a good general text, easy to comprehend for people in Karrot project or used to alternative circles
for people not in alternative circles, maybe hard to comprehend what it actually means, e.g. “what is the money circle?”
says describe an agreement for each contributor, but what would it look like? amount of money, could make it more tangible
in second paragraph there is an explanation of how we see money, would move that into the beginning, “How do we perceive money”, so add some headings, preface, process, how we get to outcomes. with the goal to help outsiders to understand it better
Nathalie:
I like it a lot
saw we made a few amendments from initial draft
feel like it makes sense
like this second paragraph, feels quite honest, e.g. within our financial capacities
two minor points:
practicalities of money circle, usually takes place in the weekly meeting, not after it
a bit more tangible about how we do things, could mention opencollective, e.g. “all money is collected by our fiscal host and visible on our opencollective”
like the sense we have one collection of money, and we had some confusion before about whether to have extra agreements
nice sense to collect all the money from all the sources (not thinking about who brought it in), and then redistributing it
agree with butze, as the agreement could just be amount of money
Nick:
likes it
balance between dreamy vision (working from our hearts) and lived realities, we touch both parts of that
broadly made sense to me
guideline: what do we mean by this, e.g. the 3 categories for contribution, we’re open to have discussion about others
guideline could mean different things to different people
external work not reflected here, difference between core work and ‘external’ work, nothing to add here, but reflecting that not all situation are covered (where there is an overlap in projects)
‘in the meeting’ could just edit that
tangible is good, but could be prescriptive instead of descripive
example section could be nice, based on previous examples
once we get fiscal host, we can include it in there and link it
not about who brings it in, support making that explicit
adding headings, would be happy about this: ideoligical background, what we’ll discuss, facts/ how it happens, examples - but not too motivted to work on headings myself, as it’s not a very long text
Butze:
also stumbled on the word “guideline”, not sure a good other word
it also says “people who use Karrot”, so users of karrot could come and ask for money?
also don’t see the need to structure to the text, but would be happy to
Nathalie:
also not so motivated to structure the text with headlines, as it seems not too long
am motivated to add a sentence here or there:
opencollective
one money pot
and in the weekly meeting, not after
openness of money circle? didn’t advocate for it to be so open, but happy with it, currently we only give money to karrot team, open to some flexibility, in reality mostly people in karrot team
Nick:
openness, just leave it, but how do people know? they would need to be aware of it and somehow active
we did pay travel costs to karrot users, could be worth having a section, making it clearer for other people
next steps
bring back a new version of text to a meeting (maybe after fiscal host?)
I’d like to do an interview (8 to 10 questions, written asynchronously) and publish it on the APC website.
Would you agree?
If so, who should I write to to send these questions?
Looking forward to hearing from you
5. Actions and Outcomes
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
change getting started guide to give the right message for undergrad students [Vasilis]
summary is that we dont have capacity for dev contributions but HCIish things yes
technical design of signup public activities on Codeberg [Nick]
bring back a new version of text to a meeting (maybe after fiscal host?) [Nathalie, nick happy to co-work on it]
very aware that the role desing process should start soon
finish the polls we d like to bring it in a meeting before it gets to development
for the roles. call a meeting…follow the design process, come up with a penpot, basically similarly to the polls (hosted by Nathalie)
keep in mind/updated with reality
some can progress when we got the fiscal host (no money on the account atm)
when Jay is back: Jay’s membership
Agreements: Member policy
§3 Becoming a Member paragraph
round of reactions:
Bruno: met her already and feels like she’s got the qualities for becoming a member. Saw a commitment and interest in cotributing mainly with development, but also with other tasks, would be interested to hear a bit more about how she sees her contributions in the future
Nathalie: a little ritual, meeting in person in Siegen helped me a lot, do see a lot of commitment, contribute, design process, there is a lot of things in favor of u also joining the team, one sense, hard to articulate: concern that engaging in a self-organised env might lead to overwhelm.
Vas: missed meeting in person, do see a good fit, beautiful to see Jay coming to the meetings, liked that Jay was sharing ideas already, good energy, likes to see team growing!
Nick:(re)echo, nice to build on the ‘in person’ base, enthusiasm is quite obvious and present, general in chatting, talking + Singing!!!, lots of ideas, bright thought, idea of having more ppl to develop (increased tech team) ‘I like that’ (Nick), learning the new tech we use, knowlegde sharing, space for learning within the self-organised, lack of urgency in Karrot, we dont have this ‘urgency’, its more present or slow or whatever is fitting, hope it feels that way as well, ‘slow spaciness’ can be nice and frustrating. A space to explore my experiences in siegen relating the situation with fslux
Jay: sorry have to be in and out of meetings, set time not compatible with my schedule. Fslux as one of the ‘users’ of Karrot, I m OK discussing about it. Overwhelm doesnt put pressure on me, had a positive experience, in general I have a positive experience, well organised but yet not so strict to stress me out, good match, from an idelogical, I want to be part of socially. How the process feels? It feels a bit stressful. ‘It is a bit like an interview’. My job is doing enough to cover my money needs atm.
centre for sociodigital futures (post-doc). Wrote me an email, ideas of trust. Community Econonomies, fancy working with me? workshop of paper,blog or seminar, invitation to explore that further, no big rush, away till end of July
Nathalie good opportunity, I m not so interested in joining atm. Still vague but nice. Would ‘nominate’ Vas or Bruno to join if they like. How do u see the money involved?
Vas is happy to join/participate/chat/explore
Jay happy to join, interesting discussion that might come up
Nick: reply to Matt, propose an exploratory meeting, 1h or so and see where to go from there
If there is 250 a day, woulld like to participate as a team, a community in that way. Simpler to include that as pooled money
future meeting:
bring polls design into meeting for discussion/approval
one of the structured sessions: ABCs of the new econommy, attend an annual EGM, join a committed role, middle role: listed 7 things, e.g. learning skills, sharing connections, contribute ideas, tell stories was quite a nice one, two ppl had interesting chats with, commons booking, curcilar economy urban project e.g. have a karrot instance, the other project was a shared economy project using open-collective, would be a while before Karrot would make sense for them, made me think of Karrot as a core that is supported by plugins/extention. A community around deaf users also connected to, eg a work on a join application funding platform to work on more tailor made features. Got some good ideas overall for Karrot
session on investing/funding: going down and gets harder and harder, everyone seems to ‘hate’ the whole thing, models outside waiting for the funding cow are important to find.
community tech session didnt engage much but nice ppl to talk to
like it how it is, wait until it’s true as we’re still in process with all for climate
Open Collective
get rid of ‘in the sense of redistribution’
not very clear what is meant by decouple income generation and receiving money
happy with text
‘however we recognize…’ not logically coherent, conclusion that is drawn
common pot aplies to funding, some do more fundign oriented work that other and therefore ‘generate’ more income
not sure about ‘decoupling’, is it clear for outsider?
confused about categories of contribution, is it for Karrot members or outside contributors? Is there no fixed salary?
Alternative wording of redistribution sentence
3 categories: paragraph above has the relevant information, doesn’t only refer to Karrot team, problem of guidelines, happy to get rid of it if it’s adding confusion, it is not a boundary, emphasis on discussion part
monthy or task based compensation, not categorise contributors
not speak about ‘3 categories’ but ‘ways of contributing’ instead of putting a number
don’t see myself in any category
process question: consent to written proposals, continue rewriting other parts, iterative approach
Proposal:
Adopt new version of agreement with a term of 1 year.
Bring back proposal after tomorrow’s co-working
Add current changes in bold
Consent round
Objection: 'we aim to distribute the money fairly ': unclear what fairly means, it is vague and doesn’t reflect what we mean
Proposal: Agree on everything else and leave this part (2nd paragraph) to coworking session
Consent!
