fetival idea is part of Erasmus+ project of 60kEUR
runs out november, most money spent in/by august
project co-ordinators paid a few hundred per month, money will not last so long
project co-ordinator per country, Daniel co-ordinates for luxembourg
festival planned to be in august
focused on: belgrium, luxembourg, germany
the festival is only 1/3 of the whole project
some more possiblities on how Karrot could collaborate with this
1st obvious one is festival, will be in luxembourg in the countryside
want some time dedicated for people only in the foodsaving community,pre-festival perhaps
then “cola” (collaborate) festival, merging the two festivals
so having a foodharing village for the festival
curent thinking is 1st day closed, 2nd/3rd day open to general pulic
so workshops for general public later, foodsaving, sociocracy, etc
could be an opportunity for karrot people to meet, could have a stand, workshops, etc… workshops could be for movement or general public
very flexible state right now ideas welcome
fairly offgrid festival, so less good for focused computer stuff
size of festival? 50 people from foodsaving, movement, and more for general festival, 300-400 at least (ther pepole said no problem for 2000,3000 people)
who is co-ordinator for germany? Jonas Heintz, ambassadar for saarbrucken, in leuven Bianca Drepper
festival would be over a weekend
childcare considerations? not planned yet
could also do stuff before the festival
would be cool to meet in belgium/luxembourg before… foodsavin leuven is also involved, could have a weekend to ourselves
daniel already met with leuven, and discussed problems they have with karrot
problems they both encounter with big groups
Q: how do you deal with language? english as a common language
Q: the bit before the meeting? could karrot make use of some of the funding for travel? (sleeping could be elsewhere?), have money for travelling, could imagine finding a thing for us coming, Daniel would think to provide room/food/etc, up for discussion
Q: is it open to other countries to participate? can have different target groups. most of the money needs to go to the 3 countries, but could pay for people not from those countries to give a workshop, festival itself will be totally open, just more financial support for people from those countries
bruno is surprised that Leuven is so big now! ~250 peeps
reactions!
Bruno: yayaaaaayayayyyy! very good idea! would be very happy to join, current situation is tough to leave for foreign lands having 2 small kids, not completely unlikely, seems a great opportunity! exited and supportive for everybody else, yeah, will see if maybe can make it, weekend makes it more likely, would be fun to be able to bring franz, maybe with informal childcare
Nick: sounds really exciting, enthusiastic, brewing the idea to go on a trip and visit groups myself, meeting in person is very important, trip with a purpose, would be good anker points, first bit as a ‘business meeting’ and also making connections with Leuven, Vas might be really interested too, festival sounds connecting, pluging into an wider community, appropriate for Karrot to have a presence
Nathalie: pretty amazing! a bit overwhelmed by the potential of this funding, and a new experience to have such a big pot of money, esp. in the context of the festival (also with some mixed feelings in there), really nice to think of karrot and the connection, so would be great to be at the festival and do something. for the other meeting, got excited before about going to göteborg, how many team meetings do we want to do though? is 2x to luxembourg too much? could connect at the festival? and see each other in another place in europe? 50 people from foodsaving movement is way too small, could be many more who are interested (particular from german side), people travelling from all over Germany for foodsharing.de festival in Berlin. people might be up for joining from further away depending on how it is explained. some talks about it how aligned with foodsharing festival
Daniel: happy to hear we find it cool, both ideas how can we make it that both things work. more productive focus for pre-meeting and could work on something concrete, and festival more leisure. depends on how we are and how we want to set the focus. if trying to do stuff at the festival, they will be busy and/or not even present as lots will be going on. probably will meet cool people at festival.
Vasilis in Nicks head: enthusiastic to meet how to deepen our relationships with groups
Bruno: rather focus on meeting Leuven, Luxembourg, more of a productive meeting, ideally doign both but maybe not having the time
is there a deadline for us to decide?
festival: hear back in February
other meeting: 2 weeks from now, so Daniel can put it into the budget, meeting can happen anytime
knowledge sharing: how to enable feature flag features [E] [Nathalie]
at the moment it’s in the database
opening a python shell and manipulating the data
Nick loves sharing the knowledge
maybe not the most useful thing to know
given a limited time: focus on how to enable it for groups to do it themselves
2 types
on/off (agreements)
more than on/off (roles) - configure name etc
that would need an interface in the settings
another tab where activity types are
start mocking up an user interface would be more useful
support groups on how to use these features
help people learning more tech stuff
reactions:
Nathalie: glad to finally talk about it! nice to know what it actually involves (a python shell on the server), nice to think about where we put our energy, motivation to learn about it shifted, nick and tilmann seem available enough to do it if needed, although would be more people to do. interface would make it obsolete.
Bruno: interesting to hear about the role feature, didn’t know how configurable it was with just a missing interface, and available for adding as many roles as the group likes, would be possible to configure more roles for the group (but the user interface for giving trust for other roles is not generic yet)
we got two emails from groups in Italy right after each other, each had a diferent vibe
other group more grassroots/activist/phd mission-aligned stuff
recup doing a lot of foodsaving, in rome and milan, with ~80 volunteers (not sure if across both cities or not), do pickups and want to expand, they have different channels on a messanger, and sign into pickups via a google form.
had a call with someone from recup and someone from frankfurt, pushing for recup to use a more specific software tool, felt like nice advertising for karrot
a sense maye governance features, e.g. application, membership review, a bit overwhelming, currently in a process to figure out their goverance
hard to find the balance of telling them about governance features vs telling them about the core activity-related features
fun to do these kind of calls, esp. when there are groups already
get quite a few emails from individuals on the forum, but that can be a long path to getting started, so nice when there is a group already there
reactions/questions/comments:
Daniel: is it the first foodsaving/foodsharing group in italy? (there are groups… but the unique thing in recup is being in 2 cities, so mostly very local activities. there are some inactive groups in italy.).
Bruno: wondering if italy has more informal stuff, e.g. in Spain experienced more informal relationships with stores, and a lot of individual foodsaving, like dumpster diving, informal relationships where someone knows someone working in the shop. level of organisation might be related to the culture. interesting to hear about recup. would be nice to do a followup, applying to group, seeing what goes forward. there is a followup call scheduled on march 21st.
Nick: so many things going on under the radar, different cultures and different countries, in UK big NGOs see to be popular, motivating to hear that smaller groups exist, how to introduce the governance stuff? experienced this myself, 18 people on group now, didn’t mention governance tools to them, is there an overall governance principle for Karrot, we could point people to those resources
UP next
where do we store our agreements (forum, Karrot team, both) and how do we keep them updated (if more than one place) [E/D] [Nathalie]
intro: the money agreement we had on the forum, the app/PWA agreement we have as an agreement in the group. Nathalie added the money agreement to the group agreements too. Do we maintain both places for agreements? To which one do we (as a team) refer primarily?
5. Actions/Outcomes
engage with feedback workflow on forum [Bruno et al]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
Date: 2023-01-13 19:30 CET
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vas
Minutes: everyone
Participants: Vas, Nathalie, Sven, Nick
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 1h30 total
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working [vas], [nathalie]
next Friday general: yes
pick facilitamtor for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Nick
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
5 min
engange with feedback workflow on forum [Bruno et al]
4. Discussion points
getting a beer from the fridge [ANYONE]
where do we store our agreements (forum, Karrot team, both) and how do we keep them updated (if more than one place) [E/D] [Nathalie]
intro: the money agreement we had on the forum, the app/PWA agreement we have as an agreement in the group. Nathalie added the money agreement to the group agreements too. Do we maintain both places for agreements? To which one do we (as a team) refer primarily?
Nathalie: if it would be possible to bridge in between both. On the forum its still good. Agreements on the group the main place, forum the extra communication. Automatic updated thing?
