comes from a foundation for human technologies in krakow
had some trouble signing up to the forum
info on self-host at the docs
bruno will reply
nice suite of tools he mentioned
nathalie met them in SoFa community of practise, had an email chat
maybe they’re not clear already if they were aware nathalie is also in karrot
could open the idea for having a call
intersection of design processes (roles and sanctions)
on first sanctions call, we had karolina, joachim, and karrot team peeps
became clear that it’s hard to perform the role of conflict mediation
and working out who will be deciding on the sanctions
so relates to roles a lot, circles, groups, etc…
bruno working on map as the next step
two ways going forward
integrate with the roles
or very minimal version (e.g. whoever has editing permissions can apply the sanctions)
could discuss this evening if there is space…
comments
we also have membership voting process, not just editor roles doing things
see the connection, but not a fan of merging, as it complicates things, hard to deal with
roles would need to be more developed to plug in the sanctions, and not clear sense of what will come out of the roles
keep updating each other with how things are going, but trying to keep them independent for now, and merge coming later
thinking about what happens in the groups, features get very related
takeaway from sanctions is the key difficulty of getting people into ther role of mediators
selection process in FSW
what if it does not work out?
more important is how it can represent what the group does
less important having the very detailed technical features
we do have the problem of who gets to configure things in the group? who has authority to act?
history feature helped with that
see the design process as simplifying the complexity
having the editor do the sanction is a default, then later we can see how a different role can be created
in sanction design process, brought up a clear use case for a different role, or for sanctions work fallback on default of editor role
use case of how to groups choose the people who can make decisions
capturing the idea that we might want to review what a person sees when they get editor access, maybe can link that to more information, and the agreements, etc. at the moment you get an email and a notification, but could make people more aware of what you can do → trying to understand what would be the benefit of splitting up editor rights, trying to align what people do with things they have a mandate to do, including the roles
useful to have updates/recap during these sessions since not everyone is present in all of them
Next:
check opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
reply to Zbigniew [Nick]
find the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
communicate with LUX group about deleting one karrot group and take action based on mandate [Nick]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
citizen engagement that came out of Spanish social movements ‘indignados’, for participatory budgeting, referendum, voting, participatory kind of stuff
might be worth getting some inspiration
karrot sessions during UK time
matt joined last co-working
Vas:
more networking/“lobbying” activity
it’s worth having a session between us before the events
first time we have proper collaboration with uni. what do we want of this?
reverse the consent form in the relationship between uni and [object of study] Karrot
happy to have roles design session
Nick:
place bristol goes Karrot,
Matt shared lots of thoughts, connecting with other initiatives
1-5-10 thing last year, nice opportunity to bring some of that in
curious spaces and speculative fiction, do some excersise about that, look/remember/explore big motivations behind working with Karrot
other things using Karrot as a base, use Karrot as a foundation, which now includes working with us quite a lot, ‘advertise’/outreach opportunity
would like it if enough money is running into Karrot, so K becomes a main thing, what would that look like?
do more planning/ scheduling Wednesday early evening when everyone arrives
Matt will provide frame for Thursday/ Friday days
could Matt hook us up with some nice local initiatives and doing some field visits in Bristol?
forum/wiki idea
search on Karrot wall
would search be possible?