Next steps
update agreement on forum and karrot group [Nathalie]
report from FOSC Community of Practice [Vas]
good meeting, 7-8 people, 3 people from SoFA, others from other projects (US, Poland)
skipped bureacratic parts e.g. SoFA membership to join
getting to know each other, some started implementing socicoracy
made a list of topics for the future
meet once a month
very grounded, different ideas
interested to think about fluctuating participation, how could sociocracy work there
not only focused on decision making but building relationship, sharing emotions
shared values implicit in open-source and sociocracy
expressed personal interest ‘out of the papers and to the hands of actual communities’
writing to vas and butze to ask for some references for papers for the issue of trust
how it connects with real-world trust
matt dowse initially wrote:
“Specifically, I’m thinking about the idea of trust and how trust is built through community technology practices and processes – both in the ways that organising in this space is constituted and broadly governed (alt models etc) and how these practices can form particular kinds of trust (and vulnerability) and what this means to how community technology might be imagined in the future as a trust making practice…… In part, this links to some of the community economies summer school work that I’ve been working on in that I think that trust has the potential to sensitize us to some of the invisible practices that make up community tech practice and which might be generative to future thinking about community tech and what it does/can could do (in opposition to some of the more damaging effects and or practices of more capitalist forms of tech practice).”
not much research around trust which is not transactional (reviews, star systems), different forms of trust e.g. trusting someone to hold a role, relational form of trust is build gradually, some papers on relations trust, but not much how technology can mediate this (related to HCI)
different faces: trust people, trust mission, trust culture, trust platform as a software, trust towards an instance admin, trust to be solid
needs to think more about the conection of trust, roles and selection processes, also looking at our next Dsign Process for Roles
is trust-building a fundamantally non-technologial process? How much can technology really do?
sociocracy supports trust-building and psychologival safety in circles/ small groups
Who is interested to join an inital call with Matt?
Jay, Vas, Bruno, Nick
how to find a date?
take some time beforehand and use a co-working to collect trust related topics
could do it or do it together with Matt
Proposal
Ask Matt if they have an agenda and plan for the meeting, propose to use co-working time (August 7th)
Jay, Vas, Bruno and Nick will take part
continue in co-working
review List of ideas at the bottom of this page, remove items that magically happened and celebrate! [Nathalie]
“retribution” terminology confusing, could mean punishment
some confusion/overwhelm about all the details
leaning towards the option of leaving it completely
although can be useful to have examples of how we can make money flow, e.g. some monthly, some time based, some task based
would be against getting rid of it entirely, as would lose information
getting rid of it? in law there is an agreement and a guidance document, maybe that’s what we need here. Guidance document can be more wordy and doesn’t need to be on a level of agreement
how to onboard people to a new money paradigm
process is conversation based, this seems to be the essance
additional advice document could have more help with examples and link
Next steps
put proposal in forum and continue conversation there [Jay]
continue as slow conversation, no decision now
mini-updates?
bring polls design into meeting for discussion/approval [Bruno]
having a menu entry on left to show all polls in group?
put it in mental checklist, it evaporated
would be nice to have a place to share the polls, wondered about the size of the menu…
maybe a redesign of main menu…
easiest solution would be add another item
also likes it, straight-forward
there will be more requests in the future and we can keep impoving it
time-bounds came up quickly in feedback round e.g. useful for Warsaw group
adding bonus features while developing
core features and bonus feature list for development
get everything on forum thread (see outcome)
how does it relate to agreements, membership reviews
also relates to menu: governance, coordiantion, communication
Proposal:
take this as core feature for polls
Reactions
looks good as a must-have
nothing more to add
makes sense, well defined
no objections raised
plan to move forward? Bruno document and summarise on forum, could request nlnet money (Bruno) and then do bank paymet to oc, Nick could start working on it in a couple of weeks
feel quite opposed, it’s double the amount, and if it’s only because they don’t have the option, doesn’t seem enough reason, not sure if I actually want to object, but want to raise it, we don’t have tonnes of money, unclear, might let it pass
wonder why they have such a different amount?
Operational part of doing payments
think there might be another way how to do it… not sure if it is better
went back to allforclimate notes, could go to karrot page, submit an expense request, then could choose an organisation, then would require them to send us an invoice, not sure which way makes more sense
can explore it more in co-working
this option makes more sense, not going through personal bank accounts, would like to see money flowing through collectives and organisations
Proposal: Willing to pay 108GBP/year, pending the exploration of payment options.
Consent round
Bruno: Object: Request Coop-Cloud to be consistent
Nathalie: consent
Jay: consent
Nick: consent
Proposal: Willing to pay 108GBP/year, pending the exploration of payment options and request Coop-Cloud to be consistent
agreement feature and group governance, have a default agreement coming with the software
main point is making implicit choices more explicit
sth like ‘terms of agreement’, not in legal terms but more
sometimes groups are a bit unware of how to use features
bruno
makes sense, we ve seen group’s having confusions with karrot-trust system, I think it would be nice to have some default agreements, how it works on karrot, not trying to impose but making clear that with some aspects, the have to live with
try to list what these things are (e.g. membership review process, editor roles, trust karrots)
vas
default agreement or manual?
example of a group that bypassed the trust system and created an admin
people tend to use Karrot in their ways, like carrots as likes
tend towards making it as a list of things to make it clear, but hard to impose them to people, because they will bypass
makes sense to have a forum post to discuss it and have different views
sees the potential of getting people to use and think about agreements as a feature
bruno
having default agreements is a way to nudge, make it more visible
groups can then change that agreement if they want to use Karrot in another way it was intended
stays in the ideas section for now and we link the notes that we have started the disc already on that
Open Collective account
set up contribution levels with descriptions?
in the contribute section what tiers we can have
happy to remove the default options and leave one-time donation
include link, or more inside Karrot?
when do we make it really public?
make a banner?
deeper integration?
I d put that more into the future as a question [nathalie]
do we want to promote our open collective account?
question for essen fur alles for example?
not sure yet to contact them
feels like it is still an exploring phase
wonder if nlnet will be happy with the way the payment was handled on opencollective (nathalie)
I was also bit surprised (Bruno)
also checked opencollective today and are assuming Nick was in touch with nlnet (vas)
slightly dissappointment that money still needs to flow through us e.g. with the coop-cloud payment (vas)
how easy or unconvenient
ent would it be for them, seems like a good case
need to explore more, what are good/ bad sides
go ahead and use opencollective as our accounting tool, but be a bit catious and still see this as an experiment
also on bigger scale, for which groups does opencollective make sense?
being more action oriented
remove default options for donations
include link on forum
explore deeper integration further
for example groups having their own open-collective account
ask Essen für Alle for feedback and explore together
remove the default options on opencollective [vas]
done! just one option now, flexible one-time or recurring donation
check last email convo between Nick and foodsharing Warsaw [vas and the rest]
some people read it, and updated people at last co-working, and up for discussion today
check opencollective and relevant discussion here and come up with a proposal and check convos on funding place on our Karrot group [vas]
hopefully continue on coworking tomorrow, and explore what we might be able to do, to link opencollective with karrot a bit more
4. Discussion Points
mini updates
received first nlnet money
donate from personal to opencollective
needs manual process, financial admin
choose where u are donating from
select karrot org or other org
nlnet account on opencollective?
linked nlnet
should nlnet be aware of that?
know that other projects created phantom orgs for payment
would need to revisit emails for exact info around this
donation from personal account to karrot?
two donations chain
personal to karrot,
everyone responsible for own taxes
donation from personal to opencollective?