Nick: expand the topic out a bit: karrot group that relates in the forum. each tools offer something, missmash of tools to use. Buidling Karrot and use karrot, so makes me think what in the forum is really useful. The fact that is public is the main thing. transparency culture (unity stuff). missing if those info are not publicly available. Why karrot is so closed? (the group). Karrot team and feedback? Click around with no account? quite fitting and more transparent? If that was the case would it be sufficient? A public view only. Whole thing, sections? Not all or nothing, or some stuff? public activities? publish agreements by default? Bigger topic? How to support more transparency? Presnet reality, I like the feauture its a nice thing to have as the official agreement inside the Karrot team, forum gives the transparency. Not spend the time to do an automated thing, if it was easy the benefit would be there.
Vasilis: thinking a bit about the karrot team group being private, the application proess is quite nice as a welcoming step
sven asked: hi Im just here for some questions meanwhle after my recent first visit at that meeting (while those questions refer about new user signups but aren’t mentioned in faq, policy nor that third similar section?)
if I m tryng to be user? sign up or the login button?
allow people to add multidays event if its a public event
festival/ Karrot meeting(s)
two seperate things
update/summary: Daniel joined, presented thoughts: 1. more focused meeting, productive, focused on what we do; big groups e.g. Leuven. Needs to know in the next week: in person meeting in Belgium. 2. A festival which would be broader; funding is german speaking countries. August, somewhere. Will go ahead. 1st one productive stuff and focus, festival we attend, good for social stuff but less focus on Karrot maybe. People that where there.
Nick: interested to attend both, Bruno quite constrained by childcare; support either with childcare.
Nathalie: Funding comes from Erasmus+ comes through foodsharingAkademie, cooperation with Lux. How I got it is that we can use this funding meeting belgium, luxemburg, ? thing. Coordinators, 3 country coordinators. I would join both.
Vasilis: I would join both. festival idea seems far away, meetup would need some more co-ordination from our side, we could prepare a workshop. put idea on table: as belgirum and luxembourg are close, could go to some pickups with people, see how they run things and do distributions. don’t want to just go into a room and just talk about karrot, how we get maximum out of it. if it’s possible to combine both countries. did daniel mention duration?
decision to make the karrot group the official place for agreements, and we copy them to the forum
transfer the PWA agreement to the forum [Nathalie]
Nathalie got promoted from moderator to admin on the forum [Yay!]
find a place where we can have disc to organise it? Karrot? a thread could be enough [Nick]
clarify what the offer is? how is going to interact with the structure?
nick will share the meeting time with social systems lab if anybody wants to join [Nick]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
Nathalie got promoted from moderator to admin on the forum [Yay!]
find a place where we can have disc to organise meeting in Lux? Karrot? a thread could be enough [Nick]
Nick made a post in he Karrot group
it’s on Daniels side
ball is in his court
nick will share the meeting time with social systems lab if anybody wants to join [Nick]
meeting happened!
4. Discussion points
Today:
question about emails in the forum [Nathalie]
if someone writes an email and it comes to our email section in the forum and then also registers
do they see the whole email conversation thread?
will my reply be also send by email?
someone liked a reply I’ve written and I got confused about visibility
but it’s sweet if they do see the whole thread themselves
note: I could also do a bit of testing myself…
Nick: don’t know exactly, forum works that everything is a forum thread. for emails coming in: creates staged user, only has email address, what I guess happened: staged account converts into real one. private message thread is now like a ‘normal’ message thread, default is likely that an email is sent each time
forum is discourse (software) not discord
open new topic “Weekly call about Karrot development 2023” and move calls from January
Nathalie could do in next co-working - yes please
report on social systems lab [Nick]
call with Tim in Cape town
they are building a tool called “circles”
big picture: people who want to make a better world make profiles
possible way to find group to fund
very positive about Karrot - we have actual users!
everyone continues doing their thing
maybe funding opportunity for Karrot?
Hylo also a similar software
Reactions:
the topic of how to get funding is interesting
a bit of talk about buying abandoned buildings to make cool things
stay connected and have a sense of what’s going on is nice
really confusing this world of funding
maybe interesting to look into Hylo
a bit of talk about crypto investment
approach reminds me of effective altruism
group asks us to remove users from group [Nick]
talk general now
Nick got an email, maybe it will be sent to info@karrot.world
we might want to have a policy
do we intervene with group membership/ how much
we refused in the past
implement a feature would be ideal
emergency removal?
input for feature discussion
membership review not appropriate for all cases?
Q:
How time critical? wasn’t mentioned, they will likely send an email to the karrot mail
conversation:
tricky
wary about being overwhelmed with the situation/ of long emails
is getting information already getting involved?
first reaction: NO, would need to think about it more
again: policy would be good!
1)
- no we won’t do it
- we can understand need and try to incorporate it into feature
2)
- no we won’t do it in general
- we can understand need and try to incorporate it into feature
- we have an emergency procedure for removal of group members
what is not working with the membership review?
we don’t want to be part of the group’s governance, also that’s not how Karrot is build
what about technical request?
if they figured it all out and it’s only about the technical removal only
they’re internal governance differes from what the software offers
relation to foodsharing is interesting, what can we learn?
what about if this happens to ‘Karrot Team and Feedback’? there is no other group we could ask
Next:
money review February 2023
Nick: 100€
Nathalie: 400€
Bruno: 200€
Vas: 230€
account: 17 824,98€ on 18.01.2023 (Nick still needs to do the transfer for January)
Nathalie encourages everyone to use the feedback feature after activities
decline application from Adrian and sorayavw to Karrot Team and Feedback group due to lack of communication and say that they can re-apply any time [Nathalie]
5. Actions/Outcomes
engage with feedback workflow on forum [Bruno et al]
open new topic “Weekly call about Karrot development 2023” and move calls from January
Nathalie could do in next co-working
update meeting dates in forum intro post [Nathalie]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
7. Conversation after the meeting
two questions about the profile [Sven]
Nathalie and Sven will stay and discuss
do we need both Username and Display name? on karrot.world
yes
change Display name later is possible
can not change Username later
add to registration page info about Username and Display?
Sven: sort by “all time”, right section “time read” stays fixed on top somehow, others are sortable instead
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
meeting format - open questions in beginning and then carry on to other topics in smaller round?
giggles nature of the call. Intro session in the beginning. Unsure when I know that someone needs more time to come to the same level. Feeling of uneasyness.
vas: get the point, don’t have a suggestion right now, when joined the group felt a bit excluded through lack of information, over time could participate in more topics, was interesting, found my way without having someone mentoring
nick: acceptance to the flow, how does a more intentional approach would look? Karrot energy low at the moment due to paid work, proper onboarding would be nice, we don’t have that, being realistic at the moment what I can do
sven: this call is public, can I share a link to the forum?
nathalie: thinking about what the “karrot team” is, and wanting a bit more formalised idea of what this is, would appreciate a clearer intention, not so comfortable with the openness/fluidity
vas: 2 points, direct towards sven: 4th meeting having joined, would be interested in feedback, how included, excluded, what could help out, to gradually to feel more mutually comfortable, 2nd point, about sharing link to other people who want to join, at the moment couldn’t imagine how to combine a meeting with specific organising, and new people that haven’t used karrot, don’t see it working, or good use of time, can’t introduce karrot to everyone and work on our tasks
nick: it all makes sense, right now quite fluid and open because I can’t do a lot Karrot, like having open space available, monthly community call would be that open space, would be nice to have those regular, would need resources to organise, right now we are minimally operating, in favor of clear intentions, reform intention of this call, helps clarify for people outside, no capacity to work at this topic at the moment
sven: planning to create a profile, let newcomers know that there is Karrot, notice errors and bugs, report tiny things, interested in meeting for newcomers
I do like the idea of the community calls, to seperate the spaces, newcomer call would improve the situation m
money review February 2023 [D]
Nick: 100€
Nathalie: 400€
Bruno: 200€
Vas: 230€
account: 17 824,98€ on 18.01.2023 (Nick still needs to do the transfer for January)
vas: has been great the last 3 months, an cover part of rent, can keep it how it is from my pov, would be glad, also open to discuss as group
nathalie: yes, it still feels like i ve been kind of constant, previously 300 and will like to stay at the same rate if ppl have no ‘objections’
Nick: will like to keep it the same amount for now, I d like to review it at some point but not atm
review money: in 2 months
we didnt ask bruno…but will assume ;D
Nathalie encourages everyone to use the feedback feature after activities [R]
we all listen, nod, and smile (and will likely continue not using it, but maybe, just maybe we do :))
bump to next week:
decline application from Adrian and sorayavw to Karrot Team and Feedback group due to lack of communication and say that they can re-apply any time [Nathalie] [D]
reminder on Karrot for money review, end of march normal meeting [Nick]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
Date: 2023-02-03 19:30 CET
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilis
Minutes: All
Participants: Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie, Nick
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 20.00/21.00
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: YE
next Friday general:
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Bruno
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
5 min
engage with feedback workflow on forum [Bruno et al]
reminder on Karrot for money review, end of march normal meeting [Nick]
4. Discussion points
decline application from Adrian and sorayavw to Karrot Team and Feedback group due to lack of communication and say that they can re-apply any time [Nathalie] [D]
accept or decline? We never declined applications before - oh no we did decline!