have same credentials to log in with Karrot and a forum/wiki
Bruno: case is not clear enough, so maybe ask more, can relate to my own group where we use discourse forum where we use pads and stuff, wiki might not be nessecary for our case, investigate further
Nick: Sth that comes up all the time, Karrot is not suf to put all things on what our forum offers, seems that its another design process to understand what we are talking here, information storage and retrieval, acknowledge that we might not have capacity atm, single sign-on approach, looked into that before, i feel that is less designy process but more technical, ‘what is ur approach?’ might be asking to share/discuss our approach
search suggestion, use a place to store and retrieve/search information, search feels that is missing on Karrot but now comes up, no searchability atm
searching is complicated, language specific requirements that makes things more complicated, esp when things can be multilanguage, makes it more tricky (stemming stuff)
Vas: makes sense, as building an archive. thinking about data portability and how to export it, in case something bad happens. we lack info on what they want to search
Nathalie: ask for more examples/cases, what sort of info should be retrievable?, do not get what it is envisioned here, knowlegde sharing, accessibility question? who is editing? could just be a link to tools that we find useful, if u are looking for this or that…this is what we use
Next meeting:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
find the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
co-working on Wdsday 23/Oct
enact the lux group cleanup [Nick]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
check karrot goes bristol [Vas]
reach out to Karolina and ask for more details/examples [Bruno]
Date: 2024-11-12 on Karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno, Butze
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance
duration: up to the hour (11 CET), then see
information? any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
vasilis and co-ordinator of local siegen fablab have met and how they can co-ordinate/co-operate
proposal, rural makerspaces, connecting two maker spaces, comparisons, sharing knowledge/experiences
also testing how karrot could work in makerspaces
how to connect food scene and maker scene, community fridge (maybe with sensors, etc), karrot
anton, foodsharing dev, joined research team, talked about coming to a karrot call, and is interested, maybe joining next week
next meetings:
co-working: bruno, nick, maybe others later
weekly: nick, nathalie, butze, maybe bruno
groups cafe 18:00 CET tuesday: dave
pick facilitator for next weekly meeting: nick
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
find the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
co-working on Wdsday 23/Oct
enact the lux group cleanup [Nick]
slipped my task list
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
not yet
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
not yet
check karrot goes bristol [Vas]
reach out to Karolina and ask for more details/examples [Bruno]
regarding wiki/forum idea
email sent, maybe check for a reply
4. Discussion Points
updates
Marcus (gbg) showed interest in contributing
person that came to community kitchen project
already thought about writing a PR to improve invitation process to group
chatting on Wednesday about it \o/
hope to get someone active
bug from bruno
display of profile, see development place
post-bristol admin/receipts/money/etc…
agree on process what we do
which receipts do we accept?
curious about the total amount
money from bristol uni, how to account
do we need a spreadsheet or similar?
round
Bruno:
which receipts? dunno, leave it to your discretion, maybe hard to draw specific line, not very big amounts though, so fine
still tricky process, thought opencollective would help more, back to receiving money in personal accounts, maybe worth doing an evaluation of using opencollective and see how much it’s really facilitated our processes, or consider something else
spreadsheet/accounting thing could be useful if we didn’t have opencollective
maybe the outstanding things is what is prompting us to think more
haven’t been so much involved though
Nathalie:
don’t know where to draw the line, maybe just see it all as karrot money, also had the sense of more private vacation in the end, but maybe it’s ok, but also a bit mixed as we get money from karrot
would be fine to put everything into karrot
thought we could do our own little bit of accounting, factoring in the money from Bristol, seeing if that money covers it, or need to claim more, or donate something back
have to show bank details to social office, need to think about how to do bureaucracy
claiming with opencollective means handing in all the receipts, would be nice to avoid
Butze:
technically should have written an invoice, have a way of doing the bureaucracy/business part
one-off earning things in Germany don’t imply tax
don’t like accounting at all
event was a celebration, and very important in the whole process, and even if it felt like a holiday trip, see it as a celebratory task, no problems to see this as classic karrot expenses, even including the beer with nick and vasilis
will do own accounting and see what is left, estimate 100EUR left to give to fund
Nick:
include everything from the Bristol/ Bath trip in expenses
each do our own accounting to compare that to the 400 GBP
pay/ claim money to/ from karrot collective
comment about opencollective: don’t confuse the platform with the fiscal host
last 2 times we couldn’t really use the setup
accounting free model in a group with high trust e.g. have one shared bank account all together
Proposal:
include everything from the Bristol/ Bath trip in expenses
each do our own accounting to compare that to the 400 GBP
pay/ claim money to/ from karrot collective
consent!
design sessions updates. What’s next?
