next week have a more personal/extended checkin (all)
12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
write a forum post about money (Nick)
scheduling a breaking the silo meeting (Bruno, and others)
next week have a more personal/extended checkin (all)
12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
write a forum post about money (Nick)
scheduling a breaking the silo meeting (Bruno, and others)
‘protocol’ for welcoming ppl esp the importance of check in and check out
onboarding process how we inform ppl about that?
full-bodied facilitation can bring their own methodology
very extended check in today
share a thing u d like too and follow up questions possibly…
NLnet planning
“if your work isn’t completed just yet, tell us how much of the project you will be able to finish; and if applicable, how much budget you would like to return for others to benefit from”
need to do some planning! what needs to be done?
what feels good in our lives, interests and the project
ppl from the bigger community?
precise description of tasks, clear task for this or that
more people to engage in programming?
michael, lars, freiburg group?
a kind of Kanban board to see the tasks and who’s doing it could be useful
on the money topic
what’s the solidarity about in the occasional contributor’s solidarity rate?
solidarity towards the person contributing but also the project as a whole , Karrot cannot pay market rates
Karrot cannot formalize things as an employer
ackowledgement that we cannot really provide for people’s needs and that people who contribute can do it because of their privileges
better to change hourly rates to negotiated wage
might be problematic to ask people how they value their time/work
maybe assign a value to a task?
karrot days?
next time…
4. Actions/Outcomes
upload finalized MoU to forum, removing first page with addresses (nick)
engage with the topic on the forum (all)
continue the money talk (all)
5. Closing Ceremony
pick facilitator for next week
checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-04-05 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
(last week me and Bruno had an informal call, but didn’t take notes)
Date: 2022-04-12 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Vas, Bruno
1. Check in and Updates
agree duration 1h30
checkin
Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
upload finalized MoU to forum, removing first page with addresses (nick)
engage with the topic on the forum (all)
continue the money talk (all)
3. Discussion points
[Nathalie] Hey… I’m really sorry, but I don’t feel well today and can’t do the meeting. I switched back the pad, to not let you too confused. I think the topics can still stay. I know it’s quite unfortunate timing… I’d still be motivated to do the preparing and facilitation next week. See you soon!
reply to Nlnet
Nlnet is waiting for a reply to their last mail
idea: write about status quo
who’s doing it?
we already started working on milestones
not sure right now which we’ll manage within the time
send a holding reply for now
maybe in a month we can be in a better position?
nlnet planning
what feels good in our lives, interests and the project
share about 1) What I’m interested in 2) Where I could help, but might be too much overall and less enthusiastic 3) What I’m not interested in/ can’t to
sense building to create a document (policy) from this discussion
clarify our open questions (what needs to be answered in this document)
which rate/agreement/policy for middle tier “occasional contributor”
do we suggest a rate? (per hour? monthly? per task?) negotiation? or mix of both?
Nick: more into the negotiation direction, including a context explaining how we see this topic
Bruno: focus on the negotiation (not a nice word! making a tension like employer/employee), focus on the context and values we try with money, but could suggest reference rates, to avoid situation where somebody feels uncomfortable to say a number (“aarhrhrah is it too much/little”), base value to start discussion with
Nathalie: seems unlikely a complete outsider would just sign an hourly rate contract and do a task without communicating with us (distant model for us, and the spirit/values), should have negotiation bit (in a nice setting), maybe specify a range,
could the “occasional contributor” level be higher than the basic income level?
where do we put the “document” when it’s done?
Nick: maybe in a “policy” forum category?
Bruno: agrees with Nick, hopefully can use agreements feature in karrot when it’s ready
how do we decide on the agreement for each contibutor?
Nathalie: should be a money circle for this, where the agreements are made
if it’s a small circle of only a couple of people, that get the money, is it right if they decide? should there be approval from the main meeting? too much overhead?
could work to be linked to normal meeting, but should have clear cut separation?
Nick: a circle could work if enough ppl want to do it, otherwise might be confusing/ hard to schedule meetings
the circle could be kind of evaluation meeting, to see if Karrot and the person fit well, so it’d be more than about just the money
Bruno: best if it’s in a seperate meeting, but also what Nick said is true, easier to ask people to just come to weekly meeting, but nicer to have a more focused session to talk about money, also might work a bit as an onboarding process, talking about karrot and the person
what is not in the document (out of scope)?
Nick: thinking, pondering… it will probably emerge more clearly in the process of writing. Maybe some of the legal and practical stuff
Bruno: practicalities out of scope, document should be about how we think about the money topic and paying people to contribute to karrot, and how to come to an agreement, how people get paid, who’s paying, which account, where the money comes from, could be left out of this one
Nathalie: not a strong opinion, pratical bits should maybe be written somewhere, but this one could be more general, but not everything is for being public, maybe that can be written elsewhere
is there an upper limit? (per month?)
Nick: no, seems a bit arbitary to me, and reference rates might be sufficient
Bruno: agree, reference rate range, or maybe 1 figure, negotiation will give a feeling… don’t need to formalise that now
Nathalie: would like an orientation range, and would find it wierd if the 2nd level (occasional contributor) would be higher than the 1st level (basic income thing)
should there be a separate money circle?