Nick sugggest we decline them, Bruno as well since they either found their place or not or they are not on Karrot as well, keep it a bit clean with
the applications, they can always apply again, go with my proposal to decline, Vasilis: decline them
changing series message experience [Nick]
local group bioregional, we use it for comuncations we have a 6month review period and I will try and facilitate a session, icrease the
level of interaction, before it would be e-mails and cc, was daunting as such. Activities for coordinating is used and ppl sign up even 2 months in adcvance
atm there is monthly meetings and wanted to change the time for one event of a series, so what the person did, someone changed the time for the whole activity and
what happend is that it removed the activity and ppl get a notification/warning. This deleted the whole activity chat, I was frustrated with the event, I ended up not going to the meeting at all. Interesting experience of the feature. There is a githug issue to change the time in one event of a series, needs to change the code of how u generate activities.
-Nathalie: experienced myself, with the co-working session, its a bit more tricky, feels normal to me to remove ppl from the slots if an event changes.
-Bruno: Disable an activity? Show an activity as disabled. Of course the ppl should be notified somehow. A notification with a msg. I might agree with the chat bit that it stays there, it stays as a history thing.
-Nick: 2 levels, 1st level disables activities but not deletes them 2nd regigging how the activities work that is quite sensitive code though. Might be worth making the 1st change before that.
I did start fixing it but stopped for now.it is satisfying when I can find the bug myself
Deploy with bug fix? [D]
Bruno I was thinking about the editor when u type stuff. its on dev now. important fix we should try and put it live? More testing? Nick: its only partially fixed. Not deployed on dev. There is some work left to do then.
Design process: next iteration roles feature [E/D]
Design process place there was a msg, idea to work on the roles feature again, the trigger was that there could be more roles, but we dont know how it would look like. We dont really have a very clear picture of how roles would look like. Interested to work on this (Nathalie) and I would appreciate if its within the desing process. Bruno leading though it? We didnt yet talk about the time or the time frame. Didnt schedule a first call, either we try to schedule the 1st call or take about the timeframe…
Bruno: could be slow tuesdays? in the coming weeks I ll have more free time during the day. Evenings are a safe bet, not wednesday, first on could be to just define the scope, the lenth, try to see how much work, sessions… Preparatory session
Nick: I think its great, feeling a lot of appreciation, i think it can enable some nice organising, getting the head around it seems nice and i d like to able to support that from my side.
Vasilis: up for that
Weekly meeting time [E/D]
Nathalie: I think its friday meeting time was a compromise, I personally notice that is friday evening is getting to a point, I m on the edge, today was fine but sometimes is arched to the weekend so i dont have. I am bit happy with the evening, but not sure about the friday one.
Nick: Not a good feeling for me as well, but suprisingly energising, end up appreciating the ppl, what we speak…it is a nice boost. The only time to do it atm. I m
Bruno: Not the best time for me either, usually quite tired, easily end up forgetting about it. so we could change to another evening. Wait a couple of weeks ‘the ordeal will be over’ i d have more time soon, will know more less how my schedule will be. I suggest we wait for some weeks and we revisit that
Onboarding to Karrot calls/Karrot team [E] (next time)
Check how groups are doing with new features [E] (next time)
5. Actions/Outcomes
engage with feedback workflow on forum [Bruno et al]
upadete the git on changing series activities experience [Nick]
to open up the discussion on our Karrot group about a design series on roles feature? [Vasilis]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
to open up the discussion on our Karrot group about a design series on roles feature? [Vasilis]
4. Discussion points
Mini Update from Daniel [R]
14.02 meeting meeting, than we know more about our meeting
18th august for festival mayybeee (psst)
meeting in Luxembourg/ Belgium - not decided yet
email from mariha, bring conversation to friday call, review existing rules? [Vas]
we don’t take notes here
give it a bit more time, we’ll revisit the topic next week!
continue conversation about how to join the Karrot Team in general [all]
Onboarding to Karrot calls/Karrot team [E]
trial pick-up in foodsharing, not to ‘test’ people, but to learn the culture
giving enough context to new people
thinking about own onboarding
frame conversation within our culture - get to know culture
Katies paper about Stockholm, people drained from doing onboarding over and over again
we shouldnt have really open mmeetings like drop in whenever u want. this can disrupt a lot, in terms of onboarding, a simple process or decision, weekly meeitngs are invite only? frame it in a different way, sounds quite ‘arogant’ by thet sounds of it, but if someone shows an interest that it makes sesnse, yeah letst talk about it, comes to the meeting, becoming part of the time is more orgnanic, as we walk develop and gather exp we see thins that work r not. somethings can be completely open or others can be ‘invite-only’ kind of thing. A comment, not anyparticular onnboarding process, i suggest maybe that we restrain the participation so maybe we remove some info: ‘if u want to join let us know’ have a pre-chat: that is a little bit of an onboarding process.
2 things here: one-one with everyone or u have a person that is a mentor, take time and explain things, do enjoy onboarding, i need to know that ppl are slightly interested, generally thinking about membership, i changed my opionion, i do want to be able to say NO to ppl. How do we agree about a membership? I am bit biased ofc by governance things I m working on. In Karrot terms, karrot group isnt open. I would be fine to say like, apply to the group and there u find hte information. Use the approved feauture, also exited about making membership more clear, expectations are clearer ppl will encourage pll to join, providing clarity.
thinking about openess, making it easy for ppl to contribute, clearer statement of membership might encourage ppl, the case can be the opposite as well, The biggest challenge is to find nice dif levels of contribution. What does that mean?
power structures do exists!
build something international
Check how groups are doing with new features [E] (next time)
Date: 2023-02-17 19:30 CET
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: -
Minutes: All
Participants: Nick, Nathalie
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration:
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
Nick has finished work project! (almost)
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: Nathalie will be there
next Friday general:
Nathalie won’t be present
Nick might be cycling, but maybe can join
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: see who’s there
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
5 min
engage with feedback workflow on forum [Bruno et al]
4. Discussion points
Update from Daniel about meeting [R]
they decided the funding won’t cover a dedicated meeting
we can do something independent
Nathalie would be up for thinking about doing something
also previous idea we had about going to Gothenburg
unclear what the festival will consist of and what we would prepare for it, Nathalie quite clear to go to it, unless really small
not officially announced yet
proposal for mariha’s email
Next week:
continue conversation about how to join the Karrot Team in general [all]
check how groups are doing with new features [E] (next time)
new meeting time idea? [E]
5. Actions/Outcomes
Nick reply to Daniel about idea to organise independently for meeting, and also mention we’ll think about a workshop
wait for more reactions until next co-working time and reply to mariha [Nathalie]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
Date: 2023-02-24 19:30 CET
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vas
Minutes: Vas and all
Participants: Vas, Nathalie, Nick, Bruno
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 9 CET, Nathalie leaves at 8:30 CET
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: Nathalie will be there, Vas as well
next Friday general:
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: open to everyone/ Vas
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
5 min
engage with feedback workflow on forum [Bruno et al]
ongoing
Nick reply to Daniel about idea to organise independently for meeting, and also mention we’ll think about a workshop [Nick]
moved to discussion
wait for more reactions until next co-working time and reply to mariha [Nathalie]
done
4. Discussion points
new meeting time idea? [D]
we don’t like the fridays that much, was a compromise
Bruno: could do meetings during the day, almost everyweekday beteween 9-15.00 but not fridays or tuesdays. Evenings mondays and tuesdays
Nathalie: happy to move from friday. afternoons have calls. mostly mornings would work before 13.00-14.00. Could do mondays or tuesdays and tuesday evening.But wd prefer morning slots.