need to plan/co-ordinate session/process on sanctions, should set a date
would like to create a prototype
another meeting, to decide, then prototype after
also would like to see how the process on roles is, as they intersect a lot
roles:
roles is where it was 2-3 weeks ago
thinking of doing a glossary of terms (participant types, etc…) getting clear
thinking of where to attach roles to, groupwise, per place, etc.
have enough information/input for now, and need to review and come up with some solutions and very basic prototype, and present it
maybe wait on sanctions for more clarity on roles?
on development part, not like nick is twiddling thumbs waiting for something to do
a lot of backlog on development tasks, how to get into more productivity
regular slot on doing development, more focused than the coworking we have, pick another slot
is there help Nick can get? prioritise tasks on the board for example
not sure what I want, bringing it to our attention
prompt to engage with CSS idea
wasn’t explicit topic in Bristol, but mentioned at the end, vasilis not wanting to lead on it
nathalie had committed to follow-up, do people expect something?
we did consent to this proposal in siegen:
“We explore how to meet the needs of the Karrot project through the concept of Community Supported Software. This includes both the implementation within Karrot and the wider model.”
maybe schedule another design process for it? do we follow up with official process
Nick
would like to follow up on the idea, it’s necessary and promising
access to Vas’ paper?
seems to be a wider topic for other projects too
bring it to something that we can enact in karrot, rather than working on abstract stuff
interest in implementation
design process is quite good
who leads on that? coordination design process, tricky with other processes in place
invitation to do it
Nathalie:
good to hear the design process seems useful
question does seem down to “who’s leading it”
not completely not interested myself, but would rather finish current processes, don’t want to open a third thing
either someone has motivation/time for it now, or it waits for longer
we had a nice session on it, and the proposal is nice, and nicely documented
nick asked about CSS paper / chapter in thesis from vasilis, trying to understand the access around this, is it public?
spam emails in inbox [Nathalie]
something on discourse level? does it make sense to mute?
can we mute the email addresses/accounts that sent spam?
some semi-manual work to prevent the same ones coming in
silencing the user can work, doesn’t hurt to do it
T was asking about how users become inactive, thinks there are inactive users still members, have to see how it work so I can answer back
Application chat FS Warsaw, little chat about on dif queries to do, would be nice to find a way to have access to the data he d want to work on
Updates from Siegen and Vas/Butze [Vas]
call between Butze, Vas and makerspace person in Siegen
Vas working with Uni Siegen for 3 months was talked about
explore how karrot can fit in there, case study for karrot to become makerspace friendly
write funding application
not concrete at this point
Vas will share updates
comments around ‘free the karrot’ and having different templates for different groups
another weekly focused working session? [Nick]
actually getting the work done. alone in the dev. learners: Nat and Jay.
possible solutions: focused co-working session
existing co-working sesh tends to be shortish, thinking of afternoon/evenings as a possible approach
sounds understandable, can see how body doubling could work, reluctant to have evening things, but could try it out [Nathalie]
echo what Nathalie said, body doubling also works for me, big tasks in the future for karrot, mostly writing, would like to have a longer coworking session, afternoon/ evening would work, not do week-ends [Vas]
work on other stuff would be ok too, expand topic to have someone to chat about tech. Get to know other projects/ across projects, being realistic what Karrot is or can be, maintenance mode or expanding the scope [Nick]
Next step
Vas and Nick will pick a time and inform Nathalie/ team
Thursday afternoon? → activity created!
approve pending expenses on opencollective [nathalie]
happy to keep up conversation for future conversation, more money, more days, group on the ground
Vas can reach out
Nathalie took action item
CSS and Nick/Vas paper? [Vas]
write a two-pager, pop-science like
steward community tech network
sharing paper and thesis?
chapter in thesis is best
is it public? hooow?