… we talked about this in “how do we decide on the agreement for each contibutor?”
moving to decision part?
we have the basis for the agreement already
topic has been dragging on a little
maybe we can move to decision by next week?
would be nice to get going with being able to make payments
not so much urgency from me (Nick)
spirit of getting going, and doing continuing evaluation
meta question on faciliation process
what if a technical point comes up during the meeting?
or about adding extra agenda points durin the meeting?
adding decisions part way through?
guideline: as long as we consent, it’s fine
nice to stay within topic, whilst leaving space for questions a they arrive
would add some values (how we relate to the money issue) to the text. Can add it later…
this could work as a proposal and likes the open questions part (especially regarding the question about privileges)
likes the idea of bringing up the question of privileges and equity and proportionate rate. Wonders how to value contribution per hour. Would also add something about how we see money on Karrot.
likes the points above: values context. would make some minor word changes and maybe a short working session would be enough. For now it’s good enough and we see how that feels. Money topic is infinite, let’s keep the discusion ongoing. Let’s be aware if this policy could be abused
we’ll do a quick session to work on the fine details and discuss where to post it
reaction to changes (a first paragraph about how we see money, an inclusion of Karrot users to the money circle, and some language corrections)
liked the changes
maybe shorten the first paragraph or make it into 2. Maybe introduce with something more positive
liked the changes, could rewrite the first paragraph but main ideas are there already
switch the order of the paragraphs. Including any user of Karrot might not be ok. Is it the right space?
consent round
do we consider it good enough to try?
two objection about one sentence “so they don’t need to spend their time selling their labour”
we rephrased it and consent
one objection about the rate. Comments:
there needs to be a number… relates to a minimum wage
what’s the point of giving a per hour if we do not track the time? We could keep it like this and see how it will or will not work
consents, but flexible with having it or not
there might be edge cases regarding a contributors productivity, but consent
objection withdrawn, but it would be nice to include an explanation on the rate at some point
consent given to the proposal!
next steps
discuss next week where to publicize it
money circle in two weeks
we ran out of time here, next topics postponed
15 min karrot days [E]
status quo, gathering ideas
15 min questionaire for groups [E]
…
10 min Nlnet responsiblities
next steps and open questions
priorities
5. Actions/Outcomes
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
checkout
Proposal: Money distribution in karrot
to be posted in a “policies” category in the forum
The karrot project receives money through funding and donations. We want to redistribute this money to people that already are or want to get involved.
We work within a culture of intrinsic motivation, so we aim for money not being the main motivator for contributing to Karrot. However, we recognize that people need to make a living and have different degrees of privileges and needs, so we would like to support them to spend less time doing work they don’t enjoy. Karrot’s support to contributors will happen within the project’s financial capacities.
All agreements are made together in a “money circle”. We discuss and decide an agreement for each contributor individually. Everyone who joins the weekly meetings, uses Karrot, and additionally everyone who wishes to contribute or to receive money is invited to the money circle.
The money circle needs to be announced beforehand. For practical reasons it usually takes place after the weekly meeting, which is shortened then.
The following serves as a guideline for decision making:
3 categories of contribution
committed contributor → receives money monthly on a “basic income” level
occasional contributor → flexible time and amount, reference is 15€/h
volunteer contributor → don’t wish to receive money for whatever reason
Questions that might be explored during discussions
“what we need” → needs based, food, housing, travel
“what we do” → time based, how much we put in in terms of hours or responsibility
“what we offer” → output based, how much value we are sharing
“what surrounds us” → country we live in, priviliges we hold, wealth we have access to
Date: 2022-05-03 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Vas, Nathalie
1. Opening
10 min Check in
motivational speech “Simplicity, patience, compassion. These three are your greatest treasures. Simple in actions and thoughts, you return to the source of being. Patient with both friends and enemies, you accord with the way things are. Compassionate toward yourself, you reconcile all beings in the world.”
(Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching)
next meeting: General 2022-05-10 12:00 CEST, Design Process 2022-05-03 20:00 CEST
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
5 min
fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (nathalie, vas)
Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
Nick hosted nice person from Poland who might get involved with self organised style tech stuff and with the Foodsharing Warszawa group, would be nice!
money agreement nearly ready, yay!
4. Discussion points
4 min nlnet Jos [R, E?]
Hello Nick,
Good to see that you have clear assignment of the tasks on your
Discourse instance. We’re looking forward to finished milestones.
It’s best that you work in they way you’re comfortable. We measure
progress primarily by submitted requests for payment. So when there are
non of those yet, we do wonder about the progress.
What is your expectation on the finishing of the milestones?
Best regards,
Jos
nick felt a bit overwhelmed opening it, and a bit of pressure, or uncertainity
nathalie
reasonable what they are saying
feels like some things in the list can be finished quite soon
e.g. roles thing, and a little writeup, and a celebration! would be motivational
not very far away now
aim to identify what can be done, and focus on that for the next email to them
vas
what do they mean about the finishing of milestones?
which ones we think we might not finish, and they can reallocate money to other projects
need to priorities which milestones we aim at finishing
when is deadline?
end of october? should check it out
talk about nlnet priorities next week
20 min Money distribution in karrot [D]
open questions
where to post it?
a post on the forum and in the karrot team karrot group
maybe a short post on karrot, then linked to forum post
need to announce it somehow? maybe on the general wall
and also write in the activity description that it’s a money call (or rather, has one on the end)
proposal: assign vasiliator for the money call next week, who can then work out where to post/announce stuff - check!