Nick: prefer mornings. Quite flexible. Not thursday morning. Early in the week slightly better, not wkends
Vasilis: avoid weekends, regular meeting monday morning, monday later, other mornings are ok, early on during the day
Proposal: Tuesday 10 CET? 9 UK time
yeah!
Q: Starting next week? yes!
Nick reply to Daniel about idea to organise independently for meeting, and also mention we’ll think about a workshop [E,R,D]
no funding for the meeting, but festival will happen, around mid august?
had the idea to do it anyway. use karrot money or no money
Nathalie: super nice t meet in person. doing it not in lux but in gotenburg.
team focus or engaging with groups?
organisational bit can be a burden maybe. depending on how much energy we put…
bruno: come to gotemburg! but open for other places as well. Maybe define a deadline?
vasilis: would be fun to meet up, team focus/ group engaging?, likes the idea of göteborg, how open we want it to be? invite others? what could Bruno organise, maybe a community center to sleep in.
bruno could help with logistics for sleeping more people.
it would be nice to stay in the same place, share, cook etc if that is possible
festival/workshop [E]
Bruno: would be fun and fine! if its mid aug its maybe gonna be easier for me. sounds duable
Nick: Yes on my radar. hazy about what a workshop is.
Vasilis: Yes on my radar. hazy about what a workshop is.
Nathalie: Yes on my radar, i think in Luxmeburg, up for a wkshop but also up to hear from daniel more. i do think they also provide cost for workshops.
new rhythms? [E]
how to fit karrot in work life, provide financial situation
how do people feel about rythm of Karrot in their lives
work out what we need to do
time fo evolution? Karrot team definition, crowd funding
do other/ external work e.g. for tech coop or other orgs
Nathalie: forgot to take notes here…not sure how i feel about karrot sometimes, the priority it takes in my life… CSX idea
Bruno: another wave of acitivity, planning and doing stuff, more time to plan and do things now, need for life designing
Vasilis: very interesting topic, how can Karrot become more of a daily part in our lives, when we got funding there was more energy there last year, we also had more pressure, that was bad, like to think about a more hybrid way, Karrot has potential for funding, other projects have more money than we do, can not write code, limited in participation to Karrot, transition would also require legal status esp. for
good project, worthy a push!
non-coding input is super valued
a lot of reflective space in Karrot, moving slowly
resilient way of doing things vs rocket ship to the moon
continue conversation about how to join the Karrot Team in general [E] [all]
check how groups are doing with new features [E] (next time)
find a time for design session/ retrospection session on roles feature [D]
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
Date: 2023-03-07 19:30 CET
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vas
Minutes: Vas and all
Participants: Vas, Nathalie, Nick, Bruno
reth
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 1:30h, Bruno leaves 1h in
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: Nathalie will be there, Vas as well
next Tuesday general:
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Bruno
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
4. Discussion points
time for the meeting [E,D]
Bruno: maybe we start 30mins earlier or check if can change the next thing
Nick: is up for trying 30 mins earlier but how about another day as well?
Nathalie: 30mins would work for me
Vasilis: 30mins earlier the same day
continue conversation about how to join the Karrot Team in general [E] [all]
What this topic is?
Nathalie: sometimes I do wish for places where the structures are clear, there is a lot of fluidity in Karrot, wonder if that is too much for me sometimes? How responsible I feel, effort I put? Is it just an open call? Do have a lot of sympathy for structure. Defining membership. Defined doesnt mean closed. Potential to the design feature of roles. Was wondering if we want to use this feature more e,g, approved can be karrot-team ppl, karrot friends etc. Governing members and asosciated members, my hope is to have more ppl engaged in the governance. The idea of growing the team but being open as well. a. Community org, b. software work?. More ppl coming into the technical. How a new developer get invlolves for example. Could it be a seperate circle?
I like the ideda of connecting with fosc.
Summary: will be happy having a better team definition.
Nick: reaction to above is excitment! Design our organisatinal structure. On the basis of sosiocracy. Use a sort of consent process to make a constitution of Karrot. The need of the contributors. The need of the users, the needs of software itself to be a viable entity. Transition point/inflection point to inform a structure that can better serve those needs. Personal situation: want to flow in money doing software that feels good to me. Some with Karrot, some working with tech coops.
Bruno: thinking along…I agree with the most, we need to start defining things, maybe a governing structure. ‘Who is part of the Karrot-team?’ Defining a membership team and consent. Finding other spaces for ppl to contribute. Democratising and participatory, general assembly? what are the fora the ppl can join to. How we incorporate the feedback? Its a process, we wont have answers now. We can start finding what the Karrot team is, what the scope is, what are the decisions.
write down some proposals/ideas. some concrete proposals.
Vas: lot of interesting comments, likes the momentum, move into a bit more structure, very amazed by fluid organising in the beginning, now becoming something more ‘concrete’, thinking about the idea of sociocracy, inital mapping, possible circles that could operate, how do you open up the process to groups? e.g. foodsaving Leuven - how could they participate?, rethink Design Session and prioritise this topic to design our organisation,
Nick: would like to spend time on that. Organisational transformation in a concent way. Dont want that be rushed despite my personal scale. Can screw up the dynamics so I m consious of that. Article: women in os tech.
Def positive in finding more sources of funding.
-Next steps ideas:
collect together organisational structure models (e.g. article from John)
maybe open a forum thread?
Design Process on our governance
-Nathalie: have a draft of csx to further discover. I m on this topic. Happy to thik of this, for us is fun to do the mapping things. Excited to get togethere with fosc and see what their prompts, questions. Idea of going through this together is beneficial for fosc as well.
-Bruno: maybe we can aim to dedicate 30mins of each meeting where we continue on this. To keep it steady.
-Vasilis: likes idea of getting connected with FOSC, external collaboration could give us a boost, interesting what they would say, different angle on Karrot, before reaching out to them: draft of what we are working on, make an extra document/ map of our topics and ideas, proposal: 30min in the next meetings, make something we can shar with external people and share it with FOSC later on. Writing down open questions and needs
Nick: do we plant sth first and get an external need? Needs first or a model that can hold our needs? Chicken or egg problem? Inherit messiness in this process. Little steps in different directions. Different diverse inputs. I feel limited whilst on the trip. I can imagine writing up some thoughts to go on the forum post. 30min standing agenda item. Check in ‘how is our csx learning exploraiton going?’.
Standing agenda point?
conctacting fosc people? try and get call after the 18th of March [Nathalie introduces each other]
jot down some thoughts [Nick to initiate that?]
check how groups are doing with new features [E] (next time)
can be a feedback session.
data: have groups using those new features? can we see that through grafana?
data is a bit to feed in more human processes. data can give a good initial sense.
unling the feedback session to design sessions. make a community cafe style feedback session?
community cafe? a meeting with groups?
a community cafe is beyond karrot? can be sharing experiences about foodsaving/sharing.
starting point with the ppl that we already engaged. Dave daniel or more ppl? see if they want to participate. General feedback with a special curiosity on new features. Improvements ideas. Could fit in the process of collecting feedback.
could be called a feedback session
make a time poll for a feedback session
find a time for design session/ retrospection session on roles feature [D]
would like to discuss roles vs membership
5. Actions/Outcomes
change the forum post accordingly [Vas]
chnage the activity series [bruno]
write to Daniel [Nathalie]
engage with the thread about festival and workshop [all]
engage again with the thread on new features ane suggest a time to meet and discuss and find a day for a co-working/design session [vas]
conctacting fosc people? try and get call after the 18th of March [Nathalie introduces each other]
jot down some thoughts [Nick to initiate that?]
make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items?