Vas: don’t feelk like sharing paper, thesis chapter still not public, but fine with sharing, but still pretty long. Making something short and concrete
people who are deep in the topic might want to dive deep, the longer might be fine
open-source culture to share in-progress work
2-pager also good idea
Vas can share thesis and circulate with disclaimer
share 1:1 at this point
Next:
do we want to have a team practise of performance reviews? [nathalie]
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
find and work the pad with edits for agreement related to data interventions [vas]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
enact the lux group cleanup [Nick]
create RFPs for completed nlnet work [Nick, and/or others]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
Date: 2024-12-03 on Karrot
Facilitator: Vas
Minutes: all
Participants: Vas, Bruno, Nathalie, Nick and the boat
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance
duration: 11:30 CET
information? any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
Call - Nathalie and Anton (FS/Siegen) about foodsharing/ foodsharing towns
Bruno: Sent in application for FSSweden
next meetings:
co-working: Vas, Nathalie, Bruno, Nick
focused co-working Thursday afternoon/ish: Vas, Nathalie, Bruno might try and join, Nick
weekly:
pick facilitator for next weekly meeting: memememme → Nick
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
forum post on Bristol days [vas]
enact the lux group cleanup [Nick]
done - 2nd group deactivated
create RFPs for completed nlnet work [Nick, and/or others]
done (2RFPs): 4.000 EUR
pending approval
2pager CSS thingy [vas]
started with mind map and chat with Matt
contact Matt [vas]
done
share thesis with Nathalie and Nick plus Bruno [vas]
4. Discussion Points
focused co-working Thursday afternoon/ish: Vas, Nathalie: change time? a bit earlier? [all]
last experimental coworking felt very nice
start at 16:00 CET? request from Nathalie
sounds good to all
Bruno can join every other week
concept is to have something more focused, longer in duration
wednesday is more about small task (and communication)
get into programming for Nick
let’s do a series → done, see Karrot group
updates
polls
Nick is doing a screenshare
‘Create a poll’ with Name, Description and Options - with emojies
nice progress
Q: Is there a ‘poll’ entry in the menu left
not part of mock-up
it’s on the wall, like a message
poll is attached to message
nothing planned to put into the menu in the left
rethink the menu might be nice
could be yet another menu section
small micro-improvements are also welcome
nice to see it!
Bruno wants to use it in April
anonymity is part of it
feedback use of Karrot by “Folkkök” (people’s kitchen) [Bruno]
been working nice
people using activities and participant types
people in kitchen, hosts, clean-up
roles, maybe use the new feature
do we need a chef for example
some are using the feedback
making a shopping list, used the wall for this, but can’t update later, used a place instead
thought about task management/kanban board
agreements: bring feedback to future meeting, connect to a better flow, some things are about agreements
general sense that is has been good using karrot, not much confusion
Questions/ comments
nice, useful feedback
likes idea of lists, tasks, could be generic but use templates
Introduction of karrot, was it difficult?
some people have used karrot before (5), some not (8)
13 members in total
sign-up flow is an issue (register, go back, find group, apply)
‘we organise on this platform which is karrot’
no resistance to use karrot, it’s a new project, make a community out of it
Bruno and 1-2 others re-initiated the project, Bruno suggested to use Karrot, that’s it
it’s being accepted
Updates with Matt (about CSS) [vas]
Vas send an email last week
Have another bristol days gathering where we, Karrot ppl and possible other ppl involved in Community Tech come together in a series of focus groups to discuss/explore CSS and/or other Community Tech org models.
Develop a more long term collab which can include a) as described above, plus piloting CSS in the context of Karrot and/or other community tech projects.
explore the possibility of short-term collaboration with karrot and CenSoF
another workshop to work on CSS
or maybe long-term thing (see above)
Matt replied he’d be happy to make those possibe and will get back to Vas
Reactions
sounds good
Geek for social change https://gfsc.studio/, plug them in, have a call with them?
very nice call, does it have enough alignment for work?
seems very aligned in the call
network of growing projects, lean into self-organised work instead of having one coordinator who is facilitating
first surplus sharing, then end up do growing and distribution
positive reaction to karrot, nice to see food theme on the platform
many topic resonated
run their own instance?
using groups or places for the different projects
interrelated groups, how could this work, sharing an activity with another group?
could be the start of a nice collaboration, will meet in December
also connect them with Matt
reactions
sounds nice
likes the idea of connecting local projects
at which stage is this project? conceptual or has it been going on for a while? hard to understand without being there. Where are the real challenges and oppertunities?
they should try using karrot!
you have a lot of freedom when you are at the start of a project
hard to imagine any group where there is no person/group who is doing more coordination, ‘pure self-organisation’ will most likely not be achieved
curious the hear more about it in the future!
sounds like a fruitful connection
different to navigate different whatsapp channels, also like the idea to not have it on their personal communication
get a clearer understanding of the situation and bring some of the growing projects in, show vulnerability in, karrot is not the magic tool, build a network
good tips for someone to steward a network
Next:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
do we want to have a team practise of performance reviews? [nathalie]
5. Actions and Outcomes
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas]
ask Babette about payments between collectives [Nathalie]
chat to Essen für Alle about switching to opencollective [Nathalie]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
forum post on Bristol days [vas]
share thesis with Nathalie and Nick plus Bruno [vas]
collect feedback from Folkkök in feedback log [Bruno]
had a meeting, decided to put checklist on how to do event in agreements
also uploaded vision
shopping list also there now, not so fitting but best place to put it (can edit document)
you need karrots to add/edit agreements!
feature didn’t need to be called agreements, could be called ‘documents’
comment
initially thought about process for agreements
could still be a democratic process around documents
proper collaborative editor
documents and some are tagged as agreements
substitute for nextcloud? written documents a very common usecase
polls update
screen share from Nick
added description, multi-option, vote anonymous, otherwise you see who voted what
see results in advance
no finishing time on votes, it’s open and that’s that
behind feature flag
no polls in thread, only in main wall, not in messages either
polls page in menu, only shows polls (not much context), you can vote there
have poll page so you can link it
lots of work to do still
comments
very nice!
nice how Nick thinks about the details
yaaay!
do we want to have a team practise of performance reviews? [nathalie]
intro:
first got in contact with it at Kanthaus, then performance review at SoFa, in the context of a role a person is doing
useful to have this conversation about your contribution
how could this look like in a self-organized space?
did one a year ago, in a sociocratic style
could be nice to look at it again and follow up on this
maybe think of it as a practice, to do this as a team
do we want to do it for more people, have an agreement, how would this look like?
round
bruno:
can see how it can be useful, willing to explore
other side has instinctive reaction against, reviewing? me? aaaaaah, don’t like
fear of judgement, pressure
won’t be only led by those feelings though
saw how it worked for nathalie, process and outcome seemed nice
nice thing was stating motivations, looking at situation, trying to find a way to make the contribution more meaningful
positive, with unconscious reactions
Nick:
would like them as a policy, could be very positive
give context and sense of what people are doing
critique terminology - ‘performance’ (don’t do that here) and ‘review’ (rather what’s alive for the person)
opportunity to mitigate that judgement sense
Nathalie:
generally like it, would like to have an agreement
thinking about deadline, or specific time to do it
make sure it’s meaningful for the group and the person at the time
agreement can be a little push to do it
request and demand the space for it
exploring this in SoFa whether it’s a performance review or not, maybe a meaningful check-in
happy to bring her experience from SoFA
Vas:
no prior experience
find the idea challenging but positive
also thing with language, being told off
happy to try out and further discuss it
connection with accountability
happy to further discuss
Next Steps
Bruno
could try it out
not sure starting an agreement, rather trying it out first
do each of us at a specific time
not push it forwards forever, but not taking too much of our regular meeting time either
find good balance with our time to do other stuff
after that see if we want to incorporate this as a regular practise
Nick
motivated to have it and support it’s creation
Nathalie might have some leads
opt-in thing that people can request it, more like a invitation
how to make people not feel judged
support and nurturing
supporting a plant and asking what it needs in the context
Vas
trust Nathalie for designing this process and put in place some ideas
‘challenge accepted’
seeks for communication in life
researchers hat: that’s very interesting, great! peer to peer self-organised review
check with friend whether they have ideas/experience around it
how do we try it out? who’s requesting? open questions still
Nathalie
winter is a nice time of the year, introspective
inspired by cycles and seasons
likes the idea of going into agreement at some point
balance between the person and the collective
group could support to organize
grateful that people speak to the feelings of resistance, appreciating the process of making something that is meaningful to us
happy to think about a framing
likes the idea of doing it first, but nothing clear to propose now
next step can be a guidance document, collaborate with someone on it and find someone to do it
end of the year?
proposal: nathalie formulate a guidance document in collaboration with others as desired, find someone to try it out with in January
consent!
framing/story for bountiful bristol [Nick]
meeting them on the 16th Mon
would like to come with a framing, not just loose chatting
a model or a practice, like a design process to interact with the group
can be useful for the future: making sense of what they are doing, what Karrot is, and how the relationship goes forward
pen and paper to do the design process
thinking of Karrot not as a product itself, but a tool for critical reflection on technology
Karrot beyond a set of features, also making explicit our limitations and self-organization
feedback
a bit abstract
e.g. building a temporary “mini organisation” with FOSC in SoFA
how to ground from the abstract?
working with outcomes? how to proceed, even if more talking
based on needs/vision of the project
hard to define a process now
idea is nice, to have exploratory space, rather than just offering a product, but we are offering a resource, not shy away from offering the resource (shy in “selling”)
suggestions on how to organise with the help of technology, whether it’s karrot or karrot and something else
karrot as a community, surface our knowledge and wisdom
can’t seperate these two topics, propose short term
thinking of going up but not feeling like getting money from Karrot atm
propose to go up to 300 but not urgent at the current minute
Vas: 230 EUR
didn’t get any money from opencollective yet
stable income from karrot, but has other sources
needs to think about taxes
stay with 230 EUR, not in a rush to get money from karrot
Nick: 500 EUR
make the money rationalisation, triggers to do it, sth in co-working to do. requires getting the back payments
I would keep to the same
there is a component of contribution level
my only income as well
side hustles that we might do, some side work, way to do it together would be interesting
explore more sources of funding or progress our community funding project
agree with Nat to get the money paid to ppl, pay out as much as we can so we know where we are
Bruno: 200 EUR
Back payments 1800 EUR to Bruno (April-December)
now i can do invoices, taxation stuff, got an emal from OCollective, if that feels ok for everybody else
I dont need to do the whole money, but would be nice,
then can do it regularly
happy to continue with the same amount
Jay & Butze: 0 EUR
Summary
agree to money amounts
do rationalisations, includes back payments
think about funding sources
Bruno: make it a consent point and then disucss/consent or not
Nick: consent to the amounts and wonder if Nat would be up for doing some money admin in the co-working, comment for UK freelance 12K is the tax free limit
Vas: consent to the amounts and would be happy to participate in the co-working of money. Discuss how to proceed with the details, back payments etc.
Nat: happy to go up to 300, happy to collaborate with money, I think its also on the individuals to do that
updates
meeting with bountiful bristol
Nick met with the coordinator, Matt, a woman from a food bank and a IT person
one topic that became clear is the dynamic of organizing with Whatsapp
everyone just joins Whatsapp, but it is not sufficient for long-term organizing, there are limitations
public signup for activities would fit that need
person in the food bank has a lot of experience in trying to onboard people in online tools and was very positive to the public signup
bb is quite enthusiastic to continue and try Karrot
Matt interested in doing research case study, get some funding to pay a bit for people’s time
general organization challenges that and not neessarily related to tools
what is enhanced or disenhanced by these tools? Whatsapp is good for the number, but not so for committed participation
from Matt’s experience, no way you could organize a volunteer using a lot of whatsapp groups
talked with a friend about a trauma-informed approach, some similarities we’ve seen
clear limitations with what can be done with a tool
maybe this should’ve been a discussion topic
christmas bonus update
screencast
question about markdown/rich text
rich text seems easier
maybe no need to have a consistency (rich text on collaborative pad and markdown on other messages)
some nice tooling and library that could be used out of the box
still a lot of questions left but enough to continue
makes sense, takes all knowledge from group organizing etc. and puts it together
nice feature to have in Karrot
map was hard to think about in advacnce
nice to show it automatically but also moving manually
assignment of roles seem manageable
minimal version is self-assign
approval as a confirmation can be enough to take it far without needing to implement other fiddly things
a little confusion between editor as role in Karrot and not being a role-role
group-level roles: how to represent that
how would this intersect with trust?
could trust be a way to get the role?
Nlnet task: permissions. Editor as a permission rather than a role
more untangling of concepts: trust, permission and role
doing same walkthrough with people in groups, maybe Daniel and Karolina, Dave…
Bruno
likes the flow, showing and creating roles
good starting point on the permissions
lot of untangling and exploring the definitions e.g. permissions, trust, roles
figure it all out at once?
rethink editor/ trust mechanism, not working for groups how its intendet
understanding why it should be tied to places, felt more like a group-wide thing
there are group-wide roles, could also be filled through places
how to apply it in my own group
store manager etc. fits to places (role description in agreements)
another role is board, this is group-wide, but there is a place called ‘board’
welcome-team
map is nice-to-have but not must-have
roles overview tied to members page, not own entry
idea of badges, like on discourse, nice to have
could be ‘members and roles’
generally likes it
Nathalie:
appreciate positive reactions and critical reflections
have comments in penpot, could be a place for further comment?
difficult feature to work on
felt design process did work to hold it
see how it’s connected to some core functions, and have fear of complexity as it gets more concrete
we have had these uncertainties and questions before (e.g. is editor a role), what is the space to resolve these though? trust feature, and trust from the workshop with matt
would be happy to show this to people in groups, to see how people might apply it to their group, very valuable!
time of getting feedback now
wonder about process, how big of a change do we want to introduce? how big are the iterations, or introduce something easier
Nick:
group/ place: store manager present accros many places, role applied to many places, and then somebody getting that role
glossary is really helpful,
‘role in a place’ to have it’s own name
can there be roles without places? a way for people to use places
fear of complexity: happy to share that, have that already in my work, enjoyed design process, brings work out to wider group, only gets it out when really getting specifc, surface complexities and questions, strategies to cut through complexity
lot of things could be resolved easily
what can the editor be? a permission
feedback would make a lot of sense, bring it to the specific cases, how can the model fit
Nathalie:
feel like pushing this idea as role-within-place, and different relationship with trust (e.g. not really seeing trust-for-role)
trouble seeing editor as a role, you get it, but don’t actually do anything, seems clear editor is not a role
good time to check in with the state of it and it’s direction
thinking about store manager role, had this “show on map” thing as might want to only show group-level roles, and not common ones
in sociocracy lots of common roles
another tool has a “duplicate” role feature, but doesn’t have a home/template for the role, you copy it from one to the other, and mark it as duplicate, then editing one edits both, but no super folder, “role template”, for now would copy it
dialog:
role template (abstract), role (template applied to place), role “membership” (specific member in a role)
“mirrored role”
“components” in penpot
editor as role?
see it as permission
do-occracy heritance, everyone should get editor permissions
thinking around code
permissions as trust as more related than roles
in sofa, get permissions you need in order to do your work (within a role)
thinking more of karrot as playground, and fewer processes within the software as they tie you down, hesistant to have too many processes in the software
add ‘group admin role’
how to attach permissions and roles
fine-grained permissions
relationship with trust system
how to shift into ‘karrot with a new feature’
create editor role
use trust mechanism
keep behaviour
implement old behaviour in new feature
everyone has editor permissions at the beginning until somethings happens or group has editor role from the beginning
editor as built-in role
permission
technical level, let editor have it all
higher level, surface permissions as feature
which fine-grained permissions are there?
look around
check code where it checks for editor
Next:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
forum post on Bristol days - ongoing [vas]
start working on guidance document for ‘performance reviews’ [Nathalie, Vas]
money admin work in coworking [Nathalie, Nick, Vas, Bruno]