5 - 10 min karrot days [E]
status quo, gathering ideas
motivation to drive it a little forward, get feeling from the group
should push forward karrot days, make it happen!
one idea do it before July so we still have people not on vacation
looking at the nlnet milestones, maybe a couple of things we could work on, ones that are a bit more exploratory
e.g. have a breaking the silo workshop, come up with scenarios with what we’ve done so far, then mess around on a miro board
maybe a 2 day event, meeting, chatting, and some hands-on exploratory work together
karrot days got postponed, echo off that
how does it fit in personal life
great idea still
hands on stuff connected to the milestones, not addition to milestones
maybe some coding
monthly community cafe is a nice idea, cross over with karrot days
looking forward to the karrot days, a nice situation to join
seemed to hang in the air for some time, not much info about the postponment
would look forward to some fun and evening things
a more intense focused time 2-3 days with schedule (compared to scattered around a week)
already some ideas around for what it could do
so maybe task is to find a date that works for people
if motivation is high, then maybe it could work
before July also…
from discussions in groups (in our breaking the silo stuff), most of the information about karrot days hasn’t made it to the groups, but when chatting with the groups they’re up for it, chatting to other group, etc
so question is how to reach people, beyond just a forum post
interest of group to chat to other groups? e.g. about conflict resolution
spaces to talk about topics “how to…” onboard/ found a group
5 min questionaire for groups [R]
Vas is working on it, not done yet
optional: 10 min reflection in Nathalies faciliation [E]
next time
5. Actions/Outcomes
ask what is needed to fill in responsiblities doc [Nathalie, Vas?]
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
start working on a reply now, check later with Nick
what are we able to fulfill until end of october
Improve developer experience
Nick & Tilmann need to decide, seems to go forward, almost done?
time scope?
→ (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
Roles feature
first iteration is ready to implement, how does the coding go?
Put name down as responsible even if there are no coding skills? “Taking the lead”, making sure it will happen, is also good. More like a manager. Motivational aspect.
Nathalie will put here name there!
write-up and documentation still a bit open. Write a forum post. Make it accessible. Nathalie will feel responsible too
→ (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
Design and develop feature toward ‘breaking the silo’ among groups on Karrot and the wider public outside Karrot
Bruno proposes to finish “Conduct and publish writeup of design process” by July/ August
see how it can fit with karrot days to get some feedback
karrot days in June/July would be cool
→ we can deliver something until October!
Agreements feature
Nathalie and Bruno want to see this feature and are therefore motivated
Nathalie will put her name down and Bruno will be really supportive, working starts in 1-2 months (for “Writeup process and documentation for agreements feature”)
check with Nick about the implementation part (or other devs in a supportive position?)
→ (reply to Jos) holding on to it
Refining places and activities feature
Bruno could come up with first sketch at some point, start the process, work on design
Vas motivated to help, hopes for input from karrot days
lower priority for now?
could come up with minimal version later
check with technical stuff
places and activites seem to work fine in karrot now
task would need to start from the beginning
→ (reply to Jos) a bit unsure (we need to check it in x months? <–would this work?)
Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
Vas is the steward
“Document participatory processes (for other projects)” can be combined with phd maybe, a bit vague at this point
a blog post on the topics could be nice
an extra website maybe
Conduct and publish writeup into how Karrot is being used until June/ July with data from interviews, inside stories
Guide for participants on how to contribute
extended list of ways into karrot
e.g. fo students
how can you do it
co-working session at some point
it’s not a big issue, just needs to be done
→ (reply to Jos) 2 of 3 will be done for sure, the 3. one a bit more optional
Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
complicated topic
think about next iteration and test it
conduct design process even in fewer sessions than breaking the Silo
start the latest end june, make it topic for karrot days
start right after Breaking the Silo, maybe a bit overlapping
have it in august/september
is this too late for implementation?
→ (reply to Jos) there is motivation to work on it, implementation could be time-critical
Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot
→ (reply to Jos) Nick & Tilmann should say something about that point
optional: 10 min reflection in Nathalie’s faciliation [E]
another time
there will be the written feedback
move on to money circle!
start today but continue next time
how much do we want to write down in the minutes?
personal preference
check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
round reflection on categories and questions
which category you 'd place yourself in
Vas: volunteer contributor (but committed), income from uni, funded and doing research in karrot, no additional money from karrot, one wish would be to keep a small amount of money aside e.g. for a karrot meeting. Receives 1200£ as a stipend, some months 2 rents in athens and uk, not stuff member so not in a pension scheme, unemployed in greece meaning has to pay for health expenses, a loan of 10,000 euros to renovate a countryside house inherited by grandma, shares resources with partner that her job is going shit, most money spent on food, gardening and side-projects
Bruno: commited contributor, would be nice if karrot would help to cover expenses, expenses around food and rent, basic bills, travels, not a must, contribution flowing up and down depending on the week, focus on long-term contribution, feels very much commitment, reflection about privileges, living in a welfare state, family has been able to help and has the option to do climbing courses or do swedish courses
Nathalie: ocassional contributor, shared economy with 4 others → savings got lower over time, questions of how to achieve a sustainable financial situation, future changes require a new orientation, move out from kanthaus where rent and food are not a cost → health insurance as ongoing cost, get some money out of sociocracy possibly, be happy to get a little bit of money, need to find my karrot projects so this middle thing is quite fitting
what’s the current balance, how long would it last
how we organize ‘money contributions’
5. Actions/Outcomes
Vas will reorganize the karrot days pad (Vas)
Ask Nick if he wants to share some input? (Vas)
E-mail to Jos after chatting with Nick (Vas)
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Bruno!
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
1 b) c) and Optional: Nick started looked at this, seems achievable, good idea to talk to Tilmann, support each other
→ we are holding on to this
→ optional ones depend on nlnet also, putting those lower priority
→ get on with one of it now, others can be ongoing, nice independend tasks
Roles feature
Nathalie and Nick will have a chat on that topic
→ seems good from Nicks perspective
Design Breaking the silo
→ seems good from Nicks perspective
Agreements feature
implementation part? highest chance for outside devs as there already is the prototype
maybe break it down to smaller parts
new devs would still need Nicks help (what he offers)
→ holding on to it, check-in in a few weeks
Refining places and activities feature
come up with ideas for design part
→ agreement to what was said last time, evaluate in a few months
Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
a) in high priority
b) holding on, evaluate in a few months
depends on our flow of work, there is potential for a lot of productivity
Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
→ agreement to what was said last time
→ put b) as “maybe”
Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot
self contained tasks
feel good about those
→ we’re doing it!
in reply: have different categories for the topics
- high priority
- holding on, evaluate in a few months
be transparent in our communication, check-in with nlnet regular
other thoughts: what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer? → talk about it more in the next call
translation requests: korean (just now), and indonesian (october last year)
check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
round reflection on categories and questions
what’s the current balance, how long would it last
how we organize ‘money contributions’
current balance: 6276,38 €
Nick: commited contributor, short-term: savings going down, long-term: achieve indepented financial situtation, context of whole economy, using holistic concept of value, difficult in capitalist surroundings, aiming for local income too at some point
Reflections:
tension between spending karrot money too fast and supporting people long-term
critical about always seeking for money
finding the right balance
karrot is growing up a bit, plug more into the flow of our lived lives, keep coherent and consistend within that
money forces a certain way of operating
idea from last money calls: distribute money in a way, so it would last 3 years
with complete nlnet funding it would be around 730€/month total
maybe rather take 2 years as a reference
enough time to look for another source of money
include this guideline in money policy?
current bank balance for 2 years: 260€/month
current bank balance + nlnet funding (complete): 1095€/month
current bank balance + nlnet funding (1/2): 678€/month
long-term strategy for karrot: a discussion for the future!
a bit of talk about funding and/or crowdfunding, hybrid model, keeping things independent
how do we come to a proposal with numbers?
go with monthly reference
karrot itself wanting some money (collective expense)
reserve amount for future contributors?
shorten terms for money calls
have the next money call in 3 months, even before if there is the need (e.g. for Tilmann to join)
talk about it next time and come up with numbers!
agreed on each others level of contribution
5. Actions/Outcomes
Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
Bruno checks with Vas and they write the reply to Jos
Topic for next call: what are the condidtions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer?
update description on transifex [Bruno]
write reply to application in spanish [Bruno]
talk about numbers next time [all]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: leave it open for now
starting in the morning on first day is not really for working people
liked suggestions
how much can we do? that’s the core of the program
finding dates: we decide in the meeting here, or give 3-4 options most for the forum
dates: we define the 2-3 days, only some people visit the forum
sceptical about duration of the days, too long in general
likes “inspire, focus, reflect”
remains tricky how to communicate to groups, different ways to communicate
before august
idea: have it week-end only, don’t make it too long
one weekend in july!
have date by next meeting
have it 2 days, not 2 1/2
breaking the silo design process
not happening this evening, maybe another day this week
continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
co-working as an idea to get things going
co-working, when?
5. Actions/Outcomes
invite Nathalie to the Wise account (Bruno)
working on a draft to Jos (Bruno)
finally replying to Jos! (Vas)
check with Nick and maybe Tilmann about which dates would work for the karrot days (Nathalie)
send out a message to find a day of the week for co-working (Nathalie)
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
Nick: one morning, one afternoon, more options to work in pairs, could add a bunch of options over the week and people check-in at the beginning of week which slots they will join
Vas: nice to get motivation that we’re all working on the same project, prefer morning times, would prefer long session (6 hours!), maybe sounds long, but also take a nap… knowing there is someone else there, idea of “karrot day” nice
Bruno: need to talk to Madde to co-ordinate with kids, mornings/lunchtimes generally better, at least 1h, at most 2h, nice to have a more fixed time for karrot work, end of month frans will start school so more time available, try a few weeks and re-evaluate
Nathalie: maybe we can go for wednesday now! 2h “core” slot where everyone is there would be nice, then flexibility elsewhere
Proposal:
10-12 CEST wednesday, core co-working slot
optionally have more karrot work on wednesdays too
agreed!
Next steps
starting this week?
yes, although not everyone can make it
meet in jit.si room at the starting time?
do we want an activity for this?
of course! which place?
karrot days dates [D]
16/17 july
agreed!
should do a “save the date” announcement somewhere, can organise that in co-working tomorrow
should we keep the same forum topic, or have a fresh one
can be decided in the co-working thing
also can revives daves designs, they are shared somewhere in karrot, and with the link to the design tool
feedback on a ongoing conflict resolution
still strong reactions to everybody being involved in it
blame directed towards person who created the issue in karrot
one suggestion: send out only the initial notification when conflict starts, no notifications to everybody about messages
only subscribe the initiator and “target” to the conversation
big improvement in terms of effort/impact
is there a risk for it being confined to the two people involved in it only
knowledge about it goes around, so other people would join
seems enough if everybody at least gets the notification
maybe only subscribe the editors
confusion about messages (e-mail notifications)
people confuse notifications with messages to them
we found out we don’t particularly know how it works
questions:
what does the “new conflict resolution process” notification setting do?
what is the default option for that notification is?
who is notified when the issue is created?
who is added to the conversation when an issue is created?
who can vote?
is there a notification before the end?
current scenario
how we would like it to be
maybe also add another notification when it’s near the end (1 day to go)
we also have scheduled a design process for improving the conflict resolution feature
do we include this as input to that, or go ahead with a small change that we seem to have loose consensus on it
ask community on forum about it
good idea to not open up the whole topic in that moment, knowing we have our design process and karrot days coming up to explore the wider topic
including brunos experience that people will find out about the conflict within the group
open minded that it might work diferently in other groups
summary:
we should get to know our own tools
we probably shouldn’t add people into the conversation automatically, other than the two people
there could be a notification a day (for example) before it ends
answer the conflict resolution questions (nick/others?)
consult with karrot community on forum about proposed small changes (bruno)
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Nick
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
we like the second one, with the little things on it
should we specify more where online?
community.karrot.world as a banner and/or pinned post
make the link underlined, and not the sentence below
where is it going to be shared?
to different Karrot groups along with a short invitation
get the image on full resolution
feedback on schedule
included on the pad below the schedule table
Nathalie will do some changes
think about who will facilitate the sessions
karrot days next steps?
invite ppl for the lightning talks
prepare the invitation and the list of “guest” on the co-working
organize/plan workshops
plan tools to be used (jitsi or BBB? excalidraw?)
do we manage to decide on schedule next week and start inviting people?
a banner on Karrot?
let’s create a Karrot group, both to organize sessions and to play with!
feedback from Nick about hacktioncamp event [R]
hacklab started in the 90s and activist oriented
rooted in alternative news media/indie media
haven’t done anything in 5 years and got together again with a mix of old and new people
about 14 people joined the Karrot playground group for this occasion
one person active in the Transition Movement, Karrot might be interesting to transition groups (he set up humhub for some groups)
XR and transition movement set up a nice suite of tools, but local groups usually do not use them. National networks might be a bit centralizing in this sense
a reflection (connected to breaking the silo): more important that groups connect and communicate among themselves rather than the national organization
Nick got motivated to present tech tools for community organizing, together with people from other towns
People from radar.squat.net travel around and do work on the project on site. That’s a nice idea for Karrot as well
Some questions concerning GDPR, data protection and the legal form of the project were raised
Conflict resolution and trust were interesting for people, quite unique
Two parts session: one presentation (background, values etc.) and one interactive testing Karrot in a group
some reflections on how to do outreach for Karrot…
should people register and if not, how much do we want to encourage them? Round:
strenghen the need to register
not make it mandatory, but explain why it’s good to join the Karrot group. Suggestion: add more info about the Karrot days group
make it clear that it’s not mandatory, to make it feel more open
agrees not mandatory and to make it more persuasive to join the group
Agreed upon: “We encourage you to join Karrot days 2022 group where we will co-ordinate the event and hang out, but you can also just show up to a session”
share the image! In the banner at the forum? Yes!
Karrot banner: merged on dev.karrot.world
gets it from a post on a forum thread
it will get deployed soon, together with the Quasar update, which might bring some issues
get the forum thread ready and then publish
ability to post limited to Karrot contributors only
manual, write-up, documentation [E]
thoughts, ideas, how can this look like?
what needs to be done to fulfill NLnet tasks (roles, agreement feature)
different types of documents
documentation for users not in NLnet
screen casts were started
documentation of e.g. agreemetns feature is different than manual
for roles feature there is a lot in the forum
what’s the audience?
where should it be published? form? tone?
e.g. how does the trust system work - no place to look it up
more clarity
key audience: karrot contributors
wider discource, make connection with other projects
manual different than documentation
doc: how do we design the feature, how did we do that…
worth sharing
manual: keeping up what Tais started doing, could be videos
NLnet only asks for documentation, not creating a manual
user manual/ guidance
would be nice to have
lot of basic things
‘how to get to the wall’
guide needs to be inside karrot
not only in english
interactive type guide
topic based
video in it
NLnet things could be changed, fit it in
align with own motivation
there is already a help section on the trust system
expore more maybe in co-working
discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
add another sub-item: automatically add me to the conversations in new conflict resolution proces
default: “New conflict resolution process checked”, but sub-item not checked
Bruno proposes to have the option in the conflict resolution chat
a bit of trying out in the karrot feedback team
we found out that we cannot opt out entirely of the conversation
not sure it should be off by default, especially in cases one is involved or would like to participate
would you get automatically subscribed if you write on the conversation? (default behavior on Karrot now is yes)
conflict resolution in general is an important part of Karrot
likes the idea of not everyone getting subscribed, especially if the group is big
confusion between subscribing and actually participating in the conversation
what about when there is a group of people responsible for conflict and mediation?
also a feeling of being overwhelmed by the number of people in the discussion (the little faces on it)
keep the proposal of leaving it off by default and consistent with Karrot’s notification system
new proposal from forum
we agreed to that!
review of BBB for karrot days [E]
try it out for this evening’s session?
NLnet updates?
ask for money
5. Actions/Outcomes
Vasilis will prod Dave to see what the editing messages point is about (Vasilis)
Request $ Nlnet (Nick)
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: The Vasilitator
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
journal paper: stock foodsharing group sumbitted as a paper…governance things there, balance of structure → governance models paper, 4th paper, the smart fridge, run a workshop on that ‘smart’ style fridge, conceptualize a smart fridge, multidisciplinary workshop,
community organising with various levels of participation, human write-up ← casual article/blogspost. It can be a summary of it, scaling out rather than up, breaking the silo and Katie’s paper/work.
consented to bbb, technical intro in co-working session tomorrow
nathalie will check with chandi/matthias as we plan to use the living utopia server
planning sessions
nick & vas meet tonight and talk about breaking the silo session
bruno will be informed
slow tuesday next week again
invitations to non-karrot ppl?
fediverse?
adjacent communities we know and are connected to?
nathalie will see where to advertise it within foodsharing
updates from the invitation sent around
banner?
forum post
karrot ← needs some work
update info in karrot days group
money flow
a round in which one of us express how it felt to get the money contribution
nlnet milestones follow-up
general follow up. where we at? after the karrot days
editing wars, trust issues and group splitting
5. Actions/Outcomes
update karrot post and add the link to the meeting bbb room (Nathalie)
announce Karrot Days on the fediverse (Bruno)
reach B. from the brussels group (Nick)
write to Efa (Nathalie)
work on the banner for karrot (Nick will try, no promises though)
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week:
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
what happens to the conflict resolution when someone leaves?
it stops when you’re the subject
information about it on the vote tab
it continues when you’ve been the person starting it
no limit in parallel conflict resolution processes
knowing who is in another group?
not being in both groups after a split-up
actually you can see it on the members profil
let’s you see common groups and other groups
it shouldn’t be so visible
it is useful sometimes in ‘networks’
more options in user’s profile in the future?
culture of silence, people not speaking up
power positions in group
approving conflict resolution feature having this in mind
the more people speak up, the more comes to the surface
sensitive issues
empower people to raise a flag
problems need to be addressed, they come out sonner or later
building trust to avoid conflicts <–> dealing with conflicts when they happen (because they will)
‘how did we get so far on this’
how to identify conflicts in a group
supporting groups for good governance, e.g. agreements feature
cases when it’s a distaster, abuses - ‘toxic bomb’ in a group
Karrot team mostly separated from groups
makes it easier to talk about this critical topics
only Bruno is involved in very active local group which uses Karrot
more people with their own experiences would be great
psychological effects of self-organising
would be an interesting study
so important to (re)learn a loving way of organising (!!!) <3
‘what if’ scenarios
we could talk through them
what are the scenarios?
‘pick facilitator for next week’ move from Closing section to Opening? [Nathalie]
in the opening? yes
we try it out
Karrot Days
updating activity descriptions with full text?
proposal: faciliators do it for their session
Nicks apple sounds good, the proposal too
invitations to be sent out?
fediverse post uselful
invite bonfire
neighbs app (vas)
l200 zurich (vas)
‘every seed of connection is nice’
we did some already
add some teasers for the sessions on the Karrot group?
- ‘momentum building’
- post on karrot group?
- msg on the Karrot group wall @mentions
5. Actions/Outcomes
Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
invitations to groups/communities [all]
teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Bruno then! but…I am travelling i cannot do it…so…Nick it is!
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
Nathalie away next week until wednesday (away from 21th to 27th)
next meeting: next week tuesday as usual
slow tuesday, no nick, but vas checks with bruno
coworking tomorrow
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
5 min
Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
invitations to groups/communities [all]
teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)
4. Discussion points
how to evaluate karrot days [E]
maybe a bit of meta reflection + evaluation of karrot days itself
vas:
avoiding giving a number out of 10
it was great! didn’t expect having 10 people in a session for example, exceeded expectations, people who joined seemed very into it
a bit of disappointment that more people from the lightning talks didn’t participate in later sessions
maybe some people just wanted to jump in to give presentation then leave, hoped for more participation
would be nice to write something, like a blog post, or article, if somebody has the motivation, could go beyond a forum post, e.g. a news article, something can share with other alternative media, to report on process, a bit beyond karrot days, how we did it, how it was. also connected with the nlnet milestones, how different groups on karrot are using karrot, bringing it together. can share it with people and with nlnet.
“pestering people to come”, not very joyful/intuitive, but also worth doing it, being a prick for a while… maybe just because it’s the first time?
overlapping circles, karrot team, and groups that use karrot. not just us that have to reach out, just us accountable to them, but also both ways around. have to build the relationship, maybe pestering is worth doing. maybe should be more shared “responsibility”, not just karrot team. giving more responsibility to people who use software.
maybe rather than responsibility, it’s a sense of interdependence, from garden/CSA metaphor, have some people doing the gardening, since we’re enjoy beauty of garden, nice to help out once in a while
nathalie:
also had it in mind to write up a summary, was thinking of a forum post, other ideas are nice, but also bigger
forum post can include screenshots/pictures, to give a feeling, and link the pads with notes
also for us to have all information in one place, evaluation slides, etc. a place to find all the information
also being aware that karrot days group will be gone at some point unless we keep it alive (ok if we let it compost over time)! would be nice to have a closing post on there, can be casual
a bit confused on how to evaluate, don’t see so much follow-up evaluation, no ideas for a bigger evaluation process
was a really nice way to engage with the community, gave a sense of belonging, that they are connected through karrot, as have felt that it’s something that karrot is not providing, compared to foodsharing.de (which has an organisation), so cool to not be part of an organisation but see the connections and build on this, some groups more than others want to belong to karrot (as a community)
it’s quite some work, prompting people, etc. thinking wouldn’t personally just turn up to event from clicking on a link. personal invites make a huge difference. doesn’t Just Happen.
wondering about level of work compared to the number of people coming, put quite a lot of working into session, maybe too much for number of people attending, and maybe too stressed/professional, and couldn’t meet own expectations, wondering if too much for a small friendly group
felt very nice overall!
prompted a lot of thoughts and re-read some sociocracy stuff, some lingering questions around volunteers, and culture of allowing (fine for people to just use the software), emerging thoughts, not clear yet. would like to explore further with sociocracy people. don’t see every group taking responsibility, would be nice for more spaces where people from groups can be involved. could have a karrot group circle, and different models to ensure links.
also wondering why more people from the lightning talks stay, hard to make a session very appealing that is basically about connecting without a clear structure
wondering about open space session, maybe something clearer would help people to come, how much facilitation is needed? how to engage more with people?
thinking about future scenarios, do we want to repeat this kind of karrot days? different topic? more coding oriented? different style? in person?
nick:
how to evaluate (meta question), structured evaluation of previous things. A little bit of a structure (e.g. rose thorn, buds, open questions for the future), positive stuff + critical reflections. From unity days…cluster the two together → focus on future work. A more diffuse way might work as well
Direct evaluation: energy resourcing, felt motivated and energised afterwards, felt grounded, tanglible, rooted in experiences, there was a lot of alignment in general e.g. breaking the silo → can be on a tech way (federated protocols, dec tech) whereas breaking the silo can be more community centred, more social, less tech-centric (bolo-bolo thing might tie a lot)
evaluate how to move forward in general over the summer
writing an article for general consumption
a forum post that can be coherent, or dump enough (notes, links, writeups for the seesions, key takeaways). Those can be a nice base for writing an article
Interconnectedness between groups. Community cafe can be a way forward. Or pester sb monthy to partricipate in a ppt round
wider networking for Karrot itself: NVC stuff for example, what can we do to bring in ppl from other ‘ideas’. Network of communities of organizing. Ties in a a lot to what I have mind about bath. Resourcing the infrastructure. Resourcing: a festival, a community cafe vs isolating
what is the right number for a session? the example of the session Nick facilitated
in general I liked the number of ppl and not some random internet ppl to listen out of curiosity
emergent version: a space where ppl step in when they feel that they want to take on some responsibility. The see a a need and then ‘act’. More fluid structures.
form a ‘project circle’/‘helping circle’ for the conflict resolution design process? [E]
formalize/structure from the conflict resolution session for the design process
also a way to play with the circle structure, as a co-ordinating circle, and a temporary connected circle we give the authority to for this specific feature?
writing a little template so a group can act on it, e.g. “design the next conflict resolution feature”, and how the decision part is, give the power!
there were some discussion about power terms (e.g. leader), but maybe appoint someone here
could give Tomek a structure to act in, maybe Bruno/Vas to lead?
also seemed to happen a bit with the breaking the silo process
reporting back was kind of informal, could have more intentional reporting
Aim/expected outcome/mandate
Domain
Leader
Term/review date
A plan for membership in the circle
do we want to bring more intentionality to the structures?
Nick: bring more intentionality (YES), experiment stuff and evaluating, what would enable tomek for example to participate? There is some overlap with the design process itself which is a frame to bring in different input (ask the expert). Sociocracy by the book might not neccesarily adjust to this…reflection on the design sessions in general. What have worked? What we want to throw away. Things can surface out from a looking on session/document on design sessions. Trying to make a structured process is really hard to get this regular participation.
Vas: don’t have much to add, easier to work with people now we’ve since each others faces (people in groups), have established a relationship. a forum post is probably not enough. personal connection is important. might make sense to have more of a structured process, e.g. in a karrot group have a forum to be able to share with the karrot team? so having messages directly in the karrot team group from the groups… more direct means of communication. not sure if anything makes any sense
Nathalie: would like to see this kind of structure, based on assumption that we have the decision power, and we give it somewhere, which is probably actually the reality. more generally the topic of formalization of structure. different of feedback and decision power. aim of project circle, e.g. “design next conflict resolution feature”, could be more explicit about using the design process.
Vas: from some chats with Bruno, somehow decided not to follow the same path we did for the agreements feature, to be a bit quicker, and “good enough for now”, so didn’t open up the process so much, and less reporting. also have to take into account nlnet thing. how to balance possible funding to get with how open/participatory we are. have to submit MVP for conflict resolution by october, so needs to be part of equation.
Nick: decision power: if there is noone to enact a decision there is no much point in making a decision. Motivation (mainly intrinsic) and materials/resoruces available. Grousp of ppl making decisions and plans but totally disconnected with the ability. Alignement needs to exist. Counter-part:Develp sth that is already designed and clearly described (e.g. Freiburg group).
permacutlure design: make clear the boundaries you are working within
Nathalie: within project circle, can consider what needs to be represented, e.g. a developer, to represent software perspective, how to create ideal circle.
Nick: see’s two levels of stuff we’re talking about, how to move forward with conflict resolution design process, and the wider topics of governance of karrot project, which deserves it’s own space
Nathalie: maybe some of the sociocratic structures are too rigid for how we’re organising right now, maybe worth bringing the clarity though to the first design process meeting, to frame it more clearly, which is less than the full structural version
Vas: since there is already a process in place, some work done on breaking the silo, some input on karrot days, tending to meet tuesday night for breaking the silo. new ideas for experimentations, e.g. creating a circle, might happen more intuitively, e.g. reach out to people next week, if they join, open up the discussion, and check in with existing ideas. so build on top of existing pieces.
Nathalie: a lot of personal ponderings about sociocracy stuff, maybe winter is a good time for wider organisational structure reflection
bruno lurking and enjoying the notes
hey bruno
hope you aall having fun!
NLnet money came in!
evaluate our nlnet milestones situation
5. Actions/Outcomes
ponder “helpdesk” and/or community cafe sessions further [Nick, Vasilis]
reach out to people from karrot days about conflict resolution process, tag them on karrot, or send them a personal message [Vasilis]
karrot days next steps
what to do with the karrot days group
write a message on it! [Nathalie]
collecting the resources in a forum post [Vasilis, Nathalie…]
writing an article for general audience [Vasilis,…Nick interested in in happening and wondering how to support it :)]
background ponderings about karrot organisation structures, maybe to open up more in the winter after this season of work [anyone]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Bruno (as punishment for bailing on us this meeting)m
pick facilitator for next week*: (* a few meetings ago we decided to try and do this in the opening section)
Nathalie
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
5 min
contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
schedule work on “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” to co-working session on the 10th of August, send reminder [Bruno]
email Jos [Nick]
see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]
one disk was broken but we don’t know for how long, Tilmann found out when he tried to reboot
took some time to find that out after it could not boot
a lot of organisational legacy stuff, back from Foodsharing days
got assistance from the provider Manitu and they were really nice in their support
there will probably be some costs (support + disk replacement?)
good to have at some point in the future our own server
Nick and Tilmann had to juggle a bit with their own plans, but it felt like a nice team work
it was a nice opportunity to make it human and not (work/service-like) professional to Karrot users
stressful situation, especially when it’s still not diagnosed
brings up the question of responsibility and vulnerability: if Tilmann and Nick were completely unavailable, would other people step up to fix it?
could other people in the team have been more supportive?
since it’s a very technical issue, not much in this sense, but not making it very serious and stressful helped
could we set up some kind of emergency routine?
update prototype testing [R]
testing with Daniel from Luxembourg yesterday
good insight, with ideas to fix some things
location: at the moment we create activities as part of a place, that may or may not have a location, and might be nice to be able to set a location directly for an activity
suggestion is that the email address should be verified (for signing up)
discussion around the chat, when could you join the chat? verify email? join chat before signing up?
if you want to ask a bit more about it, how would that work?
public activities being visible during the application process
e.g. introduction meetings to support onboarding processes
might be a view on the group preview page to see the public activities
some would be nicer to have as private links, rather than listed on the group preview page
might be able to facilitate better intergroup exchange, e.g. can click on another group and see what they’re up to
… and some notes to evaluate further
prototype itself had some more superficial issues, but didn’t affect the idea itself
testing with Dave tonight
do 1 or 2 more, but not a lot, and have it done
also had an idea to test with non-karrot users
for the milestone?
going through notes and memories for this breaking the silo design process, and write a short friendly text/summary, and put on the blog…
nice continuing evolution of design process, with penpot tool, etc… hopefully can empower more people to lead these processes to evolve new ideas within karrot
money flow [R]
just making sure we did it all
end of august plan another money circle
look at who is receiving money and how much, and how people felt, check balance, new people, new wishes?
nick: little pa"nick"! state (Nick) the amount of stuff and duration (1st of Oct) feel overwhelmed, ‘life struggles’ as well, resynchornize my brain with the state of reality
nat: totally relate, wasnt part of this agreement, I feel like extra (a bit), limited to the non-tech things, its good if some money come in but I m not super dependent on it, reconsider our relation with the funding
vas: also part of phd research, get pressure from supervisors to write, end of sept to write something for a conference, want to prioritise nlnet milestones, important the milestones are done to some extent, contributing to more than karrot, but personal lives of contributors, milestones signed up to are doable
bruno: thought a little already, felt a little pressure, really need to be more disciplined and mange time better, hopefully will manage to do them all, ambiguous feeling, a bit more stress, don’t like deadlines, but also a little pressure can be good, sometimes people perform better under pressure, giving structure/motivation, gives him a little more focus, trying to get balance, can relate to nicks feelings, reflections on sense of obligations, nlnet maybe used to projects like ours, if we have good communication should be no problem, are the obligation feelings about seeking validation from figures of authority? also pressure from financial aspects?
nathalie: nice to have a goal, giving some structure, low motivation so good parts of pressure, ideal would be if something is only for the money, not wanting that, but clashes with reality… leads to having no money. maybe we should say no to something in the milestones… not end up with a big crush in last week of september
vas: agree with nathalie, if we can decide in the next days that something isn’t happening, can remove some pressure? reflecting on relationships with funding institution, doesn’t currently feel like pressure from them, liked the approach to not be accountable to external orgs, but to the community (which would be totally different funding concept, e.g. crowdfunding), real-life is maybe a combination… was still good move to apply to it
bruno: I agree… continuous evaluation of what we’re going to make or scrap, do what we can do maybe crowdfunding future is good…
nathalie: in context of karrot days, was it a distraction from the milestones?
positive to privacy policy themselves, but not rushing because of app store
human perspective privacy policy would be nice
banner on testing public activities prototype [D]
idea: short text with a link to more information on a forum post, where people can find the link to the prortotype
what about the frequency of putting up new banners? We don’t want to annoy people
how long will the banner stay up if it’s not closed?
latest post about outage was deleted. Last one about Karrot Days still shows
Manual deletion is required when banner message is not relevant anymore
propose to give Bruno all the power in the world to write the message on the banner MWUAHAHAAAAAA!!
metapoint: Nick doesn’t feel consent or permission is necessary on this topic
some fixing still needed on the prototype before putting up this banner
5. Actions/Outcomes
contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Bruno]
improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