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
find a time for design session/ retrospection session on roles feature [D]
would like to discuss roles vs membership, getting the concept clear
do a design process
would be nice to see how groups are using it, do it after/during the feedback session maybe
Nathalie has some ideas, but when/where should it be shared?
a quick one now then get the feedback
been thinking about the definition of roles, now it’s more connected to membership
role allows you to do something
assigning some specific tasks is what a role is (relating to sociocracy)
approved role and trust giving is more like a membership type
operative roles, like participant types: how can they be displayed?
volunteer, grassroots organisation might have a bigger need to define different types of membership
Reactions
questions: what should be coded and what’s open for the group to decide? editor a special role, leave it like that, approved role linked to participate in acticities, unsure what else should be in the software
roles related to participant types, comes and goes
new onboarding process involced new type of membership
idea of badges (board member etc)
would like clear concept of this besides the technical implementation
useful to think about what groups are like, make patterns visible, user and group needs
what do we want to support with Karrot?
exisiting groups and existing features, how to fuse the concepts
nothing in the software which is causing harm
love to enage with this kind of abstract thinking
editor role came out of a need for an admin function, more like a reaction
be more intentional about design in the future
draft making could happen already
create a thread on the forum is one idea
Nathalie could take responsibility - think about it
Date: 2023-03-21 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Vasilis
Minutes: Vas
Participants: Bruno (kind of), Nathalie, Nick, Vasilis
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 1:30h
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
Nathalie offline thursday-sunday
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: its happening
Nick,Vas,nathalie
next Tuesday general:happening
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: mNick
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
engage again with the thread on new features and do a time poll to meet and discuss and find a day for a co-working/design session [anyone co-working]
reply fosc e-mail [someone co-working]
rewrite thoughts and questions about EU funding to put it back into the matrix channel [Nick]
look into and prod about nlnet funding, and/or explore in co-working tomorrow [Nick]
4. Discussion points
standing point: organizational structure [E]
general check in or pick a specific aspect and share some thoughts?
Nick: I think we have a need, and there are some nice ideas, practical bit of claryfing how things work, form an interesting organisation. The time is now. I d love to explore, discuss needs and see how they alight, reading ‘who decides book’ from Sofa,
Nathalie: dont have so much, not much surplus energy atm to go through organisational change, recently thinking about growth, more ppl? what would be a good size? where do you want to go?
Vasilis: interesting to think about growth topic, start doing a map at some point, keep an archve on what we’ve chatted about, could also be table of needs/ people, resource that we gradually enrich and edit
Bruno: a map would be nice, the ecosystem we have, the resources, how do we see it for the future, if things start get bigger and more complicated, not worth getting into detail if we dont have things in place, basic ideas: general circle, general assembly, then we have the karrot team, development circle…
Nick: feel the risk of it becoming an abstract topic that is draining withough any outcome coming out of it, got a sense that sometimes we need more navigation, why do we come in the project in the first place? what drives us as individuals? other stuff might come from that? rather than starting from a map lets see inwards first? A weekly chat is a good idea. keep it as a standing point.
Nathalie: map/resource of topics, help me have a view on different topics, this map thing can go to a co-working as well, getting clarity: state the vision and aims, mission, unclarity for myself,
Vasilis: concern that needs from the current team have a narrow focus, combine it with map to have a bigger picture
Bruno: start drafting sth more concrete, motivations and also vision, can be more inspiring that is also related to motivation, obviously the needs and how that relates to the project and start connecting the bits of the project. I sense that we can get more concrete
Proposal:
use 20min of next meeting to start drafting
clearer take on our needs: why is everybody here?
ok!
commons consortium [R]
not go ahead with the proposal, requires an organisation that has managed millions of pounds/money, Ivan also motivated to connect regardless of the funding, there might be an ongoing conversation
I d expect sth more clear: hey everybody we are not doing it
nlnet funding [ED]
didnt do so much what they are asking, partly touches on the other topic, thiking about money and time: my new money focus life, starting from that 5-50 thousands of euro, last time was a bit stressful to meet the milestones, dif working pattern, idea i have now is approximately hourly rate, agree on doing some stuff, gives us double the time, also touches the money model. At least its sth to think about. Did calculations, say if ppl were working…38.000 for 3days a week for 3 months. 1,5 as a multiplier. wanted to play with the numbers. how is that thinking relates to you.
Bruno: how do we fit Karrot, its quite broad when u look at the list that can be quite broad speaking, data sovereigity…there are stuff to explore that can fit Karrot, we should sort of try and see what are priorities with funding are, and see if they can fit in the funding. should have the time to improve some basic things, usability in general, more friendly, more sleak experience. If the feeling is kind of shared with the rest of you but I m flexible and positive to try this out. Add the comment on the money/payment 1/week. Not get stuck in counting the exact hours. More doing an estimation of hours we contribute
Nathalie: positive about NLnet, could to apply in general, also think to make things more easier at the beginning about time comittment, better organise the pace, slow…to are we doing it? Also noticed my persnal time comittment is not that high, 3 days per week is a lot, last time doing the meeting, co-working 2+ max. Do know what is the capacity, focus on usability, idea to have a manual, do like videos, could imaninge having a spec project doing this manual, and focus on that
Vasilis: positive
Nick: coordinate the application process, noticed I have the most time and energy for doing that. What I heard from ppl: bruno 1 day a week, usability stuff is motivating, Nathalie: half a day
request from Daniel/ Luxembourg [ED]
- reach consent ? proposal from Nick: remove the user, record that decision as an agreement on Karrot group, do the process of jouining FSLux and share what we did with them, agreement to record a decision atm, change the period of time to 3 months instead of a year. It is a one time removal.
- Nathalie:happy to make this decsion, shall i ask if the followed their own process or its none of my business. Unsure of how happy I am for keepping the proopsal/agreement up for a year. Do this and see what happens.
- Bruno: in favor of the proposal, work on general proposal on how we deal with some cases, what happens if the person gets accepted again? another request comes? Discuss the general proposal…make it clearer.
- Vasilis: consent but be aware of not becoming judjes, deleting accounts
- Consent on above amended proposal!
- Next steps in coworking/ near future
who is in there? numbers? process? (e.g. who is listed on it)
adding tasks as attachment sounds good idea
some clarity of which tasks won’t fit that can be worked on now, so not too dependent on this to start working
maybe can copy/paste some parts from previous application, e.g. previous projects/organisations section
part to write a description of ourselves, wondering how to make sure we get the parts
important to fit in things we’d like to work on, not just a list of things we can work on, so look at personal motivation
last time on NLnet put all the milestones, really vague on money related to tasks, how you gonna use money incluiding rates, a bit tighter, i want that myself (Nick), that is sth I am consious, to work on get consent and explore
my sense to have it that ppl put tasks willing to be responsible for, there might be delays…put things ppl are wiling to work on and formulate themselves, was pushing tilman on that as well.
came up with the idea of handling the rate:
a rate we will be willing to work on that 15/20/25?
chargable rate x2, x1,5
decide how much allocate to the stuff
estimate tasks
we neeed to make a number
add ppl on the application
bump Nick over tax (nick) given we dont have a karrot bank. accoount
internal would what u get, other part is the karrot fund
round Q & R
Nathalie: a good starting point, about the rates, I m putting my internal rate >15euros, 20 - 25. Adress the bank account thing. Karrot bank account? → Legalizing topic.
Bruno: like the proposal of the two rates, also started thinking about needs about formalizing things a little more, self-employed or karrot-as-employer, exploring that a bit now, goes into organisational structure stuff, have to interact with bureaucracy, connected with bank/money stuff, etc. legal entities, … first reaction to tasks: “don’t think I can do much here”, seems more code related… but did see more design/community engagement stuff, hard to estimate things, will try to estimate average weekly contribution time, and sense of tasks, fine with rate idea, wish to end up receiving more than current amount, seems that this plan will go there
Vasilis: ok with the rates we suggested, don’t know about market rate, regarding bank accounts, if we do need it then need legal status, opens up new discussion, uk, elsewhere?, could also open up opportunities for other funding that needs legal status, so would like to work towards that direction, need to submit rate, do we need to budgeting? personal reaction: depends when/if we start, could spend sometimes like 2 days/week, depends on others capacity/motivations too, quite a few tasks to do, esp. research and engagement with communities, and can foresee collaboration with Nathalie/Bruno there, like to work with other people
Nick: relieved that ppl are ok ish with the money idea on rates, to have more foormalisedd structure there. we can get more real on what we need in our life. bring some of the needs up.
rate quite like to decided it today. it is asked for. make it concrete. Would propose 20 as internal rate.
3 rates: low rate 15,mid 20-25, high 30-40. Nathalie had similar thooughts, 21.50€ was the magic number,20 is quite a good number, make a proposal 20, 1.5x20 =30 for the application, 2/3 going to the person, 1/3 distributed Karrot fund
one thing that could be set up is an open collective account, maybe we could set up, there are some fees, maybe its worth it
we need to do budgeting, how to estimate hours on a task its hard, we just have to do the best on that
consent round?
rate of 20, 1.5x20 =30 for the application, 2/3 going to the person, 1/3 distributed Karrot fund
Nat: wonder if its in my tolerance rate? why not 22?
Bruno: consent, we could raise it a little bit, 21,5/22 or we just leave it as it is, at the end, you count with ur own rate, internal rating? calculate the total
Vas: +1 Bruno
Nick: would like the same for eveybody, maybe we havent got time to work the system, flat rate is a starting point of equality, start with the same rate this time. Re-make proposal 22,33 rate. Uncertainty on NLnet on market rates.
rate of 22€, 1.5x22 =33€ for the application, 2/3 going to the person, 1/3 distributed Karrot fund
Nat: Consent
Bruno: Consent
Vasilis: Consent
Nick: Consent
comment: stress that this is a self-employment rate
how to get the task list in shape, so people have things they feel comfortable with
Nathalie: looking at tasks and availability, won’t take on many, maybe one, happy for others to take on more, esp. coding ones, fine for imbalance of numbers within the team, if someone has motivation, great! coherent documentation one, could be nice, if it fits… could bring to co-working and get help to frame it, topics/pages/link to forums/videos, info about how the features work in details, have been thinking on this for a while, might be only thing to work on. also general feedback: really impressed by whole process, read through the tasks, sitting and nodding surprised by ActivityPub focus, didn’t see karrot in federated space before… not so into design things right now, e.g. the roles stuff. something to constantly work on would feel nice.
Bruno: leaves in anger
Vasilis: we mentioned the manual thing before, but didn’t include it, … fits with general themes
Nick: surfacing motivations and mush things in the framing, not bad if a milestne doesnt 100% fit in. On the documentation, I would support that, one thing i conceived of that. Coding and not coding way.
roles stuff?
Nathalie: feeling space for new things smaller, feels it takes energy, could be fine anyway, feels like a pre-existing idea, not sure how much we’ll shake this anyway, if others work on it, and there’s moments for feedback
Vas: roles very important, can see collaborating with bruno and nathalie
Nathalie: willingness to really listen to groups too small for this feature, have ideas but feels a stretch to work them in, can see listening to group needs would work, and maybe merge in
feels more able to be self-directed to do the documentation part
might re-think participation in roles stuff
what now, until submission?
Nathalie:
work on task list, assign people, time/money correlation, double check the names where people feel responsible and we need from those people
then writing the other parts of the application that Nick/Vas took on
CSX part, might talk more in co-working, less clear, bigger topics would be good to have more focus and time, but personally have less time and not wanting to expand it, will think more about it
Vasilis:
looking at application itself, abstract needs a couple of edits, but mostly OK
past engagements with similar projects, to support why we’re capable, needs the involvement of all of us, 2 lines per person (short tailor made CV)
explain what the budget would be for, would like support of someone else on that
significant technical challenges, also need support on
can take the lead on historic efforts, and engagement ecosystem
can engage on the 4 sections, and have good draft by end of co-working tomorrow
bigger question we didn’t discuss, how much money we ask for, needs some monetizing of the tasks, or the reverse way
have first good version by tomorrow? then maybe another co-working on Friday, or maybe even Thursday and Friday, can fix schedule to focus on that
Nick:
responsible for explaining budget
task/budget allocation in a spreadsheet
get a total amount
5 people to put on /
availabilities:
Tilman is in! → 10h/ week
Vas: 10-16h/week
Nick: 2-3 days/week
Nathalie 5h/week
another coworking end of this week, finish by fridy 7pm
Ashley, and I’m currently a college student looking to get more experience in web development
5/6/7 pm UTC would work
student from USA, maybe 2
could have an evening call
would like feedback on how we move on, as they are looking to hear back from us
reactions
Nathalie: wasn’t thinking so much initially as “college student” thing, but more in new contributor, onboarding frame of mind, like as we do with groups that want to use karrot, could see how connection goes, feel a bit obliged to reply and make call happen, could enjoy the call, framing is unclear now
Vasilis: wondering where they came across Karrot? remember it was in a list of projects somewhere, maybe there, definately don’t have energy for a call with student at the minute, great if you can take it on, maybe it’s for their dissertation or thing for uni, maybe have something quite specific so they can choose
Nick: unmotivated to put a lot of energy in, in the past: full of enthusiams at the beginning, a lot of help needed, becoming an (unpaid) coding tutor, when close to deadline: rush something that satisfies uni, not very useful to Karrot or the groups in the end, just trying to be clear about situation, maybe a better project that has more funding and that is part of their job to do funding, not a lot of time either, not very clear what they want. Find something they can work on themseves. Can’t think of any tasks at the moment. Probably the only person that could support them (technically)
want to support students
unclear exactly how to proceed
could bring to co-working
Nick offers to write definitive no
Next time:
money review: Review the amounts of how much money we receive [E]
Date: 2023-04-04 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes:
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 45 min
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
Nathalie will do less Karrot things for the coming 2 weeks, so not joining weekly meeting
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: Yes!
next Tuesday general: yes
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Nick
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
reply fosc e-mail [someone co-working]
continue to work on nlnet application [all]
4. Discussion points
new group in Bath [R]
transition bath group facilitated ‘eco’ meeting last year
one outcome was a whatsapp group → reached limitation
someone proposed Karrot
recommended from bioregion members
set up now!
like a ‘group of groups’
setting up another instance? bath.community maaaybee
comment: another group in Göteborg also lookig into Karrot
report nlnet funding [R]
it was fun!
Vas very committed
Vas and Nick went throught the final bits on saturday, send it away and celebrate
feeling optimistic
having a little break now after the sprint
thank you!
applied for 42.000€
money review: Review the amounts of how much money we receive [E]
Nathalie’s been receiving 400E/months and feel like committed contributor. But now feeling more like occasional since won’t have much time and will go down a bit: 150-200
Nick wants to crank it up! We’re in a state of transition between different models, waiting for funding, different personal needs, etc. There’s also the upcoming review of our whole money agreement. Without calculations feels like 400-500
Bruno, fine at this level, not had much time to reflect on how much time, past and future. trying to keep it at average level, not done so much in last couple of weeks, ups and downs. fine with current amount if others are fine too. 200. need for formalize evidence of income for state in the future, and would be useful to receive a higher amount, even if a 3/6 month period to receive a much higher amount.
also check-in with Vas next time and give chance to review
current balance: 16.154,98 EUR
standing point: organizational structure [E]
quick round no discussion
Nick: topic contained a lot in the funding. If we don’t get funding we can do a scaled down version.
Nathalie: CSX thing is quite big, but we could focus still on the question of what we do with the smaller group here, not necessarily connected to funding. What to do in relation to FOSC/SOFA (organisational learners?).
Bruno: agrees that things are related to funding, still nice to do something regardless, identifying needs, personal and project related, where do we need more clarity? where could we benefit from organisational clarity? e.g. what is the Karrot team, levels of contribution, relationship to establish with contributors, what are terms and condistions to contribute, not only money-wise, how do we decide on what to work on (features, bugs), involvement and engagement of Karrot users
not very clear about the governance structure of the group, nathalies proposal is clearer here, we want to know how they make decision, could refine wording about the position to make clearer how the group came to the decision and how they’re in a position to bring that to use
like the thing that they tried the feature at least once, although not completely sure, as maybe there could be a situation that it wouldn’t work for?
not very clear on the “database admins will act based on this agreement”, based on the karrot team agreement I guess…
typo on “the the Karrot” (the Karrot God?), I guess the Karrot Team
ask for clarification on what those two lines meant
on removed things, maybe these things were too detailed, and more of an internal thing, so good
Vas:
makes sense to not include the 3-or-more people, 3 is random number, if we did add a number a percentage might make more sense
added point about their governance agreement makes sense, prevent hijacking a group by new members contacting us
some groups don’t have a governance document though, so might need a bit of back and forth, and some small groups are flat informal organisations
judging vs trusting, on evidence… “ideally” is quite open, so allows for the scenario… for a group that doesn’t have clear governance, we would start having to judge the value of the word of an older member vs newer member, karrot team ends up the judge in these scenarios. maybe an extreme case.
makes sense to have tried the membership review once
database admins can seek advice or escalate… guess the idea someone can just do it if it’s super clear already, otherwise can go into a discussion with the karrot team
quite happy to proceed, makes sense
however, if we delete the 3-or-more people, one person could come up and make a request, would make sense more to be a percentage, e.g. 20% of members should agree, or provide list of their emails, or something… 20% is random number, but would make sense
Nick:
also like the show your gov agreement
happy with modification
tried the membership (I approve that)
get rid of the 3 ppl
get rid of the time period bit
one-time removal +1 keeps it simple
didnt fully comprehent the database admin
given the actual ppl who are database admin is ok but still it is ok to bring it up to the meeting with the Karrot team to understand what is the case with the membership review features
can we delete the whole last section?
i think shorter agreements are better
principles
what u do (requesting)
what we do
-would be ok to have a good enough for now agreement
-rework the words tomorrow in the meeting?
-put it for 1year
Bruno:
start thinking of scenarios, and in-practise cases…
and pondering wider thoughts for bigger platforms (BigTech platforms have shit moderation… comply with law, minimise cost, so AI and poorly paid people)
how much can we refain from judging role? always cases where the group can’t contain a situation, could escalate to board, or police, or other wider structures. not easy. and we cannot guarantee we cannot make judgements. even if judgement about the processes of the community.
just reflections, hopefully don’t have to deal with the extreme cases
up for a “safe enough for now…” and work as we progress
capacity and complexity at scale… how much can be assigned to the group themselves, 100s of 1000s of active groups? how does it look like in the context of community supported software compared to capitalist organisations, would be really innovative… nothing like that right now, moderating on that scale for non-capitalist orgs
Vas:
good comments from Bruno
any way to refain from having a judging role?
makes sense to do things at a human level, not having AI deciding anything
for 100s/1000s groups cannot do that model, … but maybe Karrot Team would be bigger
if we implemented roles feature and trust for role, maybe we have more “admin” roles that allow people to remove people directly, so they don’t need to ask us to mediate
e.g. current case was not asking us for advice, but asking us to do something they have already agreed without their group, more a technical request
leads us to discussion as we explore the CSX model
in luxembourg they have a conflict team and a wellbeing manager, but could not resolve situation, karrot membership review process doesn’t meet their needs so well, but neither did their community processes
Nick:
dreaming hat back on. wider society and technology? big tech exploited workers doing modertation from a ‘poor’ country for a rich country.
instance administrator in Mastodon, fediverse is currently undergoing a lot of growth and so active topic there…
making visible the invisble power of database admins esp for more informal projects
its not a desire to be judging, we could rework the revelant sentence though on the text
its hard to know what judgement is
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
quick round, no discussion
we’re all blank on this right now
from cybernetics, how much an org can cope with “variety” coming in
idea to have it as a standing topic to look at the board
how it relates to wider community and needs
sense to bring things forward when there is space available for development, rather than piling up everything
lots of things come up that are not in github issues or on the board
should we maybe not use Github issues at all? Bugs for example are not always clearly a bug, but maybe requires discussion, a new feature
working towards outcome/decision about how the flow can work at the moment, proposal for use of GitHub
ongoing planning for Göteborg trip [V]
Vas applied for 2 month studentship to Switzerland in June/July, visit some CSAs, then bring this knowledge/discussion into Karrot, and physical project, for ongoing exploration
in the meantime… plan to visit Göteborg and Luxembourg…
maybe potential to visit Bruno all together
open proposal for May, maybe a bit last minute
Vas could go to Göteberg anyway in May, and maybe another later trip
… waiting to hear about going to Switzerland or not
a round!
Nathalie: excited about this, could make something happen, would be nice to see each other, don’t have clear framing, could be more visiting Bruno, or super intense Karrot weekend, or in the middle? May is quite soon… but still waiting for Vas’s reply… [Vas: reply is due this week], not a massive trip, wondering about prices and travel, have some weekends in May… end of May but then middle of June, maybe July… fuzzy…
Bruno: happy to welcome everyone to Göteborg, getting to dates… would be good to plan it well, in May there are some days to align with that might be better, would be nice to have some Karrot time together, family visits… some visits to not align with… end of May, beginning of June… co-ordinate with summers/vacations… have to work out a place to stay, can check with friends, etc. potential for a nice little cottage house on an island (Orust) that a friend has…
Q: may? beginning/end? [Vas: avoiding end of May, lots of travel, greece, etc. may 10th-20th makes sense, could work well?]
Vas: may works regardless of switzerland plans
Nick: was going to say all of May is out, but a well planned trip could work mid-may centred around weekend of 20th (weekend before/after are busy)
another quick round of what next?
Bruno: not much to decide now, go through a bunch of filters to see if it’s happening in may:
a) switzerland trip for vas or not [LIES!!! he is up for mid-may regardless]
b) nicks availability
c) to see availabilities here
d) nathalies availabiltiies
open, but can’t decide anything right now
if not may, then later during summer? could open up other possible locations
Nick: my availbility is quite possible mid-may, if we decide very soon, and plan travel and money well, not sure if our momentum will get there, but if things are aligning, can organise solidly and quickly… will not fly
Vas: prioritise asking Bruno to see about asking mums and timeframes, e.g. 15-20 may, we don’t need to force Bruno to be with us all day, can then start checking how to get there, can do it regardless of Switzerland, checking newcastle to Göteborg, train/boat/etc, takes ages and expensive… go to dublin, then göteborg cheaper and faster… we can work out where to stay, so don’t burden Bruno with logistics
Nathalie: not available 13th/14th may, but would be after, thinking more about weekends, can think within week, need to think about how to work within that time, current plan is to have free days here and there rather than a bunch of it, reality coming back… travelling until 13th may, also beginning of June doing something… need a bit of time to let it sink in, and research, getting more realistic about distance and time, can see how it can happen, maybe stay alone in Sweden a bit, glimmer of an idea! would like to travel, not completely convinced
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
5. Actions/Outcomes
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
discuss reply to Darren during co-working [Nick/Vas]
progress hacktionlab CSX proposal during co-working [Nick/Vas]
minor: “Do that with the help of a board” clarify what the “board” is
clarify “standing point” each meeting, maybe too much to go through every week, maybe we don’t need a decision each time, maybe takes too much space in weekly meetings, as they are operational parts, so weekly meeting can be more focused on decisions, although if we’re in a routine it could be short, could try it… don’t have to fill it every time… we have 2 standing topics now
fine to try it
Nick:
also like it, short and straight forward
clarify which place to add new topic, backlog or new ‘incoming’ category
agrees on ‘Kanban board’
github issues still for purely technical topics ‘will be reserved for operational technical issues and usage will be minimised’
update document - more like a next step, not ongoing thing. Or say ‘keep documents updated’
likes standing point: could be short, check if something needs to go on the agenda, not going into every topic deeply, maybe clarify that more
big picture: how to prioritize? this proposal is already widening this decision. Next step: bring this more to the community?
Bruno:
appreciates improvements \o/
agree with reflections on the standing point, not to be a very time consuming thing, can decide whether we need to go deeper into it or not, and otherwise would be very brief, culture around the work and weekly meeting let’s us create how we manage it. if we do end up getting bogged down in discussion, could try only once a month
wondering about the correct space to make the decisions about what to prioritize, relates to do-ocracy aspects (the people who are doing decide what/how things get done), also relates to governance, still nice to have some of that if people have motivations to work on particular things. OTOH widening the decision making forum to the wider community would be good.
keeping this pragmatic right now, the karrot team is a good space for this deciding, as we incorporate feedback from groups
right now connection maybe not good enough for group members to get involved there
consent:
Nathalie: yes!
Nick: yes!
Bruno: yes!
we’ll put this as an agreement on the karrot team & feedback group, with a review period of 4 months
we decided not to wait to check with Vas, as it’s not a very dramatic proposal, and changes can be proposed in the future anyway…
organising the board can be done during co-working, tomorrow and in general
missing a “currently working on” column? (or use forum “assign” feature)
wondering how tags look, and assigned cards
extra columns could be nice, e.g. active design process, activate development
would be nice to write descriptions for “About the X category” topics
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
a round!
Bruno:
feels like the topic is progressing since making HacktionLab proposal
don’t have anything specific now
touched on it today slightly with the question on prioritizing the workflow
Nathalie:
update on Karrot & FOSC exploration, people filled out when2meet survey, date being sent out this week
John/Jane will take lead on preparing the meeting, faciliating and notetaking, nice Nathalie doesn’t have to do those bits
it should give a bit more input on this topic
was thinking, about the board… this dev-decides → team decides → maybe community. noticing changes in team and faciliating, and asking for consent. could reflect or formalize more. we still didn’t actually clarify what the “karrot team” is and who is in it… could formalize the team structure.
struggle with ideas on involving the community more, when we are less clear about the team itself. community involvement looks really unsure, whereas doing our team structure itself can move us forward, and look at community after that. get’s overwhelming and unsure how it would work, but do appreciate that
Nick:
work coordination, each person knows what they’re doing
political structure, doing things differently to corporate tech
going beyond rumour of group leaving, how to understand needs, and open discussion
round
Nathalie:
can relate, with sense of rumour, and semi-public information, feeling a bit unsure
conversation about translation of foodsharing in #foodsharing-dev, promoting to non-german groups
could start a conversation, could drop it, an open conversation could be nice
subgroups are useful, and more formal structures on foodsharing than Karrot
Bruno:
important to get feedback if groups do decide to leave
even if we can’t provide for the unmet needs of the group right now
nothing wrong being part of another chat
fine to bring it up, having seen information on #foodsharing-dev
Nick:
complexity of feelings is interesting, part personal, part organisational
feeling good about the way things are with foodsharing
freedom to use any tools
feelings of ‘taking away’ users (both ways Karrot ↔ foodsharing)
bring conversation up, esp. around Karrot for bigger groups
Nathalie:
would be happy to bring this to a conversation, personal vs group
like to just say things
interesting to share potentials
Bruno:
good to be straightforward and open
practical thing good to act on
emotional part can also relate to, that we all have, work and passion, feeling of people taking it away or not appreciating it, good to be aware of it, brave to talk openly about it
not be carried away with the emotions for the practical steps, a good opportunity for growing the project, developing the concept and organisation
not sure best place for the conversation, 1-on-1 can be fine, or can find a good more open channel, others can also participate there, would be curious, up to you
Nick:
happy with our conversation
reflections about how to make space for emotional topics within an organistion
do a round, put some thoughts, might take some more thinking and discussionn, nlnet funding application is pending, doesnt feel like taking about basic income
stay more in the reflection phase, what worked well? what not? another round of ideas? How effective was this policy what did we like? understand what worked and maybe go to what we would suggest to change?
facilitate a review sesh, best if someone is willing to facilitate. Make a simpler proposal: extend until to find what is going with NLnet
how do we feel about it so far?
Nick: good to have sth to distribute money, made a material difference to me, guess to other ppl, now few things feel towards a dif direction. 1. Nlnet funding that we received, 2. transition: structrure and organisations and how we go forward? Feels of energy deficit open more topics, lots of uncertainties
Nathalie: still like the money agreement, money circles went really well. high idealistic standard the intrinsic bit? One tention is how we deal with the funding? I dont see such a big gap, have kind of both.
Bruno: if we get the grant then we re-reflect on how we distribute money. It feels nice as it is now. Wondering if things will collide if we receive new/other form of funding?
Vas: first time experienced money agreement based on needs, nice aspect of connecting through this topic, nice that happened, amounts changed in the past, interested to talk about basic income idea, interested how ‘intrinsic motivation’ lands with people, extrinsic also a factor
engage in conversation about Karrot/ foodsharing software usage of groups [all]
write a repy to FOSC reflecting to what we discussed [Nick]
4. Discussion points
FOSC meeting yesterday [R]
who (outside Karrot)
rust and fosc exploratory talks in the past (Jane from FOSC)
has interesting insights
John interested in local foodsaving and probably some coding/dev backround
Ahmed doing agile coaching
topics:
governance within the Karrot team (who, how we organise)
sociocracy and gov for the groups/users (features, guiding principles for governance)
fed stucture betweeen karrot groups and karrot team
focus on the gov to the Karrot team tbw as sth more tangible to start with
not a regular meeting, check again in a month, formal and informal
q: membership topic? fluid – non-fluid (rigid, well defined). What needs os projects have in general? need for dif membership models? What does it mean? How the sociocratic model can fit in os projects? keypoint: the context of os projects, alllowing dif participation types
open source can be capitalist friendly and get enclosed
how to make governance ‘open?’
CS x bring sth outside of software
how to organise self-organisation? maybe sociocracy is the way
what is the Karrot role in that? What kind of governance do we want to code to the groups?
something for Karrot, or maybe for the foodsaving community using Karrot?
didnt dick deep yet
for urban doers
no need for legal status (we need to confirm that)
The deadline for submitting your application is 14 June 2023
ppl meet to exchange knowledge: networking and paper/report to produce
10 projects will be selected
clarify if we are eligible to apply?
Karrot day(s) 2023 [E]
a regular catchup, even sth simpler, a community cafe (vas)
maybe can start discussing the idea of meeting as a team, if we see that we can do Karrot days as part of that. We meet for a few days and try to organise sth online with other groups. We can make sth easy (couple of sessions). Would make sense to organise those things together (bruno)
thinking on a purely online setup, finding a date is always a tricky part, would enjoy bringing it to an op level, play with the roles cocept, have concerns coming up in every meeting, we can build on last year exp, not super excited to bring this forward atm (Nat)
first thought was a bit of overwhelm, hearing the motivation from other ppl, will go on for 1 d thing and manageable, online feels more manageble and discreet, question who wants to steward? I m up to support (Nick)
ideas welcome
I guess you could almost say that