how to access email? [Jay]
we have an email integration with the forum
warsaw situation [nick + everyone else who read through]
starting thing with one person from Warsaw, years going back having chats with them, was a hectic time for me, had minimal timme to think or reflect, my sense was that harm was perpetrated in the immediate situation, someone stalking another person
decided to cc info@karrot.world
to trace the whole thing you need to expand the converstaion (3 dots)
block access to this guy, built in to django
was voted out already
allegation was that he was accessing private info, so there was a bit of panick about data security, gdpr,
I was then also accessing this situation from a technincal angle
there seemsm to be a bug: not meant to open ones prof if u are not in the same group
but this is not true
I suspended that user
decided that we cant wait around to discuss and that there was a need for more immediate action
they were sort of loosing trust on karrot but they were content/happy that we acted ]
same person started using FB afterwards where we cannot do much
protection mechanisms as a community and a team that can be more effective to more fixed, bureaucratic security mechanisms
feels a bit messy and i have a strong belief that we can put sth forward
round:
was good to take pre-cautionary action to restrict the user
would be interesting to investigate what triggered all that
previously would have argued to never exclude anyone, but after 12 years of these movements, realise limitations on resources/capacity to deal with situations in depth
wondering what the terms for suspending someone from an instance
wondering what happens if they created a new group
questions:
did it happen before to block someone from a whole instance? did we do it? group level vs instance level
no
our job is walking the tightrope between ‘it there business’ and ‘we ll do everything to heal your pain/trauma’
with having the technical power commes with the responsibility
not using the power can be as active as not using it
future meeting:
discuss the approach for adding nlnet money to karrot opencollective
Date: 2024-08-20 on Karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: vas & others
Participants: nick, jay, bruno, vas, butze
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance
duration: 11.30 CEST
information? any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
vasilis: got some money for par-courier (parcour + courier) - critique of dark side of gig economy, 1 month of research to find out The Thing, and if there is potential, 2000EUR
going to poke philip for it
nick: sharedfutures, want to exlore the relationship with Karrot
jay: foodsharing luxembourg Bonnevoie fridge is gone
next meeting: weekly meeting and co-working: nick, vas, jay, bruno
Bruno: read emails, got some understanding, came across the forum post questioning the decision, set a boundaries between responsibilities, karrot-team vs karrot groups, where our responsibility lies?
Vas:
the way nick acted was meaningful and happy he acted this way
consideration is whether we should make it more legit, not just trusting individual people in groups
so maybe like we did before with modifying the database, do something that is more official, e.g. signed by three people, so we don’t have to reinvent the wheel every time, we need adapations
yes we trust individuals, but there might be the case someone comes along we don’t know in person
I get the question, where our responsiblities start and end? how to make separation between karrot as a platform and karrot groups… stepping in is showing solidarity to the people that got harrassed or stalked, also thinking about the conflict in solikyl, and information sharing… maybe a bigger discussion about how groups accept new members, groups are the ones to decide who is in group
one idea: come up with something less personalised, that doesn’t depend on knowing someone in the group we trust
second idea: how do we communicate with groups? e.g with lund assuming “everyone is a sweetheart” is not always true… how can we refer to cases we know of in the past, e.g. let people know there might be difficulties that come up, and that they have to take responsiblities and be proactive
Jay:
could talk about it for an hour
mentions of sharing private information, menacing, turning up to foodsharing collection points, the person denied using private information, but did not deny turning up to uninvited events (so more likely to be true)
did not use information to menace information, but used it to let them know their data could be exposed, so would refrain from that accusation. claims he was the first person to mention that data was exposed.
agree with vas, we should document how we handle these kind of conflicts, so we can refer to it in the future, and justify our actions, so people can feel more fairly treated, accessible to everyone, and policies we are coherent with
brought up to many issues that would be interesting to discuss, you can find my comments in forum if you want to engage with that
q: person was trying to show data was exposed within group? he says thanks to him they changed a way they published data within the group, hard to understand (language reasons perhaps). someone from the trust group resigned throughout the process, perhaps because they didn’t agree with how the process unfolded (not clear though)
bruno q:
they were removed by the membership review process by the time nick acted. yes.
any idea why he wanted to still be a member? not clear… curious. doesn’t seem to want to let it go. purpose is not clear.
butze
really like that you people engage so much and care so much, I admit I can’t at the moment
was never too much interested in the individual situations, but looked at the big picture, I know not 100% cool, but ok…
not so engaged, do appreciate your efforts
nick:
happy to do sensemaking together
agree with what has been said
considersation of our situation within our existing agreement
evaluate existing agreement
or a new agreement to cover what we can cover with this scenario
wonder if we can do it effectively and prior wisdom
anyone wanats to take a lead on that?
bruno:
we’re not going to come up with a policy right now, also aware of time it might take
don’t think it’s that urgent, can start the discussion now and reflect on it
maybe not needed for this specific case
suggest we make a decision for this specific case
separating responsiblities of karrot responsiblity vs group responsiblity
consider the group sovreign, and they’ve made a decision, it might be the group is skewed and not operating well, but I don’t know, and as a team we don’t know, and don’t need to know, might be interesting to know from a design perspective in the future, to build healthier groups, but not for the merits of this case
for us, knowing that group has done a membership review process and the person got excluded
what is relevant for karrot as a team/instance is visiblity of information on profiles, we can work on that, the action taken by nick was justified so that a person that is not supposed to have access to that information does not (which might have been because of the bug).
group expressed a wish
now coming to a proposal: we excluded you from the instance on those grounds so you would not have access (due to bug), can thank them, if they want to continue using karrot without another profile that’s ok, proposal for this specific decision
and the rest of the topics are for the group to consider
probably won’t have a decision now for a policy
vas:
quite some time since I saw bruno having so much energy and clarity, happy to see it
clarifying question, what is current situation? expecting there might be more content from him, but not really open question. gave him a chance to clarify himself
bruno covered everything I had in mind. accepting groups have their own responsiblity.
good news a bug was brought up.
one idea: in co-working, check the agreement we have already, try and think how the way acted could fit in the agreement we have already, on which grounds can be justified, and how could we enrich the agreement we have
as a light proposal: would it make sense to link the agreement in the membership review process, as a hard coded thing… so there is a wider agreement in place from the karrot team/instance. leaning towards what bruno and jay implied, that this person should be allowed to write a new profile, and it’s on whichever group they join to assess the application
jay:
if nobody takes the lead, I wouldn’t mind
I think we should fix the data leak bug, and maybe add a profile description length limit
after fixing those, could contact him, and restore his current account
free to create own groups/communities with people that support him, don’t need to going into space of others
thank him for the bug
we can better think how our features affect power related conflicts in local communities, try our best to give good frameworks to avoid these conflicts in the future
only concrete action is fixing the bugs, we’ll do before writing or reactiviting account
hopefully that’ll be a satisfying result
nick:
like the idea to seperate what we do with the specific case with ongoing thing
fix the data access bug
proposal [consent achieved]:
Fix data bug
Fix profile length
Once those are done and deployed, restore his existing account
consent round
bruno: consent (hhappy to leave comms to jay)
vas: consent (agree with bruno)
jay: consent
nick: consent
Jay’s proposal:
Fix data bug
Fix profile leghth
Once those are done and deployed, restore his existing account.
Encourage him to move on from the group. Make clear we are not the judge of what happened between him and FS Warsaw
He can still be active and still create his own group
Thank him for
- bringing up the bug on data leaking
- the theme of power dynamics in local group and say we will commit to improve our framework to better avoid power-related conflicts in local communities
future meetings:
matt update
discuss the approach for adding nlnet money to karrot opencollective
nlnet milestones/pace/etc.
Long messages in german on community forum… what are they [jay]
5. Actions and Outcomes
do rfp after the above is done [Bruno]
check opencollective (regarding linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
anxious/worried withought furthering the project, delivering stuff, balance feels more to ‘other stuff’ and not to actually making things that someone is using.
clearer flow of things getting in the pipeline and becoming tasks
Vas: was concentrated on ph.d. therefore was not really engaged. after 11th of octorber Vas can hopefully make more time available and contribute. hears Nick’s ‘fear’
jay: more focus on tasks, will work it out regarding co-working as Jay goes to a new office and hard to be in co-working session
butze:reminded of ‘to much talking little is done’ from days in community garden. Need to engage more on that. Task will be to engage more with the platfrom itself. I head what nick is saying, we need to focus more on tasks
bruno: will focus on roles and sanctions, will work with Nathalie on roles who is coming back next week, work on documentation for polls, one strategy would support Nick more as has a lot of tasks on his shoulders to avoid a bottleneck situation
nick: dont want to fall in urgency/productivity culture. avoid feeling the whip productivity, I think we are doing well so far, implementing polls I think we can move on to that. trying get more strict using co-working for development
jay: how the whole procedure works? excalidraw is broken down to NLnet taks, money amounts are connected with funding applications, using into the normal Karrot system, goes to the shared pot, Jay’s task doesnt need to go to the excalidraw but they go to the board (on the forum). Money agreement is indipendent to the money agreement.
money distribtion agreement, no money distribution by task, money goes to karrot pot, internaly when you choose whatever task, it doesnt matter, no task is connected to money
vasilis and jay want to get involved in the design process of both roles and sanctions (important to check with Nathalie first)
discuss the approach for adding nlnet money to karrot opencollective
mentioned that I ve seen others doing that on opencollective and they mentioned that they were not in charge of that but they implied that is not sth they are against to
nlnet is more transparent, second option is ingognito, 3rd the personal one which is not
bruno: would prefer doing the Nlnet, maybe a suggestion would be to add a disclaimer on the prof of the organisation, created by karrot-team for the sake of transprency
jay: Nlnet option with a disclaimer sounds reasonable
vas: don’t like the idea of a disclaimer. Maybe write back to Nlnet and ask if they’re ok
nick: asking them is a good idea, worth getting nathaliea input since nathalie raised this point
wait for answers until we do any further transfer of money
check opencollective (regarding linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
keep it on the side for now?
wait until community support software
middle way - in the about/info page, add a new icon for “funding” or something, and an extra tab/section/page
shows us (karrot team)
short text explaining why we have a fiscal host and what it is
refer to needs-based system for money-distribution
link to open collective
make it more prominent in the future once we have a clearer community supported software model
Jay: is ok with what Vas suggested
nick: makes sense to have it to middle way is sth that can be done, makes a step towards there (CSS), for Essen Fur Alle we decided to keep the wise account for now
bruno: trying to visualise how we ll have sth in place in the about page, woudnt seem to accesisive to add sth more, pull sth together to have a more comprehensive page, how its funded, who is behind it, a donate button?, as simple as that? lead to the opencollective page, where we can add some explanation on how funding works, more simple solution
important to make it visible how we work regarding money and funding
reminder that we don’t add loads of text because of translation. What should be translated?
could be possible to use the description on Open Collective to describe how it works on Karrot, and connect that to Karrot
to be continued…
Long messages in german on community forum… what are they [jay]
it’s spam
we could set up a spam protection
let’s help each other out deleting it
next week:
money circle
clarity about our agreement
payments now that we changed accounts
database interventions [vas]
checking agreement we already have about removing people from groups, and see how it relates to last situation
Butze’s proposed time change for co-working (Jay is also interested)
check opencollective (regarding linking opencollective and karrot instance)
5. Actions and Outcomes
check Wise account to receive Nlnet’s money [Bruno]
push forward with deploying profile access fix [nick]
confirm dates with Matt [Vas]
coordinate with Nathalie about design processes [Bruno]
check with nathalie about NLnet opencollective [vas]
write to NLnet about using their name/logo on opencollective [Nick]
Date: 2024-09-03 on Karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: bruno et al.
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance
duration: up to 11:30 CEST
information? any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
nick: had a chat with Peter from Shared Futures. Nick might have a consultant role. Been arguing to turn the codebase to Karrot.
bruno: starting research assistant position next week on wednesday (probably, not quite defined yet, but won’t be there next wednesday)
research is for a project called “circular grassroots”, in different cities, and working on the part in gothenburg, looking at grassroots initiatives here, collecting data - about value created by these initiatives, using qualatatatatative and quantitatatatatative approaches
next meeting: weekly meeting and co-working:
co-working wednesday: nick, nathalie, bruno
next week meeting: nick, …
pick facilitator for next week: bruno (backup…)
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
check Wise account to receive Nlnet’s money [Bruno]
done
extra check, money is in account (personal)
transfer money?
push forward with deploying profile access fix [nick]
nope
confirm dates with Matt [Vas]
nope
coordinate with Nathalie about design processes [Bruno]
wrote message, on discussion points for today
check with nathalie about NLnet opencollective [vas]
nope
put on agenda for today…
write to NLnet about using their name/logo on opencollective [Nick]
not convinced there’s a clear benefit to put the amount of work given limited capacity
money circle
clarity about our agreement
payments now that we changed accounts
round to get clarity on what we’re doing right now
bruno:
nice to settle into a new routine / way of operating
personally have to figure out payment logistics, e.g. freelance business
no pressing need right now, so chill , happy to hear from people if current flow of holding payments works
could discuss amounts
nathalie:
situation hasn’t changed, no other income source, karrot, SoFa, and potential self-employment sources, also in social support system
increasing earnings, reduces social support, excluding a threshold
more secure/at ease earning some money
had an assumption we stopped doing payments, but agreement is still valid, is it true? do we re-negotiate from new? how do we count for previous months
agrement was 200/month, if it’s still valid but no payments, balance of 800, but seems a lot, do we pay? or new agreement? (losing a bit in the middle)
could agree today on some number, and do some payments, doing it in september would be nice
doing 6 month period forecasts, so wondering how to deal with it
don’t have strong feelings to holding of payments to combine them, easy enough when one person does it, but could get complicated
personal responsiblity to managing money, so maybe keeping track of build-up
nick:
getting clarity and whatever new/old agreement is
operational questions towards money flow
agreement what we distribute
add-up payments in between? but not have that money
do I feel justified to take higher amount?
have a negotiation about the last period
do the calculations
one-off decision for past bits, decide on amounts going forward
only 3 of us here, Vas receiving money in the past
proposal to get back to the next meeting
check OC balance + calculate missing months
OC: 1,934.41 (+ 1,500 on its way)
3434.41
not including September
Bruno from April onwards (to August = 1000EUR)
Nathalie May to August (4 months): 200EUR * 4 = 800€
Nick: July & August missing 500€ * 2 = 1000€
Vas: July & August missing 230€ * 2 = 460€
3260€ total - we have all the money, once bruno transfers
decide on whether payments have been building up and how to manage them
bruno:
would be right to assume payments have been building up, no change in the agreement itself, don’t recall any change, so logical to assume they have been building up
also nice opportunity to check and make it clear, is it a nice way to operate, do we want it? could make confusion
no suggestions for the future
nathalie:
assumption it was building up, … didn’t think about it a lot
when starting thinking, it wasn’t that clear…
is it a mode of operating we enjoy
if we didn’t have money coming, assumption might have been payment stops because we have no money… but we do have a source
how do we make sure there is a source?
did notice, I’d like that money, feeling low, feels appropriate amount, would like that
nick:
notice it was unclear
appreciate that Karrot does not shut down when money stops, the maleability of the project
I’d really value receiving money. Boat’s expensive!
only income for now
didn’t change the agreement so we continue with it
I’d be happy havnig less money but that’s for one month of less work only
looks a bit suspicious nlnet having the logo, etc. but not being nlnet, and bruno/vas agreed with that sense
like both approaches, talking to nlnet, making sure it’s ok
curious why vas wasn’t in favour of the disclaimer
could name it “nlnet to karrot”, or write something in the description
understand how it’s nicer on our profile to show it’s from nlnet
neither personal or incognito is exactly right
wondering if you can change the name of a money “subject” - always says “financial contribution to” (or whatever), can’t change it really probably - rather than “transferring money x”
happy to wait for reply from nlnet, depends how quickly we want it transfered
bruno:
still in agreement with that way of proceed, hoping nlnet will give us an OK, and we can go ahead like that
nick:
useful with Nathalie’s input
do the homework and get Nlnet’s reply (expecting an ok, giving their previous rection)
putting money in
check with Nlnet and proceed based on that
add others as admin of the nlnet account!
bank transfer, manually
taking it out
(support something so that Nathalie can send an invoice already)
nathalie:
technical level, clear, have business, can do invoices
some co-ordination, can I do 800EUR? means either nick or vasilis waits, or do less and wait? propose: I do the whole amount
bruno:
not clear how I will do it technically, cannot currently make invoices, have to figure it out
whatever nathalie does, will not affect me
nick:
also clear on technical part
would agree Nathalie takes out whole amount
will wait
might be useful to let Vas do his as well
no need for immediate money
hold off
shortcut money flow (get nlnet money, transfer money to oc)
nathalie:
pro side: saving fees, keeping some flows simpler
con side: less transparency, harder to live money agreement if we do these kind of shortcuts
would be nicer to get things in the common pool of money, so we really separate the flows
do we need to feel the agreements - shortcuts are “advanced mode”, are we ready for them?
also thinking about a shared money group project… having real common account/pot feels better
bruno:
I thought we were settled on doing it all through opencollective, no shortcuts
… but can see it makes sense on the practical side
shortcuts gives accountabiltiy problem, what is then visible to whom, is nicer to show everything on OC page
no strong opinions, more practically leaning towards shortcut, but also like the feeling of keeping things correct, through the accounts
benefit is visiblity of flow of money
nick:
one additional benefit of doing it through OC: reducing confusion
doing shortcuts adds complexity to the conceptual part of in and outs
is there a feature on OC to add manually there’s been an incoming payment?
would advocate doing everything through OC for the conceptual part and having OC as the accounting/recording part, to more easily track our parts
can see the weirdness in the operational part
if we do shortcuts, would advocate for a collective sheet for accounting
metapoint: financial system is built on shortcuts (e.g. credit clearance)
proposal: always put money through OpenCollective account
passed! consent from Nathalie, Bruno, Nick
next time:
new money amounts
UK meeting
plan upcoming design processes
database interventions [vas]
checking agreement we already have about removing people from groups, and see how it relates to last situation
Change time for co-working?
Jay and Butze interested
check opencollective (regarding linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
transfer NlNet money from personal account to OpenCollective [Bruno]
push forward with deploying profile access fix [nick]
confirm dates with Matt [nick]
write to NLnet about using their name/logo on opencollective [Nick]
Date: 2024-09-10 on Karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Jay, Nick, Dave
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance
duration: 11:30 CEST
information? any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
“This afternoon and tonight, we will celebrate 5 years of Foodsharing Luxembourg! This would have been a lot harder without using Karrot! Thank you and the whole Karrot team for your work and and support over all these years. I really appreciate it. ” - from Daniel @ Foodsharing Luxembourg
next meeting: weekly meeting and co-working:
co-working: Nick, Nathalie
meeting: Bruno, Nick, …
pick facilitator for next week: Nick
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
write to NLnet about using their name/logo on opencollective [Nick]
no reply still
transfer NlNet money from personal account to OpenCollective (depending on the above) [Bruno]
transfer money from OpenCollective to personal account [Nathalie]
1000 to 1500 words
− 8-12 questions
− An image of your choice to illustrate the article
− I am sending you the draft edited by APC before publication so that you can give your opinion/amendments.
we’re not actually clear whether it’s a spoken or written interview
agreed to do it!
mission organiser guide + presentation of an initiative [Dave]
if dave is unavailable, nothing happens, so announced “holiday” for the project
so now planning a mission organiser training guide for people
step by step guide
cooking co-operation, 4-5 events per month, needs organising
present guide…
“mission organiser” term, more than just events…
created activities for “request”, e.g. an email coming in that they want food for30 people
copy/paste the request into the activity description
activity type is a “request activity”
someone can sign up to say they will organise it
then you need to create a “mission plan”
whether you need cargo riders, cooks, etc
they have to then create an activity with all the roles - using participant types
have a lot of repeated missions, so make it as easy as possible, so created a “mission format” place type with many places with documentation you can copy and paste in the activity description + anywhere else to share it (e.g. chat groups)
then make a graphic for the event, using canva templates
then “role mobilizing” step, most effective to call people by phone - most effective way to mobilize people - so made lists of people who are interested in doing things e.g. cooking - list of names and numbers (using a place description), and a whatsapp mission group - can create “activities” in whatsapp group
templates for announcements (again in place description, markdown formatting in formatted blocks)
still a bit overwhelming for newcomers to do it, but maybe can get one or two people to do it
sometimes it’s quite simple, e.g. call a cargo rider to move some food
for the requests, instead of copying requests from email, could have a public button on public page to make requests, with a little form
also what would help is public sign up for activities
don’t use karrot so much for missions, but public activities would help people sign up for missions
reactions
nathalie
sounds really nice
we do have an idea to implement some version of roles, and starting design process too
they have a place called rolle, but maybe it can something more specific for roles
sounds like core problem is being the main active person, and how to get people to step up
perhaps having more pre-defined roles could help
I had the experience that getting people in, saying “yeah it’s self-organised”, it’s quite overwhelming, so having structures makes that easier, and can change the roles over time
feels like you hacked karrot a lot like a wiki, overengineered with walls and activities if it’s just a text box?
wondering how the plugins are, so maybe can just create pages… maybe needing blank pages you can write on
didn’t quite get what the “requests” are for the software
really nice to get an insight, sharing information, learnt about the group, nice!
biggest takeaway, invite dave to the role design process
nick
really happy looking at it, love seeing real live activities
make karrot work for you, make it your own
active people vs people in the periphery: core topic for karrot, comes up accross groups
resources: images, text etc, also came up in other project
wish for a bigger design process on this topic, but not something for the near future
one possible feature: add way how to contact groups (like apply button)
many karrot features could be developped to stream-line process
jay
really liked how you hacked the system to make it work for you
don’t have much to add
roles are something we’ve been looking into, sounds interesting, having ways to further organise associations
you’re welcome to join the design sessions to bring some user experience perspective to the design process
bruno
nice to be the last one
most of my thoughts and reactions have been said already
good syncronicity with what people think, see, and observe, and about what we’ve discussed
nice to see the way you use places, became flexible enough to be used, so for future features to make sure to make them flexible
brings me back to a lot of ideas for groups, inbox for group, email or through karrot messaging, for interacting with outside of group (on breaking the silo sessions)
nick mentioned “shared futures”, some correlation in the idea of having a mission/goal orientated thing that takes you through the steps to organise something
related to the idea of task management, e.g. a board thing, trello/kanban style, to separate specific tasks within a bigger project/mission, clear connection to roles there
how to fit all the things together? well, missing capacity…
how do we pick the most useful bits that require the least amount of effort to bring the most out of it, to have the greatest impact
for the near future, the roles design process
dave
see a lot of nice stuff in karrot, can use activity type of tasks
so some adjustments on the user interface
karrot is nice platform as it’s really flexible for movements
being focused, and small improvements, is there room for this?
heard about the design sessions, maybe can join them
where is the room for having this focused chat on small improvements
discussion on possible outcomes
bring this into roles design
bring back another “community cafe” where Karrot groups join and share experiences
more co-working times
experiment with different ways of prioritizing work on Karrot
Dave will contact people from other groups to get together
report back to Karrot team
Change time for co-working?
Jay and Butze interested
adding more?
would anybody enjoying working on more than 1 co-working?
Jay
interested in a dev co-working
afternoon/ evening co-working
after 1600h CEST
or after dinner
Nick
unclear for now how to add another co-working, life a bit chaotic for now
would enjoy additional development focused co-working
usually better working in the morning, but not fixed on that
Nathalie
prefers mornings
a time where people get together
Bruno
evenings are not good
during the day, morning or afternoon (between 9am-3pm)
alternatives: Mondays and Thursdays
hard to find an alternative now. We keep the current time, but can continue the discussion
UK meeting
plan upcoming design processes [R]
new money amounts
database interventions [vas]
checking agreement we already have about removing people from groups, and see how it relates to last situation
check opencollective (regarding linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
check NLnet reply about using their name/logo on opencollective [Nick]
transfer NlNet money from personal account to OpenCollective (depending on the above) [Bruno]
push forward with deploying profile access fix [nick]
check with Butze and Vas about his times for co-working [Bruno]
Date: 2024-09-17 on Karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: Vas
Participants: Nick, Philip, Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie, Jay
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance
duration: 10:30 CEST
information? any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
? nothing!
next meeting: weekly meeting and co-working:
co-working: Nick, Jay, Matt (?), Bruno, Nathalie
meeting
pick facilitator for next week: Vas?
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
transfer NlNet money from personal account to OpenCollective (depending on the above) [Bruno]
push forward with deploying profile access fix [nick]
I did it
check NLnet reply about using their name/logo on opencollective [Nick]
check with Butze and Vas about their times for co-working [Bruno]
had a little thread on it in general place, no conclusion yet
4. Discussion Points
UK meeting
mention matt dowse co-working
needs a follow-up
other organising
Nick:
needs to get my head around this, boat might not be the place to stay? Worth making a standby plan, suggest renting an apt in Bristol. For once I dont have travel logistics! Make a collaborative map https://facilmap.org/1XikMTJATp3Ja47l: its like a pad but on a maphtt
Butze: got a plan to come to the UK, need to organise, ready to book, still some open question,
Vas:
excited! 1 issue, lots of travel plans, and causing lots of emissions, because of phd viva
try and get the university to cover travel expenses
super easy with accomodation, if we can stay on boat, good, or rent airbnb, all good
7th oct flying to newcastle
16th oct flying back to greece
then fly back from greece to UK (london or bristol)
Bruno:
leaning towards not going, needs at least 24h to bus/train, dont feel like taking the plane, at least not in person
Nathalie:
I m also ready to book, still prefer to take the train, DB only to london and then local train. talked accomodation, 2 days earlier, one full day to settle, then workshop, some karrot (bonding and an extra sessio), maybe have access to a uni room to do some karrot co-working after
bit worried about staying on the boat if that is the case
Jay:
plane is the cheapest option
whether it would help someone to get the van, anyone interested? Ppl let me know on that
Nick:
cheap options with buses as well, NExpress, Megabus
will be nearby Bristol, be nearby one of the train station
there is a housing coop in Bristol, there is a benefit though to be nearby the uni, bristol is a big place
Quick round on what we need to book:
Nick:
predicted boat station
location
things to stay near the boat
Butze:
SE of Austria, might fly, need to know when the first day and the last day when I can sleep somewhere
and if we book an airbnb for longer time
vas:
would be easier to fly to germany, and could join in van, only thing is logistics, which day, how much time driving, etc…
accomodation-wise easy
nathalie:
basically have the same question as butze,
would prefer to know accomodation is booked first, before travel
jay:
bringing van is nice for me as accomodation comes with me
but if we have accomodation all together, then van less interesting
idea to make a calender to put the dates we would/could travel
check plans
van can be done in one day (10h drive)
nathalie:
question about the budget, would be willing to spend the budget on the trip, and even add more from karrot funds
get the first meeting next week, request to check the forum post
new money amounts
dig up the current amounts
nick 500
always aware, more than double, still feel consious of that, do feel a bit of guilt there, its also not a lot of money, still hold quite a lot of responsibility, have the intention to keep working, really useful having some income, would like to keep it the same, be open to ppl saying u should have a bit less, curious about ppl’s feelings, would welcome input, otherwise I just leave it htere
vas 230
haven’t been doing anything for the last months, but my only income at the moment, open to people saying “you shouldn’t have this money from karrot”, so happy to discuss that
keep postponing, final date for viva coming up, hoping to get my hands more on karrot, still active/inactive
be happy to keep amount coming in
expected to get some money for parkcourier thing, but not going to do that
bruno 200
not sure how active I ve been with Karrot, done the design thing on polls, keeping up minimun level of commitment, will continue with that, not in a tight situation financially, could go down if we ll need to dispose, would be happy to keep it as it is, open to objections
nathalie 200
happy with this amount for now, look back to my time-tracking Karrot history, I have more hours accumulated than the amount, dont know what it means, personally, asking at which point I should prioritise paid work, today is not the day I start being strict about it, one additional thing…coding work still in learning, feeling like I am doing an apprentiship so wondering if I should take these hours in consideration when it comes to Karrot money
jay
very surprised, thought its on how much you need and not really on how much you do, parts of the philosophy is that we are support part of the Karrot-team, atm I am happy since I have a job that pays me enough, scary to think, if I left my job, get some money from Karrot? just to be able to exist, someotimes I think about it, atm I ll keep my job and 0 from Karrot
butze 0
not present, but has always indicated he does not want to receive money from karrot
reflections
Nick: paying for what you need, embodied reality of having this feeling of guilt, so conditioned with that thing, its more complicated dialogue basesd thing, share thoughts, feelings, I absolutely like that karrot its some safety money, challenge Nathalie to put up the money up. Being paid to learn is normal and can be there
vas: reflection on what jay said, second what nick said, reality is way more convoluted, so nice to share our senses of guilt about not doing much, actually being supported for being part of karrot team, even though not doing much. fair to feel guilty though given we’re indoctrinated by the culture. useful comment to see how theory of money distribution meets reality in our conversations. considering the amounts, no objections for anyone.
bruno: working protestant moral ethics, try to challenge, it could also be that morals of reciprocity, at least for me I can allow myself to think of long term commitment and long-term reciprocity, if there is the need to get more money, if we dont burn the whole budget in the next month, we should allow that, fine with the current amounts, happy if ppl would like to go up
nathalie: feel some resistancee to some terms dropped today, i have a cynical voice today, but still feel like I dont know and we dont know how ‘to solve money’. Doesnt feel like really a solution. Happy to keep the amounts
jay: sorry if I sounded a bit critical, its fine to feel guilt, contributions might not be always possible to count in money, not dissapointed, obviously is ‘natural’ to think this way, happy if Nathalie to increase, really appreciate the fact that Nick mentioned Karrot money as a safety net.
Consent round:keep the amounts and re-evaluating amounts:
CONSENT (all)
add a new activity [Nick]
Next week:
new application from a month ago
should we have an official approval process?
database interventions [vas]
checking agreement we already have about removing people from groups, and see how it relates to last situation
check opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
remind matt about chatting tomorrow about bristol plans [Nick]
transfer NlNet money from personal account to OpenCollective (depending on the above) [Bruno]
[follow-up] check NLnet reply about using their name/logo on opencollective [Nick]
share with nathalie which profiles to check [Nick]
contacted Karolina FSW for design session on sanctions
informed her about bugfix and invite her to sanctions design session
suggested a time 2pm, any day monday → friday, so trying to set a date now to talk to her, and maybe invite Tomek too, book it, then try and get more people on board, could also try working separately with groups if they don’t come to the same session, exploratory stage for now
more planning in co-working tomorrow
chat with Eszter
intro
Nick: working together on shared futures platform, designer - developer pair, was very nice, get into development more, use this as a space to do so
Eszter: would like to contribute to karrot, succesful and complex platform, UX and design oriented work, very experienced, wanting to be moe serious about development, hasn’t happened yet, want it to be useful for karrot
round
Nathalie: sounds all very nice, take some time to get orientated, then can choose from the bouqut of things
butze: have no idea where to make a contribution, pass on
Bruno: having a professional designer contributing would be great! been using penpot. Have been trying design process based on Google sprint. Easy going way of working, you’ll need to find your place
Nick: Two interested things, desing and dev. Don’t want to make it a second job. Work against urgency culture. A lot to say about how we work, how we distribute money among us, how we do desing process etc.
Eszter: happy to come over to Bristol, London based, makes sense that I need to figure things out. Will nicely align with coop work. Time is limited, anamorph coop as ful-time engangement. Interested to work on something that is alive and existing. Start on something small. Come to meetings and see! Love the video chat!
bristol plans
2 days workshop 31.10 and 01.11 in Bristol with Matt Dowse
2000 pounds from Bristol uni to fund us
rent an apparment in Bristol Tuesday to Saturday (4 nights) and boat after
Butze: booked travels for 29th already, stay until 4th/5th, indicated preference about apartment in chat, come grom Graz
Nathalie: airbnb has quite good cancellation policy, and prices going up now… maybe just pick the cheapest one, might be some shared beds, but ok with that, not sure how long I’ll stay, but 29th is fixed, so could book that, have to think about it
Eszter: if you want to stop by in London, can have a visit, lots of co-ops in a space, and can put someone up in living room, slightly tight, but living room ok, office has space informally, might be able to stay there if they want, can come for one day, it’s not far
Nick: stay after call and do the booking, electrics sorted, looked at stove, try to have it fitted, get toilet seat, could get campervan from my dad and park it nearby, has chemical toilet
butze: will go into the literature for community and trust
bruno: please share the literature!
next time:
new application from a month ago [jay?]
should we have an official approval process?
database interventions [vas]
checking agreement we already have about removing people from groups, and see how it relates to last situation
check opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
check with Jay about follow up to The Person reply [Nick]
we got our heads back into the topic, wrote lots of difficult questions and “how might we…” statements, started drawing a map using excalidraw
map is drawing the journey of a karrot user entering the group and then getting a custom role, that’s starting point for next time, then start sketching
noticed someone who had been trying to join Karrot Team & Feedback group for a month
wondered why we hadn’t accepted them, then just accepted them eventually
should we have an official approval process? am I allowed? should we discuss each time? was confused!
reactions:
Vas: can’t say much, pass
Bruno:
for this particular case, did read it, reaction was he might be a bit confused what he is applying to, might have not ended up where he expected, maybe worth clarifying what they are trying to do. imagined others had similar reactions, and didn’t put time/effort to answer properly.
more generally, don’t remember if we had any particular process, don’t think so, quite open, when we denied access it was on the basis of misunderstanding, checking with them whether it’s where they really want to apply, sometimes no answer came, so deny application
Nathalie:
remembering having the same question, aha moment came that there wasn’t a big risk of accepting them, as if they’re inactive, they’ll get auto-removed over time, and we can trust our own software and use the membership review process if needed, even if it’s a bit unclear or they’re not at the right place
sometimes I denied when there was a message and a reply from us, then nothing for a long time
also agree sometimes they sit there for a long time, can’t tell why I didn’t act on it, maybe just slips my mind, and not such a clear case
seems maybe too much to add process around this, I’d be fine having it as a group responsibility, although maybe worth having more formal process around it
Nick:
confusion case, in the last case, might be the korean buying-selling platform, not a big risk of accepting, leaving it as a group responsibility
Butze:
nothing to add, agree with what Nathalie and Nick said, good that you replied
Eszter:
if there’s no problem with accepting, better to err on the side of being overly broad than narrow
Jay:
clarify what “group responsibility” means → anyone can individually decide to accept
confusion here might have been they thought we organise the foodsaving, rather than supporting groups to organise themselves
happy to accept/reply if there is a huge confusion
had wondered if I did the right thing, and maybe there was a process
summary: conversation helped jay to feel empowered to act, and everyone in group who is editor can accept people in, and we’re tend on the side to accept people
database interventions [vas]
checking agreement we already have about removing people from groups, and see how it relates to last situation
we have our agreement in place for how to handle situations where we modify the database, did a few edits in a pad
general feeling was it kind of works as it is with some minimal changes
some questions to add in about what’s been happening in the last few weeks
will look for the pad for the edits with a few suggestions
why did we start looking ta this agreement again?
because we had case in fsw
nick acted, and we wanted to check whether to follow the formal process as we did with fslux
one of us would go back to the group and share the information
was not followed on this occasion, do we need another agreement that fits in the case
Next:
check opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
smaller opencollective tasks [Nathalie]
payment to coop cloud (Nathalie could reach out to allforclimate)
we don’t usually delete things, they are just hidden
start deleting in database. might lead to errors (e.g. references)
prefer a way to mark it as over
or redirect to new instance
what satisfies their needs?
remove all members and mark as inactive
Jay:
propose solutions and ask their opinion
why do they want it deleted?
marking as inactive seems fine solution
Q: how do users find LUX when they have their own instance?
A: there is no connection between instances, you don’t see the LUX groups on karrot.world. They do their own advertising. Maybe something in the future
Bruno:
wasn’t aware of complexity in deleting, alternative sounds fine
one of their reasons: reduce confusion
make sure users in that group know what’s happening, give time before implementation
proposal: give Nick mandate to find best solution
Nick:
they want to keep the main group, it’s the secondary group they want deleted
same things apply
consent round
Nathalie: consent
Nick: consent
Jay: consent
Bruno: consent
smaller opencollective tasks [Nathalie]
payment to coop cloud (Nathalie could reach out to allforclimate)
still haven’t done the payment?
wants to see if there’s a way to make a direct payment between collectives
Essen für Alle donation
still going to Wise account
Nathalie would be happy to ask them to use OC
Nick
got message from coop cloud about tiers, it’s on their mind
no big feelings here
assigned action items to Nathalie
Bruno
email from allforclimate with newsletter
having upcoming events, keep eyes open
publishing minutes [Jay]
having everything out in the open
lack of private spaces
particular thinking about conflict resolution
interested in brainstroming about this
do you also feel this need?
reactions
Bruno
find good balance between transparancy and more personal spaces
not having names was one way in the past
in favor of keeping public notes
being aware when it might be sensitive, make it clear when not to take notes
Nick
see limitations with our communication tools
not writing everything in the minutes
conflict resolution is also quite a public discussion in a karrot group - something that was pointed out before
transparency by default supports accountability
coming from early project days
doesn’t have to be the two extremes
evolving the features of karrot to support all groups and us
Nathalie
share need for more private space
use discourse forum for that and some other tools
not everything has to be written, can keep off the protocol
also surprised when coming to Karrot and having name there
likes talking about transparency
Jay
agrees with transpareny first policy
anonymise names, thinking about someones reputation
we were giving our opinions and being biased
propose to move confidental minutes to another pad
Nick
taking minutes in a private thread as a new idea
Bruno
seems like something we’ve been doing, being more conscious now, sounds reasonable
Nathalie
urge to go back to minutes to see if we reedit things, might be worth to check
appreciate to check our biases
proposal: move confidental minutes to another private place
Nick
this was always an option, good reminder, good reflections
Bruno
moment of evaluation
all agree
application in playground group
Nicks needs more trust!
Jay added to playground
new french group
Next:
check opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
reply to Zbigniew [Nick]
find the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
reply to armor coalition and re-activate group [Nick]
communicate with LUX group about deleting one karrot group and take action based on mandate [Nick]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
comes from a foundation for human technologies in krakow
had some trouble signing up to the forum
info on self-host at the docs
bruno will reply
nice suite of tools he mentioned
nathalie met them in SoFa community of practise, had an email chat
maybe they’re not clear already if they were aware nathalie is also in karrot
could open the idea for having a call
intersection of design processes (roles and sanctions)
on first sanctions call, we had karolina, joachim, and karrot team peeps
became clear that it’s hard to perform the role of conflict mediation
and working out who will be deciding on the sanctions
so relates to roles a lot, circles, groups, etc…
bruno working on map as the next step
two ways going forward
integrate with the roles
or very minimal version (e.g. whoever has editing permissions can apply the sanctions)
could discuss this evening if there is space…
comments
we also have membership voting process, not just editor roles doing things
see the connection, but not a fan of merging, as it complicates things, hard to deal with
roles would need to be more developed to plug in the sanctions, and not clear sense of what will come out of the roles
keep updating each other with how things are going, but trying to keep them independent for now, and merge coming later
thinking about what happens in the groups, features get very related
takeaway from sanctions is the key difficulty of getting people into ther role of mediators
selection process in FSW
what if it does not work out?
more important is how it can represent what the group does
less important having the very detailed technical features
we do have the problem of who gets to configure things in the group? who has authority to act?
history feature helped with that
see the design process as simplifying the complexity
having the editor do the sanction is a default, then later we can see how a different role can be created
in sanction design process, brought up a clear use case for a different role, or for sanctions work fallback on default of editor role
use case of how to groups choose the people who can make decisions
capturing the idea that we might want to review what a person sees when they get editor access, maybe can link that to more information, and the agreements, etc. at the moment you get an email and a notification, but could make people more aware of what you can do → trying to understand what would be the benefit of splitting up editor rights, trying to align what people do with things they have a mandate to do, including the roles
useful to have updates/recap during these sessions since not everyone is present in all of them
Next:
check opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
reply to Zbigniew [Nick]
find the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
communicate with LUX group about deleting one karrot group and take action based on mandate [Nick]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
citizen engagement that came out of Spanish social movements ‘indignados’, for participatory budgeting, referendum, voting, participatory kind of stuff
might be worth getting some inspiration
karrot sessions during UK time
matt joined last co-working
Vas:
more networking/“lobbying” activity
it’s worth having a session between us before the events
first time we have proper collaboration with uni. what do we want of this?
reverse the consent form in the relationship between uni and [object of study] Karrot
happy to have roles design session
Nick:
place bristol goes Karrot,
Matt shared lots of thoughts, connecting with other initiatives
1-5-10 thing last year, nice opportunity to bring some of that in
curious spaces and speculative fiction, do some excersise about that, look/remember/explore big motivations behind working with Karrot
other things using Karrot as a base, use Karrot as a foundation, which now includes working with us quite a lot, ‘advertise’/outreach opportunity
would like it if enough money is running into Karrot, so K becomes a main thing, what would that look like?
do more planning/ scheduling Wednesday early evening when everyone arrives
Matt will provide frame for Thursday/ Friday days
could Matt hook us up with some nice local initiatives and doing some field visits in Bristol?
forum/wiki idea
search on Karrot wall
would search be possible?
have same credentials to log in with Karrot and a forum/wiki
Bruno: case is not clear enough, so maybe ask more, can relate to my own group where we use discourse forum where we use pads and stuff, wiki might not be nessecary for our case, investigate further
Nick: Sth that comes up all the time, Karrot is not suf to put all things on what our forum offers, seems that its another design process to understand what we are talking here, information storage and retrieval, acknowledge that we might not have capacity atm, single sign-on approach, looked into that before, i feel that is less designy process but more technical, ‘what is ur approach?’ might be asking to share/discuss our approach
search suggestion, use a place to store and retrieve/search information, search feels that is missing on Karrot but now comes up, no searchability atm
searching is complicated, language specific requirements that makes things more complicated, esp when things can be multilanguage, makes it more tricky (stemming stuff)
Vas: makes sense, as building an archive. thinking about data portability and how to export it, in case something bad happens. we lack info on what they want to search
Nathalie: ask for more examples/cases, what sort of info should be retrievable?, do not get what it is envisioned here, knowlegde sharing, accessibility question? who is editing? could just be a link to tools that we find useful, if u are looking for this or that…this is what we use
Next meeting:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
find the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
co-working on Wdsday 23/Oct
enact the lux group cleanup [Nick]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
check karrot goes bristol [Vas]
reach out to Karolina and ask for more details/examples [Bruno]
Date: 2024-11-12 on Karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno, Butze
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance
duration: up to the hour (11 CET), then see
information? any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
vasilis and co-ordinator of local siegen fablab have met and how they can co-ordinate/co-operate
proposal, rural makerspaces, connecting two maker spaces, comparisons, sharing knowledge/experiences
also testing how karrot could work in makerspaces
how to connect food scene and maker scene, community fridge (maybe with sensors, etc), karrot
anton, foodsharing dev, joined research team, talked about coming to a karrot call, and is interested, maybe joining next week
next meetings:
co-working: bruno, nick, maybe others later
weekly: nick, nathalie, butze, maybe bruno
groups cafe 18:00 CET tuesday: dave
pick facilitator for next weekly meeting: nick
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
find the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
co-working on Wdsday 23/Oct
enact the lux group cleanup [Nick]
slipped my task list
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
not yet
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
not yet
check karrot goes bristol [Vas]
reach out to Karolina and ask for more details/examples [Bruno]
regarding wiki/forum idea
email sent, maybe check for a reply
4. Discussion Points
updates
Marcus (gbg) showed interest in contributing
person that came to community kitchen project
already thought about writing a PR to improve invitation process to group
chatting on Wednesday about it \o/
hope to get someone active
bug from bruno
display of profile, see development place
post-bristol admin/receipts/money/etc…
agree on process what we do
which receipts do we accept?
curious about the total amount
money from bristol uni, how to account
do we need a spreadsheet or similar?
round
Bruno:
which receipts? dunno, leave it to your discretion, maybe hard to draw specific line, not very big amounts though, so fine
still tricky process, thought opencollective would help more, back to receiving money in personal accounts, maybe worth doing an evaluation of using opencollective and see how much it’s really facilitated our processes, or consider something else
spreadsheet/accounting thing could be useful if we didn’t have opencollective
maybe the outstanding things is what is prompting us to think more
haven’t been so much involved though
Nathalie:
don’t know where to draw the line, maybe just see it all as karrot money, also had the sense of more private vacation in the end, but maybe it’s ok, but also a bit mixed as we get money from karrot
would be fine to put everything into karrot
thought we could do our own little bit of accounting, factoring in the money from Bristol, seeing if that money covers it, or need to claim more, or donate something back
have to show bank details to social office, need to think about how to do bureaucracy
claiming with opencollective means handing in all the receipts, would be nice to avoid
Butze:
technically should have written an invoice, have a way of doing the bureaucracy/business part
one-off earning things in Germany don’t imply tax
don’t like accounting at all
event was a celebration, and very important in the whole process, and even if it felt like a holiday trip, see it as a celebratory task, no problems to see this as classic karrot expenses, even including the beer with nick and vasilis
will do own accounting and see what is left, estimate 100EUR left to give to fund
Nick:
include everything from the Bristol/ Bath trip in expenses
each do our own accounting to compare that to the 400 GBP
pay/ claim money to/ from karrot collective
comment about opencollective: don’t confuse the platform with the fiscal host
last 2 times we couldn’t really use the setup
accounting free model in a group with high trust e.g. have one shared bank account all together
Proposal:
include everything from the Bristol/ Bath trip in expenses
each do our own accounting to compare that to the 400 GBP
pay/ claim money to/ from karrot collective
consent!
design sessions updates. What’s next?
need to plan/co-ordinate session/process on sanctions, should set a date
would like to create a prototype
another meeting, to decide, then prototype after
also would like to see how the process on roles is, as they intersect a lot
roles:
roles is where it was 2-3 weeks ago
thinking of doing a glossary of terms (participant types, etc…) getting clear
thinking of where to attach roles to, groupwise, per place, etc.
have enough information/input for now, and need to review and come up with some solutions and very basic prototype, and present it
maybe wait on sanctions for more clarity on roles?
on development part, not like nick is twiddling thumbs waiting for something to do
a lot of backlog on development tasks, how to get into more productivity
regular slot on doing development, more focused than the coworking we have, pick another slot
is there help Nick can get? prioritise tasks on the board for example
, happy to hear from people if current flow of holding payments works
” - from Daniel @ Foodsharing Luxembourg
