approved, and getting it to work for luxembourg
      • how much do we put behind the feature flag?
      • working towards a separate button for approved role
        • with maybe a different icon
      • tilmann now coding from the notes
      • also perhaps including naming the roles on the profile page
    • improved UI for creating activities
  • walk through for participant types language stuff (nick/nathalie) [D]
    • could remove raw json parts of history info thing… even if just participant types for series change?
    • missing icon for “meeting no longer available” notification, an X cross type of thing
    • one notification per activity removed to include the date/time in the message
      • all link to the same history still (which is the only place that they can see the custom message in the UI)
    • when editing the series description, the activities are not being updated…
    • make the push notifications mirror what the notificaions do (e.g. 1 per activity), and use the custom message as the body… (make sure to include name of person who wrote it too)

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • next time
    • plan a release after Nlnet’s deadline [E]
    • plan a celebration after Nlnet’s deadline [E]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
1 Like

Date: 2022-09-27 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Nick, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: within 1h
    • information: any non-karrot announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nathalie is now only visitor in Kanthaus
    • next meeting:
      • Tomorrow the co-working: yes
      • Tonight: see activity sign-up
      • next week
        • nick will be likely travelling/elsewhere next week… but will try and join (fun) calls

        • 7pm CEST: Let’s celebrate together with a drink our 10 month effort and dedication in building new features/process and documents

        • Karrot

    • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • continue exploring new standard time for weekly call [?]
    • maybe broaden to a more general assessment of how we are working in/with karrot over the winter

4. Discussion points

  • update

    • place type editing UI RFP still pending
    • RFP for participant types submitted
    • trust for role on it’s way
    • roles write-up finished, to be published \o/
      • someone else will need to submit it
      • aren’t doing a lot of reviews on the write-ups, so would follow that approach
      • is quite nice :slight_smile: (well, hope so)
    • improved place display, merged! not yet RFP’d
      • Nick to submit RFP, checking with Tilmann first
    • public activities
      • just need to a few tweaks following review, then merge and RFP
    • conflict resolution improvements
      • address review comment, fix test, merge, RFP
    • agreements feature …
      • focus on listing, creating, updating, deleting (CRUD) agreements
      • no decision process around it
      • possibly a chat for each agreement…
      • could add review date
      • behind feature flag
      • open field for when it was agreed
      • had a lot of thoughts around generalized decision processes, using sociocratic models, and bringing together with membership review / conflict resolution
      • the future is bright, the future is social
    • self-hosting task: on it’s way! see matrix karrot-dev channel
  • RFP questions

    • If you’ve indicated the right amount for each task, you are almost done! Now all we need to know is how to verify these results. We very much appreciate your help in providing us with some guidance here: you know your way around your own project like probably noone else. Please provide direct links, preferably with a short description what we will find. The more complete and targeted information you provide here, the quicker we are able to evaluate your work. Thank you for your help!
    • Check the task description in your project plan and make sure that every subtask and deliverable is covered - this may cost a bit of time extra right now but saves a lot of time going back and forth.
    • two fields:
      • Please provide links to the achieved results in the task identified above, e.g. release notes, blog posts, updated documentation, and anything else you think could help us.
      • If you have any other remarks (e.g. change of your address or bank account, specific requests on how to label your payment, etc), these can go here.
    • so for Nathalie, Bruno, Vas, wanting Nick to submit the RFPs, please tell him an answer to those questions :slight_smile:
  • where to publish write-up, documentation etc.

    • proposal: forum (link to pdf/ attachment to forum) and github repo for source files (pdf, images, latex file, doc file). Nathalie will create repository and support uploading, everyone can do a forum post for their own thing (where it seems fitting). Further outreach tbd next time.
    • agreed!
  • plan a release after Nlnet’s deadline [E]

    • another time :slight_smile:
  • plan a celebration after Nlnet’s deadline [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • check with Tilmann then submit RFP for place display [nick]
  • public activities tweaks, merge, RFP [nick]
  • conflict resolution tweaks, merge, RFP [nick]
  • people can submit writing-RFPs to nick, include answers to questions [not-nick]
  • create github repo for document files [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout