Weekly call about Karrot development 2022

Date: 2022-03-15 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Brazilitator (Bruno)
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Nathalie, Vas

1. Check in and Updates

  • agree duration
  • checkin
  • Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
    • MoU agreed!

2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

3. Discussion points

  • updates interviews
    • With Lund this week
      • participated in their general introduction meeting for volunteers and had afterwards mostly a free flowing chat
      • it was quite successful in terms of getting to know each other (Lund group and Karrot team)
      • they don’t put the recipes on Karrot because the image gets cropped
      • roles might work well for them when organizing events
    • 7 interviews were done so far, 3-4 more (France, Bilbao…)
    • we should start organizing the notes
  • next steps breaking the silo
    • collect interview notes and reflect on it
    • maybe bring people from the different groups together on the karrot days
    • what can we do synch vs async
    • idea: create a template for groups to meet in person and sketch solutions
    • First step for "Breaking the Silo"
  • activity roles next steps
    • Applicant trial pickup proposal - #51 by bruno
    • think more carefully about the words and the concept: “roles”, “approved”
    • what are the limits of volnteering, would it actually work to separate activities in these different “roles”
    • it makes sense that some tasks/roles are open for anyone (pickup) and others (coordinator) are more based on qualification or group decision
  • next focus for me (nick)
    • will look into the MoU
    • add Karrot to coop-cloud sounds nice!
  • money!
    • Nick’s running out of money!
    • suggested amount of 500GBP/month
    • we need a meeting on that! Go forward with the money circle
  • karrot days?
  • deploy next version

4. Actions/Outcomes

  • collect some thoughts together on breaking the silo design process (bruno, and maybe others)
  • schedule a meeting focused on breaking the silo topic (Bruno)
  • discussion on the forum thread about activity roles (anyone)
  • discuss next week how to reinvigorate the money circle (all)
  • discuss karrot days next week
  • fix little niggles on @-mentions before deployment (Nick)

5. Closing Ceremony

  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

6. Next

Next meeting: 2022-03-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: The Vasilitator
Where: Jitsi Meet

Date: 2022-03-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Check in and Updates

2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • collect some thoughts together on breaking the silo design process (bruno, and maybe others)
  • schedule a meeting focused on breaking the silo topic (Bruno)
  • discussion on the forum thread about activity roles (anyone)
  • discuss next week how to reinvigorate the money circle (all)
  • discuss karrot days next week
  • fix little niggles on @-mentions before deployment (Nick)

3. Discussion points

  • onboarding people into karrot team
    • ideas coming from sociocracy academy
      • academy is a weekly meeting
    • perspective of Nathalie being new to the group
    • maybe 1-on-1 conversations 10 minutes before the meeting?
    • Karrot
    • uncertainty about governance of the karrot team when joining
    • emotional emergencies
    • building trust in a group, inviting authenticity, connecting as humans
      • idea of having a “go around” where you visit each part of the org
      • also relates to our karrot context of trust
      • nice to get to know each other
      • sometimes we’ve had entire karrot meetings of connecting, very fluid way, going with flow/mood
      • … but risk of losing focus there
      • trying to get right balance, too much stucture loses spontaneousity
      • dance of fluidity and formality
      • could designate more free flowing part and more structured part
      • good to have a guide for onboarding
    • onboarding in general vs a specific person
    • connecting in personal way + finding something to contribute within project
    • having a specific time slot for free flowing / extended checkin?
  • sociocracy input from Nathalie
    • using Karrot as training ground for course
      • different topics/badges will come up throughout the course
      • so can use karrot to try those
      • open to hearing when it’s too much
    • faciliation badge in particular
      • https://www.sociocracyforall.org/badge-f2/
      • template for meeting format, similar to our existing karrot one
      • … but a little bit more prepared in advance
      • would need help to support that to build agenda (maybe before meeting)
      • maybe do 2 sessions, and then collect some feedback (which gets handed in as part of course)
      • 12th april might be the first one
    • Karrot
  • revive money circle?
    • two ways forward?
      • just decide money-related things in the general meeting
      • revive the separate money circle
    • nice to try and schedule at least one meeting more specifically focused on money
      • would could be during general meeting time (to avoid it dragging on)
      • or a standalone one
    • concept would be set a basis/grounding for how to distribute money within karrot
      • we chatted about it a lot, but didn’t write it down anywhere, or clarify
      • YAFP - Yet Another Forum Post :slight_smile:
    • we did make some concept
      • core contributions (with more like basic income)
      • solidarity rate payment for occasional contributors
      • others that are happy to contribute without money
    • postponed a bit because MoU got delayed
    • more pressing timing because of Nicks money situation
    • also an opportunity for more people to join
    • it might be we see no need for money circle regular meetings? could bring up as needed
      • money agreements clear, and if somebody thinks about a change, we can chat in meeting?
    • maybe put it into the next meeting?
    • how about legal status?
      • how is it possible to get money? freelance?
    • recurring meeting could be overload if not much to talk about
      • but good to create a review space to evaluate how it’s going
      • find out how it feels for people, pressure, transitions dynamic to work? dynamic with volunteers? etc.
      • important not to forget about the review of it
    • discussing how to do banking/money
  • breaking the silo next steps
    • split between actual topic and meta topic of how to run a design sprint
    • would be good to do these wider framing part of it
      • what do we need, what kind of design problem do we have
      • first stage of design sprint it quite nicely aligned for this
    • scheduling the breaking the silo topic
      • Karrot
      • need for sync and async work
      • maybe a core group/team to move on with it, to get continuity and people, so we get something done
      • previous process was too long, so need for more flexible ways
    • still nice to follow the steps from the last design process, but less rigidly, fewer meetings
    • First step for "Breaking the Silo" - #2 by bruno
    • We are designing governance features and we need your input! - #4 by nathalie
  • reviving inactive groups, request from Lausanne https://community.karrot.world/t/revive-foodsharing-lausanne/878
    • quite fiddly to restore group (well, the people in it)
    • warning message says you can contact an administrator to revive it
    • maybe some information is lost, but maybe it’s good…
    • can’t create new group with the same name though…
      • manually rename it?
      • when groups have 0 people left maybe make them go away entirely
        • still in db for historic info
        • … but not visible anywhere
    • is duration for becoming inactive/removed right?
      • users marked as inactive after a month (don’t get emails any more) ← maybe this can be extended
      • after 6 months get told they’ll be removed
      • a week after that, removed
      • eventually groups with no active end up with 0 people in them and they are useless
    • does the group hold knowledge or information or is it in the people
  • “trial activites/roles” discussion progress
  • karrot days?

4. Actions/Outcomes

  • next week have a more personal/extended checkin (all)
  • 12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
  • write a forum post about money (Nick)
  • scheduling a breaking the silo meeting (Bruno, and others)
  • ask Tilmann if he wants to do anything about Lausanne group request (Nick)
  • reply to trial activities/roles forum post (Nick)

5. Closing Ceremony

  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

6. Next

Next meeting: 2022-03-29 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet

Date: 2022-03-29 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Participants: Nick, Vasilis, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Check in and Updates

  • agree duration
    • 13.00 UK time
  • checkin
  • Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)

2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • next week have a more personal/extended checkin (all)
  • 12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
  • write a forum post about money (Nick)
  • scheduling a breaking the silo meeting (Bruno, and others)
  • ask Tilmann if he wants to do anything about Lausanne group request (Nick)
  • reply to trial activities/roles forum post (Nick)

3. Discussion points

  • a more personal/extended checkin

    • ‘protocol’ for welcoming ppl esp the importance of check in and check out
    • onboarding process how we inform ppl about that?
    • full-bodied facilitation can bring their own methodology
    • very extended check in today
      • share a thing u d like too and follow up questions possibly…
  • NLnet planning

    • “if your work isn’t completed just yet, tell us how much of the project you will be able to finish; and if applicable, how much budget you would like to return for others to benefit from”
    • need to do some planning! what needs to be done?
    • what feels good in our lives, interests and the project
    • ppl from the bigger community?
    • precise description of tasks, clear task for this or that
    • more people to engage in programming?
      • michael, lars, freiburg group?
    • a kind of Kanban board to see the tasks and who’s doing it could be useful
  • on the money topic

    • what’s the solidarity about in the occasional contributor’s solidarity rate?
      • solidarity towards the person contributing but also the project as a whole , Karrot cannot pay market rates
      • Karrot cannot formalize things as an employer
      • ackowledgement that we cannot really provide for people’s needs and that people who contribute can do it because of their privileges
    • better to change hourly rates to negotiated wage
      • might be problematic to ask people how they value their time/work
      • maybe assign a value to a task?
  • karrot days?

    • next time…

4. Actions/Outcomes

  • upload finalized MoU to forum, removing first page with addresses (nick)
  • engage with the topic on the forum (all)
  • continue the money talk (all)

5. Closing Ceremony

  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

6. Next

Next meeting: 2022-04-05 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet

(last week me and Bruno had an informal call, but didn’t take notes)

Date: 2022-04-12 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Vas, Bruno

1. Check in and Updates

  • agree duration 1h30
  • checkin
  • Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)

2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
  • upload finalized MoU to forum, removing first page with addresses (nick)
  • engage with the topic on the forum (all)
  • continue the money talk (all)

3. Discussion points

  • [Nathalie] Hey… I’m really sorry, but I don’t feel well today and can’t do the meeting. I switched back the pad, to not let you too confused. I think the topics can still stay. I know it’s quite unfortunate timing… I’d still be motivated to do the preparing and facilitation next week. See you soon!
  • reply to Nlnet
    • Nlnet is waiting for a reply to their last mail
    • idea: write about status quo
    • who’s doing it?
    • we already started working on milestones
    • not sure right now which we’ll manage within the time
    • send a holding reply for now
    • maybe in a month we can be in a better position?
  • nlnet planning
  • on the money topic
  • meeting breaking the silo
  • stockholm meeting
    • holding introductory volunteers meeting soon
    • asked Katie if we could join as observers
    • approved! but date not confirmed yet
    • can ask to stay after to have dialogue
  • questionaire for groups

4. Actions/Outcomes

  • send holding reply to nlnet (nick)
  • fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (all)
  • contribute to money topic thread before next meeting How to distribute money in Karrot
  • make the money topic the first one for the next meeting

5. Closing Ceremony

  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

6. Next

Next meeting: 2022-04-19 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet

Date: 2022-04-19 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1h then see
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • on 27th may, next thursday, sociocracyforall conference, day long, could be of interest to peeps
    • next meeting: Design Process 19.04. 20:00 CEST, General 26.04. 12:00 CEST

2. Consent to agenda

  • 5 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 10 min
  • send holding reply to nlnet (nick)
  • fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (all)
    • tilman, nick, and bruno filled it in
    • vas and nathalie to be gently tickled into filling it in too
  • contribute to money topic thread before next meeting How to distribute money in Karrot
  • make the money topic the first one for the next meeting
  • :tada: Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
    • first meeting on Breaking the Silo took place!
    • nick and vasilis made a nice diagram for breaking the silo

4. Discussion points

  • 5 min each agenda item has a short describtion [R]
    • report [R] clarifying the information
    • exploration [E] hearing reactions & ideas
    • decision [D] making a decision
    • they build up on each other
    • also there is an estimated time for each agenda item
    • difference between operational point and a policy/ general agreement
  • 5 min consent to mostly speak in rounds for this and the next meeting [D]
    • idea is to have more equality in group
      • natural flow is highly biased by inherent dynamics inside us
        • e.g. women speak less than men (based on research)
      • hear everyones voice
    • can be easier to listen to others
      • creates the focused time when to listen
      • you know you’ll have your space to speak
    • making it more a sociocratic
    • we both see the value in it, and nice to try it out
      • we have tried a bit, but have a lot of free flow still
      • interesting to try out more intentional approach, then reflect
    • no objections raised! :tada:
  • 25 min on the money topic [E]
    • work on basic agreement, our base philosophy
    • building up on proposal ideas: How to distribute money in Karrot
    • sense building to create a document (policy) from this discussion
    • clarify our open questions (what needs to be answered in this document)
      • which rate/agreement/policy for middle tier “occasional contributor”
        • do we suggest a rate? (per hour? monthly? per task?) negotiation? or mix of both?
        • Nick: more into the negotiation direction, including a context explaining how we see this topic
        • Bruno: focus on the negotiation (not a nice word! making a tension like employer/employee), focus on the context and values we try with money, but could suggest reference rates, to avoid situation where somebody feels uncomfortable to say a number (“aarhrhrah is it too much/little”), base value to start discussion with
        • Nathalie: seems unlikely a complete outsider would just sign an hourly rate contract and do a task without communicating with us (distant model for us, and the spirit/values), should have negotiation bit (in a nice setting), maybe specify a range,
          • could the “occasional contributor” level be higher than the basic income level?
      • where do we put the “document” when it’s done?
        • Nick: maybe in a “policy” forum category?
        • Bruno: agrees with Nick, hopefully can use agreements feature in karrot when it’s ready :slight_smile:
      • how do we decide on the agreement for each contibutor?
        • Nathalie: should be a money circle for this, where the agreements are made
          • if it’s a small circle of only a couple of people, that get the money, is it right if they decide? should there be approval from the main meeting? too much overhead?
          • could work to be linked to normal meeting, but should have clear cut separation?
        • Nick: a circle could work if enough ppl want to do it, otherwise might be confusing/ hard to schedule meetings
          • the circle could be kind of evaluation meeting, to see if Karrot and the person fit well, so it’d be more than about just the money
        • Bruno: best if it’s in a seperate meeting, but also what Nick said is true, easier to ask people to just come to weekly meeting, but nicer to have a more focused session to talk about money, also might work a bit as an onboarding process, talking about karrot and the person
      • what is not in the document (out of scope)?
        • Nick: thinking, pondering… it will probably emerge more clearly in the process of writing. Maybe some of the legal and practical stuff
        • Bruno: practicalities out of scope, document should be about how we think about the money topic and paying people to contribute to karrot, and how to come to an agreement, how people get paid, who’s paying, which account, where the money comes from, could be left out of this one
        • Nathalie: not a strong opinion, pratical bits should maybe be written somewhere, but this one could be more general, but not everything is for being public, maybe that can be written elsewhere
      • is there an upper limit? (per month?)
        • Nick: no, seems a bit arbitary to me, and reference rates might be sufficient
        • Bruno: agree, reference rate range, or maybe 1 figure, negotiation will give a feeling… don’t need to formalise that now
        • Nathalie: would like an orientation range, and would find it wierd if the 2nd level (occasional contributor) would be higher than the 1st level (basic income thing)
      • should there be a separate money circle?
        • … we talked about this in “how do we decide on the agreement for each contibutor?”
    • moving to decision part?
      • we have the basis for the agreement already
        • topic has been dragging on a little
        • maybe we can move to decision by next week?
      • would be nice to get going with being able to make payments
        • not so much urgency from me (Nick)
      • spirit of getting going, and doing continuing evaluation
  • meta question on faciliation process
    • what if a technical point comes up during the meeting?
    • or about adding extra agenda points durin the meeting?
    • adding decisions part way through?
    • guideline: as long as we consent, it’s fine
    • nice to stay within topic, whilst leaving space for questions a they arrive

next time:

  • 10 min karrot days [E]
    • status quo, gathering ideas
  • 10 min questionaire for groups
  • 5 min Nlnet responsiblities
    • next steps and open questions

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • create a money proposal for next week (Nathalie)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
  • checkout

Date: 2022-04-26 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Bruno
Hours:
Days:
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Vasilis, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1:30h
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
    • next meeting: Design Process 26.04. 20:00 CEST, General 03.05. 12:00 CEST

2. Consent to agenda

  • 5 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • create a money proposal for next week (Nathalie)
  • fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (nathalie, vas)
  • :tada: Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
    • Vas was at the Stockholm meeting and got some notes
    • some students fixed the activity type filter
      • hard to support these kinds of contributions
    • Tilmann will be less active with coding in the near future (definitely not a celebration!)

4. Discussion points

  • 25 min Money distribution in karrot [D]

    • see proposal
    • clarifing questions
    • reaction round(s)
      • would add some values (how we relate to the money issue) to the text. Can add it later…
      • this could work as a proposal and likes the open questions part (especially regarding the question about privileges)
      • likes the idea of bringing up the question of privileges and equity and proportionate rate. Wonders how to value contribution per hour. Would also add something about how we see money on Karrot.
      • likes the points above: values context. would make some minor word changes and maybe a short working session would be enough. For now it’s good enough and we see how that feels. Money topic is infinite, let’s keep the discusion ongoing. Let’s be aware if this policy could be abused
    • we’ll do a quick session to work on the fine details and discuss where to post it
    • reaction to changes (a first paragraph about how we see money, an inclusion of Karrot users to the money circle, and some language corrections)
      • liked the changes
      • maybe shorten the first paragraph or make it into 2. Maybe introduce with something more positive
      • liked the changes, could rewrite the first paragraph but main ideas are there already
      • switch the order of the paragraphs. Including any user of Karrot might not be ok. Is it the right space?
    • consent round
      • do we consider it good enough to try?
      • two objection about one sentence “so they don’t need to spend their time selling their labour”
        • we rephrased it and consent
      • one objection about the rate. Comments:
        • there needs to be a number… relates to a minimum wage
        • what’s the point of giving a per hour if we do not track the time? We could keep it like this and see how it will or will not work
        • consents, but flexible with having it or not
        • there might be edge cases regarding a contributors productivity, but consent
        • objection withdrawn, but it would be nice to include an explanation on the rate at some point
      • consent given to the proposal!
    • next steps
      • discuss next week where to publicize it
      • money circle in two weeks
  • we ran out of time here, next topics postponed

  • 15 min karrot days [E]

    • status quo, gathering ideas
  • 15 min questionaire for groups [E]

  • 10 min Nlnet responsiblities

    • next steps and open questions
    • priorities

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
  • checkout

Proposal: Money distribution in karrot

to be posted in a “policies” category in the forum

The karrot project receives money through funding and donations. We want to redistribute this money to people that already are or want to get involved.

We work within a culture of intrinsic motivation, so we aim for money not being the main motivator for contributing to Karrot. However, we recognize that people need to make a living and have different degrees of privileges and needs, so we would like to support them to spend less time doing work they don’t enjoy. Karrot’s support to contributors will happen within the project’s financial capacities.

All agreements are made together in a “money circle”. We discuss and decide an agreement for each contributor individually. Everyone who joins the weekly meetings, uses Karrot, and additionally everyone who wishes to contribute or to receive money is invited to the money circle.

The money circle needs to be announced beforehand. For practical reasons it usually takes place after the weekly meeting, which is shortened then.

The following serves as a guideline for decision making:

3 categories of contribution

  • committed contributor → receives money monthly on a “basic income” level
  • occasional contributor → flexible time and amount, reference is 15€/h
  • volunteer contributor → don’t wish to receive money for whatever reason

Questions that might be explored during discussions

  • “what we need” → needs based, food, housing, travel
  • “what we do” → time based, how much we put in in terms of hours or responsibility
  • “what we offer” → output based, how much value we are sharing
  • “what surrounds us” → country we live in, priviliges we hold, wealth we have access to

Date: 2022-05-03 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Vas, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • motivational speech
    “Simplicity, patience, compassion.
    These three are your greatest treasures.
    Simple in actions and thoughts, you return to the source of being.
    Patient with both friends and enemies,
    you accord with the way things are.
    Compassionate toward yourself,
    you reconcile all beings in the world.”
    (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching)
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check again in 1h
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
    • next meeting: General 2022-05-10 12:00 CEST, Design Process 2022-05-03 20:00 CEST

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (nathalie, vas)
  • :tada: Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
    • Nick hosted nice person from Poland who might get involved with self organised style tech stuff and with the Foodsharing Warszawa group, would be nice!
    • money agreement nearly ready, yay!

4. Discussion points

  • 4 min nlnet Jos [R, E?]

    Hello Nick,

    Good to see that you have clear assignment of the tasks on your
    Discourse instance. We’re looking forward to finished milestones.

    It’s best that you work in they way you’re comfortable. We measure
    progress primarily by submitted requests for payment. So when there are
    non of those yet, we do wonder about the progress.

    What is your expectation on the finishing of the milestones?

    Best regards,
    Jos

    • nick felt a bit overwhelmed opening it, and a bit of pressure, or uncertainity
    • nathalie
      • reasonable what they are saying
      • feels like some things in the list can be finished quite soon
      • e.g. roles thing, and a little writeup, and a celebration! would be motivational
      • not very far away now
      • aim to identify what can be done, and focus on that for the next email to them
    • vas
      • what do they mean about the finishing of milestones?
        • which ones we think we might not finish, and they can reallocate money to other projects
      • need to priorities which milestones we aim at finishing
      • when is deadline?
        • end of october? should check it out
      • talk about nlnet priorities next week
  • 20 min Money distribution in karrot [D]

    • open questions
      • where to post it?
        • a post on the forum and in the karrot team karrot group
          • maybe a short post on karrot, then linked to forum post
        • maybe on mastodon too?
        • new category on forum “policies” and post it there
        • word “policies” a bit too official sounding? bureaucratic, and maybe sounds not open for discussion?
        • maybe “agreements” category, as thats what we came up with in our agreements design process
        • proposal: “agreements” category on forum - check!
      • add people who worked and consented to it at the bottom?
        • seems good! - check!
      • add review date? (when we schedule to look at it again)
        • 6 months from now?
        • agreement…
        • remembering that group agreement feature should have review bit in it
        • so, concern that we might not keep track of it
        • could make an activity for it, and maybe put it on this calender Karrot event calendar - #7
        • proposal: review in 6 months and add an activity - check!
      • where to have ongoing discussion about it?
        • forum? and where on karrot group? (somewhere more visible, so “General” place)
        • re-use existing thread on the money circle
          • could link to that thread in the agreement post
          • so separating agreement post from discussion thread
        • hard to designate specific places for specific discussions, they pop up where they pop up…
        • proposal: write up on this thread How to distribute money in Karrot to link to the post in the agreement section - check!
      • next money circle?
        • next week?
        • shorten general call, and have it after that
        • need to announce it somehow? maybe on the general wall
        • and also write in the activity description that it’s a money call (or rather, has one on the end)
        • proposal: assign vasiliator for the money call next week, who can then work out where to post/announce stuff - check!
  • 5 - 10 min karrot days [E]

    • status quo, gathering ideas
    • motivation to drive it a little forward, get feeling from the group
    • should push forward karrot days, make it happen!
    • one idea do it before July so we still have people not on vacation
    • looking at the nlnet milestones, maybe a couple of things we could work on, ones that are a bit more exploratory
    • e.g. have a breaking the silo workshop, come up with scenarios with what we’ve done so far, then mess around on a miro board
    • maybe a 2 day event, meeting, chatting, and some hands-on exploratory work together
    • karrot days got postponed, echo off that
    • how does it fit in personal life
    • great idea still
    • hands on stuff connected to the milestones, not addition to milestones
    • maybe some coding
    • monthly community cafe is a nice idea, cross over with karrot days
    • looking forward to the karrot days, a nice situation to join
    • seemed to hang in the air for some time, not much info about the postponment
    • would look forward to some fun and evening things
    • a more intense focused time 2-3 days with schedule (compared to scattered around a week)
    • already some ideas around for what it could do
    • so maybe task is to find a date that works for people
    • if motivation is high, then maybe it could work
    • before July also…
    • from discussions in groups (in our breaking the silo stuff), most of the information about karrot days hasn’t made it to the groups, but when chatting with the groups they’re up for it, chatting to other group, etc
    • so question is how to reach people, beyond just a forum post
    • interest of group to chat to other groups? e.g. about conflict resolution
    • spaces to talk about topics “how to…” onboard/ found a group
  • 5 min questionaire for groups [R]

    • Vas is working on it, not done yet
  • optional: 10 min reflection in Nathalies faciliation [E]

    • next time

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • ask what is needed to fill in responsiblities doc [Nathalie, Vas?]
  • write holding reply to nlnet that we have quite a few nearly there, and we’ll send more detail about those next week [Nick]
  • create “agreements” category and post the money agreement there [Vas]
  • create an activity in the “Funding” place to review the money policy [Nathalie]
  • link from How to distribute money in Karrot to the money agreement post (that will be created above) [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Vasilitator
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-05-10 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: until 13.30 CEST
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Vas is waiting for another week to make his announcement :wink:
      • Nathalie will send a little feedback questionnaire on her facilitation
    • next meeting:
      • General weekly 2022-05-17 12:00 CEST
      • Design Process Breaking the silo 2022-05-10 20:00 CEST

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • ask what is needed to fill in responsibilities doc [Nathalie, Vas?]
  • write holding reply to nlnet that we have quite a few nearly there, and we’ll send more detail about those next week [Nick]
    • we don’t know what happened here
  • create “agreements” category and post the money agreement there [Vas]
  • create an activity in the “Funding” place to review the money policy [Nathalie]
    • Nathalie did it with new editor rights in the karrot group
  • link from How to distribute money in Karrot to the money agreement post (that will be created above) [Nathalie]
    • Vas did it
  • celebrations?
    • Nathalie had a look at the karrot days pad

4. Discussion points

  • 15 min nlnet planning [E]

    • more detailed answer to Jos (it has to wait)
    • start working on a reply now, check later with Nick
    • what are we able to fulfill until end of october
      1. Improve developer experience
        • Nick & Tilmann need to decide, seems to go forward, almost done?
        • time scope?
          → (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
      2. Roles feature
        • first iteration is ready to implement, how does the coding go?
        • Put name down as responsible even if there are no coding skills? “Taking the lead”, making sure it will happen, is also good. More like a manager. Motivational aspect.
        • Nathalie will put here name there!
        • write-up and documentation still a bit open. Write a forum post. Make it accessible. Nathalie will feel responsible too
          → (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
      3. Design and develop feature toward ‘breaking the silo’ among groups on Karrot and the wider public outside Karrot
        • Bruno proposes to finish “Conduct and publish writeup of design process” by July/ August
        • see how it can fit with karrot days to get some feedback
        • karrot days in June/July would be cool
          → we can deliver something until October!
      4. Agreements feature
        • Nathalie and Bruno want to see this feature and are therefore motivated
        • Nathalie will put her name down and Bruno will be really supportive, working starts in 1-2 months (for “Writeup process and documentation for agreements feature”)
        • check with Nick about the implementation part (or other devs in a supportive position?)
          → (reply to Jos) holding on to it
      5. Refining places and activities feature
        • Bruno could come up with first sketch at some point, start the process, work on design
        • Vas motivated to help, hopes for input from karrot days
        • lower priority for now?
        • could come up with minimal version later
        • check with technical stuff
        • places and activites seem to work fine in karrot now
        • task would need to start from the beginning
          → (reply to Jos) a bit unsure (we need to check it in x months? <–would this work?)
      6. Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
        • Vas is the steward
        • “Document participatory processes (for other projects)” can be combined with phd maybe, a bit vague at this point
          • a blog post on the topics could be nice
          • an extra website maybe
        • Conduct and publish writeup into how Karrot is being used until June/ July with data from interviews, inside stories
        • Guide for participants on how to contribute
          • extended list of ways into karrot
          • e.g. fo students
          • how can you do it
          • co-working session at some point
          • it’s not a big issue, just needs to be done
            → (reply to Jos) 2 of 3 will be done for sure, the 3. one a bit more optional
      7. Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
        • complicated topic
        • think about next iteration and test it
        • conduct design process even in fewer sessions than breaking the Silo
        • start the latest end june, make it topic for karrot days
        • start right after Breaking the Silo, maybe a bit overlapping
        • have it in august/september
          • is this too late for implementation?
            → (reply to Jos) there is motivation to work on it, implementation could be time-critical
      8. Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot
        → (reply to Jos) Nick & Tilmann should say something about that point
  • optional: 10 min reflection in Nathalie’s faciliation [E]

    • another time
    • there will be the written feedback
  • move on to money circle! :euro: :dollar: :pound:

    • start today but continue next time

    • how much do we want to write down in the minutes?

      • personal preference
      • check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
    • round reflection on categories and questions

      • which category you 'd place yourself in

      • Vas: volunteer contributor (but committed), income from uni, funded and doing research in karrot, no additional money from karrot, one wish would be to keep a small amount of money aside e.g. for a karrot meeting. Receives 1200£ as a stipend, some months 2 rents in athens and uk, not stuff member so not in a pension scheme, unemployed in greece meaning has to pay for health expenses, a loan of 10,000 euros to renovate a countryside house inherited by grandma, shares resources with partner that her job is going shit, most money spent on food, gardening and side-projects

      • Bruno: commited contributor, would be nice if karrot would help to cover expenses, expenses around food and rent, basic bills, travels, not a must, contribution flowing up and down depending on the week, focus on long-term contribution, feels very much commitment, reflection about privileges, living in a welfare state, family has been able to help and has the option to do climbing courses or do swedish courses

      • Nathalie: ocassional contributor, shared economy with 4 others → savings got lower over time, questions of how to achieve a sustainable financial situation, future changes require a new orientation, move out from kanthaus where rent and food are not a cost → health insurance as ongoing cost, get some money out of sociocracy possibly, be happy to get a little bit of money, need to find my karrot projects so this middle thing is quite fitting

    • what’s the current balance, how long would it last

    • how we organize ‘money contributions’

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Vas will reorganize the karrot days pad (Vas)
  • Ask Nick if he wants to share some input? (Vas)
  • E-mail to Jos after chatting with Nick (Vas)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno!
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-05-17 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: until 13.30 CEST
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • back-ups are reliably backing up now
        facilitation
    • next meeting:
      • General weekly 2022-05-24 12:00 CEST
      • Design Process Breaking the silo 2022-05-17 20:00 CEST

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Vas will reorganize the karrot days pad (Vas)
  • Ask Nick if he wants to share some input? (Vas)
    • can be done today
  • E-mail to Jos after chatting with Nick (Vas)
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • nlnet planning, finish with open questions from last week
  • deadline October 1th 2022
  • (Weekly call about Karrot development 2022 - #17 by Vasilis_Ntouros)
    • last week we went through all milestones

    • input needed on some points still

      1. Improve developer experience
      • 1 a) is merged, we can request the money
      • 1 b) c) and Optional: Nick started looked at this, seems achievable, good idea to talk to Tilmann, support each other
        → we are holding on to this
        → optional ones depend on nlnet also, putting those lower priority
        → get on with one of it now, others can be ongoing, nice independend tasks
      1. Roles feature
        Nathalie and Nick will have a chat on that topic
        → seems good from Nicks perspective
      2. Design Breaking the silo
        → seems good from Nicks perspective
      3. Agreements feature
      • implementation part? highest chance for outside devs as there already is the prototype
      • maybe break it down to smaller parts
      • new devs would still need Nicks help (what he offers)
        → holding on to it, check-in in a few weeks
      1. Refining places and activities feature
      • come up with ideas for design part
        → agreement to what was said last time, evaluate in a few months
      1. Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
      • a) in high priority
      • b) holding on, evaluate in a few months
      • depends on our flow of work, there is potential for a lot of productivity
      1. Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
        → agreement to what was said last time
        → put b) as “maybe”

      2. Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot

      • self contained tasks
      • feel good about those
        → we’re doing it!

in reply: have different categories for the topics
- high priority
- holding on, evaluate in a few months
be transparent in our communication, check-in with nlnet regular

other thoughts: what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer? → talk about it more in the next call

  • translation requests: korean (just now), and indonesian (october last year)

    • on transifex, a button clicked
    • no groups with this language
    • click “yes” - ok!
    • edit our description on the platform
    • karrot localization
  • open application on karrot group in spanish

    • person who wanted to join a spanish group
    • Nick replied in spanish
    • Bruno would write another reply and deny request
  • move on to money circle! :euro: :dollar: :pound:

    • how much do we want to write down in the minutes?
      • personal preference
      • check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
    • round reflection on categories and questions
    • what’s the current balance, how long would it last
    • how we organize ‘money contributions’
  • current balance: 6276,38 €

  • Nick: commited contributor, short-term: savings going down, long-term: achieve indepented financial situtation, context of whole economy, using holistic concept of value, difficult in capitalist surroundings, aiming for local income too at some point

Reflections:

  • tension between spending karrot money too fast and supporting people long-term
  • critical about always seeking for money
  • finding the right balance
  • karrot is growing up a bit, plug more into the flow of our lived lives, keep coherent and consistend within that
  • money forces a certain way of operating
  • idea from last money calls: distribute money in a way, so it would last 3 years
    • with complete nlnet funding it would be around 730€/month total
    • maybe rather take 2 years as a reference
    • enough time to look for another source of money
    • include this guideline in money policy?
  • current bank balance for 2 years: 260€/month
  • current bank balance + nlnet funding (complete): 1095€/month
  • current bank balance + nlnet funding (1/2): 678€/month
  • long-term strategy for karrot: a discussion for the future!
  • a bit of talk about funding and/or crowdfunding, hybrid model, keeping things independent
  • how do we come to a proposal with numbers?
    • go with monthly reference
    • karrot itself wanting some money (collective expense)
    • reserve amount for future contributors?
    • shorten terms for money calls
    • have the next money call in 3 months, even before if there is the need (e.g. for Tilmann to join)
    • talk about it next time and come up with numbers!
    • agreed on each others level of contribution :slight_smile:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
  • Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
  • Bruno checks with Vas and they write the reply to Jos
  • Topic for next call: what are the condidtions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer?
  • update description on transifex [Bruno]
  • write reply to application in spanish [Bruno]
  • talk about numbers next time [all]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: leave it open for now
  • checkout

Date: 2022-05-24 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: all
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: until 12.50 CEST
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
  • Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
    • in the near future
  • Bruno checks with Vas and they write the reply to Jos
    • new action item
  • Topic for next call: what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer?
  • update description on transifex [Bruno] - check
  • write reply to application in spanish [Bruno] - check
  • talk about numbers next time [all]
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • money circle: define money amounts
    • 1095€/month for 2 years as a reference (see last time minutes)
    • Nathalie: thought a lot about the 15/hour reference, would like to dedicate 5 hours/week, skeptical about this way of thinking
      • would like 300€/month
    • Bruno: continuous dedication to Karrot with ups and downs
      • would like 200€/month
    • Bruno and Nathalie still feel flexible with the amount
    • re-evaluate on next money circle in approximately 3 months
  • what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
    • more co-working sessions are more motivating
    • checking in with each other more often
      • could be scheduled, doesn’t have to be a call, short message
      • checking if help is needed
      • a “chatty” chat/place, different feel for different digital tools
      • trying to find a space in karrot, just writing in the general space? There is not so much activity atm
      • continue in next call
  • little chat about karrot days

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • double check reply to Jos Nlnet (Bruno)
  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: leave it open for now
  • checkout

Date: 2022-05-31 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Bruno and all
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1:30h
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
  • Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
    • in the near future
  • double check reply to Jos Nlnet (Bruno)
  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • approve/decide amounts for money circle

    • Nathalie 300€/month
    • Bruno 200€/month
    • Nick XXX€/month
    • re-evaluate in 3 months (end of august)
      → go ahead with it, Nick can jump in anytime
    • would we start using karrot money as we don’t have any NLnet money yet? → yes
    • also we can send in first milestone
    • money flow day? first tuesdays of the month (possibility to have it later too)
    • everyone is responsible for their own tranfer
    • we agree (until someone comes and disagrees)
    • starting next week!
  • reply to Jos

    • level of detail? don’t be too vague, tell about 2 levels of priority
    • be very clear
    • what we did last meetings
  • karrot days :slight_smile:

    • Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
    • liked idea to have a mix between weekdays/weekend
    • starting in the morning on first day is not really for working people
    • liked suggestions
    • how much can we do? that’s the core of the program
    • finding dates: we decide in the meeting here, or give 3-4 options most for the forum
    • dates: we define the 2-3 days, only some people visit the forum
    • sceptical about duration of the days, too long in general
    • likes “inspire, focus, reflect”
    • remains tricky how to communicate to groups, different ways to communicate
    • before august
    • idea: have it week-end only, don’t make it too long
    • one weekend in july!
    • have date by next meeting
    • have it 2 days, not 2 1/2
  • breaking the silo design process

    • not happening this evening, maybe another day this week
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?

    • co-working as an idea to get things going
    • co-working, when?

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • invite Nathalie to the Wise account (Bruno)
  • working on a draft to Jos (Bruno)
  • finally replying to Jos! (Vas)
  • check with Nick and maybe Tilmann about which dates would work for the karrot days (Nathalie)
  • send out a message to find a day of the week for co-working (Nathalie)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-06-07 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick, Vasilis

1. Opening

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
  • continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
    • co-working is nice progress for this
  • invite Nathalie to the Wise account (Bruno)
  • working on a draft to Jos (Bruno)
  • finally replying to Jos! (Vas)
    • and Jos replied, all good for now!
  • check with Nick and maybe Tilmann about which dates would work for the karrot days (Nathalie)
    • Tilmann not really in for that type of participation, more thoughts about code/cleanup/tech topics
    • Nick shared availability
  • send out a message to find a day of the week for co-working (Nathalie)
  • celebrations?

4. Discussion points

  • check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting

    • he wonders about 300/350/400, leaning on 400 euros
    • evaluate all together at the end of august
    • addresses more immediate financial needs
    • wondering how it will feel for Vasilis not receiving money
    • has been risk of outcome that Nick needs to get job and can’t work much on karrot, so good to support him
    • would be nice if amounts were more!
    • could have imagined higher number
    • will be good to have our financial evaluation in 3 months too, forecasting
    • money works best when it flows
    • also need some savings, or money for events, etc…
    • could consider going higher in the future
    • acountability follows money. crowdfunding preferable than funding
  • ‘money flow day’/ money distribution

    • first tuesday of the month to do transfer
    • everybody does their own transfer
    • considered private payments between people
    • if we need to shift from wise, there is this “elinor” thing in germany, or opencollective solution
  • decide on co-working time(s) [D]

    • Have a look at karrot co-working time! (CEST) - When2meet
    • Clarifying Questions?
    • Reactions:
      • Nick: one morning, one afternoon, more options to work in pairs, could add a bunch of options over the week and people check-in at the beginning of week which slots they will join
      • Vas: nice to get motivation that we’re all working on the same project, prefer morning times, would prefer long session (6 hours!), maybe sounds long, but also take a nap… knowing there is someone else there, idea of “karrot day” nice
      • Bruno: need to talk to Madde to co-ordinate with kids, mornings/lunchtimes generally better, at least 1h, at most 2h, nice to have a more fixed time for karrot work, end of month frans will start school so more time available, try a few weeks and re-evaluate
      • Nathalie: maybe we can go for wednesday now! 2h “core” slot where everyone is there would be nice, then flexibility elsewhere
    • Proposal:
      • 10-12 CEST wednesday, core co-working slot
      • optionally have more karrot work on wednesdays too
      • agreed!
    • Next steps
      • starting this week?
        • yes, although not everyone can make it
      • meet in jit.si room at the starting time?
      • do we want an activity for this?
        • of course! which place?
  • karrot days dates [D]

    • 16/17 july
    • agreed!
    • should do a “save the date” announcement somewhere, can organise that in co-working tomorrow
    • should we keep the same forum topic, or have a fresh one
      • can be decided in the co-working thing
    • also can revives daves designs, they are shared somewhere in karrot, and with the link to the design tool
  • feedback on a ongoing conflict resolution

    • still strong reactions to everybody being involved in it
      • blame directed towards person who created the issue in karrot
    • one suggestion: send out only the initial notification when conflict starts, no notifications to everybody about messages
      • only subscribe the initiator and “target” to the conversation
      • big improvement in terms of effort/impact
      • is there a risk for it being confined to the two people involved in it only
        • knowledge about it goes around, so other people would join
        • seems enough if everybody at least gets the notification
      • maybe only subscribe the editors
    • confusion about messages (e-mail notifications)
      • people confuse notifications with messages to them
    • we found out we don’t particularly know how it works
      • questions:
        • what does the “new conflict resolution process” notification setting do?
        • what is the default option for that notification is?
        • who is notified when the issue is created?
        • who is added to the conversation when an issue is created?
        • who can vote?
        • is there a notification before the end?
      • current scenario
      • how we would like it to be
    • maybe also add another notification when it’s near the end (1 day to go)
    • we also have scheduled a design process for improving the conflict resolution feature
      • do we include this as input to that, or go ahead with a small change that we seem to have loose consensus on it
    • ask community on forum about it
      • good idea to not open up the whole topic in that moment, knowing we have our design process and karrot days coming up to explore the wider topic
      • including brunos experience that people will find out about the conflict within the group
      • open minded that it might work diferently in other groups
    • summary:
      • we should get to know our own tools
      • we probably shouldn’t add people into the conversation automatically, other than the two people
      • there could be a notification a day (for example) before it ends
  • karrot days feedback [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • agreed for nick to receive 400EUR/month
  • answer the conflict resolution questions (nick/others?)
  • consult with karrot community on forum about proposed small changes (bruno)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nick
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-06-14 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: Bruno
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Nathalie, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1h30
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Vas bought a bicycle! \o/
    • next meeting: next week

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • karrot days feedback [E]
    1. decide on starting time: 11 CEST on saturday?
      • agreed
    2. feedback on graphics: see Karrot
      • add time zone
      • we like the second one, with the little things on it
      • should we specify more where online?
        • community.karrot.world as a banner and/or pinned post
      • make the link underlined, and not the sentence below
      • where is it going to be shared?
        • to different Karrot groups along with a short invitation
      • get the image on full resolution
    3. feedback on schedule
      • included on the pad below the schedule table
      • Nathalie will do some changes
      • think about who will facilitate the sessions
  • karrot days next steps?
    • invite ppl for the lightning talks
      • prepare the invitation and the list of “guest” on the co-working
    • organize/plan workshops
      • plan tools to be used (jitsi or BBB? excalidraw?)
    • do we manage to decide on schedule next week and start inviting people?
    • a banner on Karrot?
    • let’s create a Karrot group, both to organize sessions and to play with!
  • feedback from Nick about hacktioncamp event [R]
    • hacklab started in the 90s and activist oriented
    • rooted in alternative news media/indie media
    • haven’t done anything in 5 years and got together again with a mix of old and new people
    • about 14 people joined the Karrot playground group for this occasion
    • one person active in the Transition Movement, Karrot might be interesting to transition groups (he set up humhub for some groups)
    • XR and transition movement set up a nice suite of tools, but local groups usually do not use them. National networks might be a bit centralizing in this sense
      • a reflection (connected to breaking the silo): more important that groups connect and communicate among themselves rather than the national organization
    • Nick got motivated to present tech tools for community organizing, together with people from other towns
    • People from radar.squat.net travel around and do work on the project on site. That’s a nice idea for Karrot as well
    • Some questions concerning GDPR, data protection and the legal form of the project were raised
    • Conflict resolution and trust were interesting for people, quite unique
    • Two parts session: one presentation (background, values etc.) and one interactive testing Karrot in a group
  • some reflections on how to do outreach for Karrot…
  • hide email addresses? [E ->D?]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • continue planning and organizing Karrot days
    • write invitations text, etc. during co-working (Vas, Bruno)
    • change some things on schedule (Nathalie)
    • create Karrot group for Karrot Days (?)
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno
  • checkout

Date: 2022-06-21 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Vasilis & some help
Participants: Nathalie, Vasilis, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 1h30
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • new french groups
        • emailed to ask how to create a group, should make it more obvious how to do it!
    • next meeting:

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • continue planning and organizing Karrot days
    • write invitations text, etc. during co-working (Vas, Bruno, Nick)
    • change some things on schedule (Nathalie)
    • create Karrot group for Karrot Days (?)
      • Karrot - WIP: join & collaborate :slight_smile:
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
    • keep it for next week
  • celebrations

4. Discussion points

  • feedback from dave
    • Karrot
    • longer editing time [E]
      • currently 2 days, request to be forever, or some limit?
      • unclear exactly what the case it is for
      • how does it relate to deleting messages (which is not possible right now)
      • should edits and deletes keep all old versions for accountability? should everyone in the group be able to access the history of the messages
      • how do people even know/find out that there is a 2 day limit? so, having a manual, or documentation would be nice here :slight_smile:
        • an interactive tutorial within karrot could be nice :slight_smile:
    • google calendar compatible ical feed [D]
    • a view of past activites that are easy to duplicate (copy and edit) [E]
      • how does it relate to the history? could it be presented in that view?
      • accessing the conversation is important
      • if past activities are more visible, it perhaps further increases the gap between visible and invisible work
  • karrot days
    • announcement banner inside karrot [E → D?]
    • invite ppl for the lightning talks
    • work on the ‘workshops’ (let’s plan on that)
      • looks nice!
      • put your names down for facilitation
      • keep a list of people/ groups we invite in the pad
    • tools
      • try BBB on the next meeting
  • e-mails
    • do we have a karrot-mail/ inbox?
    • foodsaving inbox, e-mails get redirected to forum
    • people usually don’t send e-mails to karrot
    • often related to foodsharing international
    • include nathalie to forum
    • also some spam

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
  • Vasilis will prod Dave to see what the editing messages point is about
  • send out BBB link for next meeting [Nathalie]
  • work on description wednesday and put it on the forum [Nathalie, Bruno]
  • add Nathalie to forum’s e-mail

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
  • checkout

Date: 2022-06-28 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Bruno
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Vasilis, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
    • next meeting: design process: this evening, karrot call: next week

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
  • send out BBB link for next meeting [Nathalie]
  • work on description wednesday and put it on the forum [Nathalie, Bruno]
  • add Nathalie to forum’s e-mail
  • celebrations
    • karrot days group filled with life, activities are up
    • we have a karrot days image! see Ufile.io - 1655975000 or here
    • ics with token auth, it will probably make it possible to import to google calender, and make it easier to use in general

4. Discussion points

  • General Info post on Karrot days [D]
    • see Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
    • any comments/ additions?
      • should people register and if not, how much do we want to encourage them? Round:
        • strenghen the need to register
        • not make it mandatory, but explain why it’s good to join the Karrot group. Suggestion: add more info about the Karrot days group
        • make it clear that it’s not mandatory, to make it feel more open
        • agrees not mandatory and to make it more persuasive to join the group
      • Agreed upon: “We encourage you to join Karrot days 2022 group where we will co-ordinate the event and hang out, but you can also just show up to a session”
    • share the image! In the banner at the forum? Yes!
    • Karrot banner: merged on dev.karrot.world
      • gets it from a post on a forum thread
      • it will get deployed soon, together with the Quasar update, which might bring some issues
      • get the forum thread ready and then publish
        • ability to post limited to Karrot contributors only
  • manual, write-up, documentation [E]
    • thoughts, ideas, how can this look like?
    • what needs to be done to fulfill NLnet tasks (roles, agreement feature)
    • different types of documents
    • documentation for users not in NLnet
    • screen casts were started
    • documentation of e.g. agreemetns feature is different than manual
      • for roles feature there is a lot in the forum
    • what’s the audience?
    • where should it be published? form? tone?
    • e.g. how does the trust system work - no place to look it up
      • more clarity
    • key audience: karrot contributors
    • wider discource, make connection with other projects
    • manual different than documentation
      • doc: how do we design the feature, how did we do that…
      • worth sharing
      • manual: keeping up what Tais started doing, could be videos
      • NLnet only asks for documentation, not creating a manual
    • user manual/ guidance
      • would be nice to have
      • lot of basic things
      • ‘how to get to the wall’
      • guide needs to be inside karrot
      • not only in english
      • interactive type guide
        • topic based
        • video in it
    • NLnet things could be changed, fit it in
    • align with own motivation
    • there is already a help section on the trust system
    • expore more maybe in co-working
  • discuss/decide improvement notifications conflict resolution for next weekly call [E → D?]
    • proposal in: Conflict resolution with possibility to remove user from group - #40 by bruno
    • reactions
      • add another sub-item: automatically add me to the conversations in new conflict resolution proces
      • default: “New conflict resolution process checked”, but sub-item not checked
      • Bruno proposes to have the option in the conflict resolution chat
      • a bit of trying out in the karrot feedback team
      • we found out that we cannot opt out entirely of the conversation
      • not sure it should be off by default, especially in cases one is involved or would like to participate
      • would you get automatically subscribed if you write on the conversation? (default behavior on Karrot now is yes)
      • conflict resolution in general is an important part of Karrot
      • likes the idea of not everyone getting subscribed, especially if the group is big
      • confusion between subscribing and actually participating in the conversation
      • what about when there is a group of people responsible for conflict and mediation?
      • also a feeling of being overwhelmed by the number of people in the discussion (the little faces on it)
      • keep the proposal of leaving it off by default and consistent with Karrot’s notification system
      • new proposal from forum
        • we agreed to that!
  • review of BBB for karrot days [E]
    • try it out for this evening’s session?
  • NLnet updates?
    • ask for money

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Vasilis will prod Dave to see what the editing messages point is about (Vasilis)
  • Request $ Nlnet (Nick)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: The Vasilitator
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-07-05 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: The Vasilitator
Minutes: all
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Katie, Bruno, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1:30h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • frans first bike ride!
    • next meeting: 2022-07-05 12:00 (UTC+2)

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Vasilis will prod Dave to see what the editing messages point is about (Vasilis)
  • nlnet payment requested :slight_smile:
  • failed deployment
  • disrupt.org funding thing
    • expecting a connecting e-mail

4. Discussion points

  • Katie update from world of academia
    • journal paper: stock foodsharing group sumbitted as a paper…governance things there, balance of structure → governance models paper, 4th paper, the smart fridge, run a workshop on that ‘smart’ style fridge, conceptualize a smart fridge, multidisciplinary workshop,
    • community organising with various levels of participation, human write-up ← casual article/blogspost. It can be a summary of it, scaling out rather than up, breaking the silo and Katie’s paper/work.
  • Karrot days updates - Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
    • video conference tool?
      • bbb
      • break out rooms
      • upload slides easily
      • link: Karrot
      • excalidraw is a good complement
      • consented to bbb, technical intro in co-working session tomorrow
      • nathalie will check with chandi/matthias as we plan to use the living utopia server
    • planning sessions
      • nick & vas meet tonight and talk about breaking the silo session
      • bruno will be informed
      • slow tuesday next week again
    • invitations to non-karrot ppl?
      • fediverse?
      • adjacent communities we know and are connected to?
      • nathalie will see where to advertise it within foodsharing
    • updates from the invitation sent around
    • banner?
      • forum post
      • karrot ← needs some work
    • update info in karrot days group
  • money flow
    • a round in which one of us express how it felt to get the money contribution
  • nlnet milestones follow-up
    • general follow up. where we at? after the karrot days
  • editing wars, trust issues and group splitting

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • update karrot post and add the link to the meeting bbb room (Nathalie)
  • announce Karrot Days on the fediverse (Bruno)
  • reach B. from the brussels group (Nick)
  • write to Efa (Nathalie)
  • work on the banner for karrot (Nick will try, no promises though)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week:
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-07-12 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Bruno, Vasilis, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1:30h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Bruno: cherry tomatoes are growing!
      • Nick: beautiful plants in community garden & food-saved chicken
    • next meeting:
      • co-working on wednesday
      • late night call moved to thursday: 2022-07-14 20:00 (UTC+2)
      • Karrot Days! 16th/17th
      • regular meeting next tuesday

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • update karrot post and add the link to the meeting bbb room (Nathalie)
    • it’s in there
  • announce Karrot Days on the fediverse (Bruno)
    • Bruno facing log-in issues
  • reach B. from the brussels group (Nick)
    • nothing back, but e-mail sent
  • write to Efa (Nathalie)
    • got a nice reply
  • work on the banner for karrot (Nick will try, no promises though)
    • great! juhuuuuuu
    • looks good on mobile too
    • at least one application because of that!
  • celebrations
    • more people in Karrot group!
    • how does Karrot actually work? (nobody here seems to know)

4. Discussion points

  • NLnet money came in?

  • (from last meeting) editing wars, trust issues and group splitting

    • do votes from deleted users still count?
      • or from people leaving the group (when the process is still running)?
    • opinion from discussions: no, they shouldn’t
    • in current implementation they’re counted
    • https://github.com/karrot-dev/karrot-frontend/issues/2507
    • what happens to the conflict resolution when someone leaves?
      • it stops when you’re the subject
        • information about it on the vote tab
      • it continues when you’ve been the person starting it
    • no limit in parallel conflict resolution processes
    • knowing who is in another group?
      • not being in both groups after a split-up
      • actually you can see it on the members profil
        • let’s you see common groups and other groups
        • it shouldn’t be so visible
        • it is useful sometimes in ‘networks’
        • more options in user’s profile in the future?
    • culture of silence, people not speaking up
      • power positions in group
      • approving conflict resolution feature having this in mind
      • the more people speak up, the more comes to the surface
      • sensitive issues
      • empower people to raise a flag
      • problems need to be addressed, they come out sonner or later
      • building trust to avoid conflicts <–> dealing with conflicts when they happen (because they will)
      • ‘how did we get so far on this’
      • how to identify conflicts in a group
      • supporting groups for good governance, e.g. agreements feature
      • cases when it’s a distaster, abuses - ‘toxic bomb’ in a group
      • Karrot team mostly separated from groups
        • makes it easier to talk about this critical topics
        • only Bruno is involved in very active local group which uses Karrot
        • more people with their own experiences would be great
      • psychological effects of self-organising
        • would be an interesting study
      • so important to (re)learn a loving way of organising (!!!) <3
      • ‘what if’ scenarios
        • we could talk through them
        • what are the scenarios?
  • ‘pick facilitator for next week’ move from Closing section to Opening? [Nathalie]

    • in the opening? yes
    • we try it out
  • Karrot Days

    • updating activity descriptions with full text?
      • proposal: faciliators do it for their session
      • Nicks apple sounds good, the proposal too
    • invitations to be sent out?
      • fediverse post uselful
        • invite bonfire
        • neighbs app (vas)
        • l200 zurich (vas)
        • ‘every seed of connection is nice’
      • we did some already
    • add some teasers for the sessions on the Karrot group?
      - ‘momentum building’
      - post on karrot group?
      - msg on the Karrot group wall @mentions

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
  • add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
  • write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
  • invitations to groups/communities [all]
  • teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno then! but…I am travelling i cannot do it…so…Nick it is!
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

Date: 2022-07-19 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Vasilis, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Nathalie away next week until wednesday (away from 21th to 27th)
    • next meeting: next week tuesday as usual
      • slow tuesday, no nick, but vas checks with bruno
      • coworking tomorrow

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
  • add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
  • write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
  • invitations to groups/communities [all]
  • teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)

4. Discussion points

  • how to evaluate karrot days [E]

    • maybe a bit of meta reflection + evaluation of karrot days itself
    • vas:
      • avoiding giving a number out of 10
      • it was great! didn’t expect having 10 people in a session for example, exceeded expectations, people who joined seemed very into it
      • a bit of disappointment that more people from the lightning talks didn’t participate in later sessions
      • maybe some people just wanted to jump in to give presentation then leave, hoped for more participation
      • would be nice to write something, like a blog post, or article, if somebody has the motivation, could go beyond a forum post, e.g. a news article, something can share with other alternative media, to report on process, a bit beyond karrot days, how we did it, how it was. also connected with the nlnet milestones, how different groups on karrot are using karrot, bringing it together. can share it with people and with nlnet.
      • “pestering people to come”, not very joyful/intuitive, but also worth doing it, being a prick for a while… maybe just because it’s the first time?
      • overlapping circles, karrot team, and groups that use karrot. not just us that have to reach out, just us accountable to them, but also both ways around. have to build the relationship, maybe pestering is worth doing. maybe should be more shared “responsibility”, not just karrot team. giving more responsibility to people who use software.
      • maybe rather than responsibility, it’s a sense of interdependence, from garden/CSA metaphor, have some people doing the gardening, since we’re enjoy beauty of garden, nice to help out once in a while
    • nathalie:
      • also had it in mind to write up a summary, was thinking of a forum post, other ideas are nice, but also bigger
      • forum post can include screenshots/pictures, to give a feeling, and link the pads with notes
      • also for us to have all information in one place, evaluation slides, etc. a place to find all the information
      • also being aware that karrot days group will be gone at some point unless we keep it alive (ok if we let it compost over time)! would be nice to have a closing post on there, can be casual
      • a bit confused on how to evaluate, don’t see so much follow-up evaluation, no ideas for a bigger evaluation process
      • was a really nice way to engage with the community, gave a sense of belonging, that they are connected through karrot, as have felt that it’s something that karrot is not providing, compared to foodsharing.de (which has an organisation), so cool to not be part of an organisation but see the connections and build on this, some groups more than others want to belong to karrot (as a community)
      • it’s quite some work, prompting people, etc. thinking wouldn’t personally just turn up to event from clicking on a link. personal invites make a huge difference. doesn’t Just Happen.
      • wondering about level of work compared to the number of people coming, put quite a lot of working into session, maybe too much for number of people attending, and maybe too stressed/professional, and couldn’t meet own expectations, wondering if too much for a small friendly group
      • felt very nice overall!
      • prompted a lot of thoughts and re-read some sociocracy stuff, some lingering questions around volunteers, and culture of allowing (fine for people to just use the software), emerging thoughts, not clear yet. would like to explore further with sociocracy people. don’t see every group taking responsibility, would be nice for more spaces where people from groups can be involved. could have a karrot group circle, and different models to ensure links.
      • also wondering why more people from the lightning talks stay, hard to make a session very appealing that is basically about connecting without a clear structure
      • wondering about open space session, maybe something clearer would help people to come, how much facilitation is needed? how to engage more with people?
      • thinking about future scenarios, do we want to repeat this kind of karrot days? different topic? more coding oriented? different style? in person?
    • nick:
      • how to evaluate (meta question), structured evaluation of previous things. A little bit of a structure (e.g. rose thorn, buds, open questions for the future), positive stuff + critical reflections. From unity days…cluster the two together → focus on future work. A more diffuse way might work as well
      • Direct evaluation: energy resourcing, felt motivated and energised afterwards, felt grounded, tanglible, rooted in experiences, there was a lot of alignment in general e.g. breaking the silo → can be on a tech way (federated protocols, dec tech) whereas breaking the silo can be more community centred, more social, less tech-centric (bolo-bolo thing might tie a lot)
        • evaluate how to move forward in general over the summer
      • writing an article for general consumption
      • a forum post that can be coherent, or dump enough (notes, links, writeups for the seesions, key takeaways). Those can be a nice base for writing an article
      • Interconnectedness between groups. Community cafe can be a way forward. Or pester sb monthy to partricipate in a ppt round
      • wider networking for Karrot itself: NVC stuff for example, what can we do to bring in ppl from other ‘ideas’. Network of communities of organizing. Ties in a a lot to what I have mind about bath. Resourcing the infrastructure. Resourcing: a festival, a community cafe vs isolating
      • what is the right number for a session? the example of the session Nick facilitated
      • in general I liked the number of ppl and not some random internet ppl to listen out of curiosity
      • emergent version: a space where ppl step in when they feel that they want to take on some responsibility. The see a a need and then ‘act’. More fluid structures.
  • form a ‘project circle’/‘helping circle’ for the conflict resolution design process? [E]

    • formalize/structure from the conflict resolution session for the design process
    • also a way to play with the circle structure, as a co-ordinating circle, and a temporary connected circle we give the authority to for this specific feature?
    • writing a little template so a group can act on it, e.g. “design the next conflict resolution feature”, and how the decision part is, give the power!
    • there were some discussion about power terms (e.g. leader), but maybe appoint someone here
    • could give Tomek a structure to act in, maybe Bruno/Vas to lead?
    • also seemed to happen a bit with the breaking the silo process
    • reporting back was kind of informal, could have more intentional reporting
      • Aim/expected outcome/mandate
      • Domain
      • Leader
      • Term/review date
      • A plan for membership in the circle
    • do we want to bring more intentionality to the structures?
    • Nick: bring more intentionality (YES), experiment stuff and evaluating, what would enable tomek for example to participate? There is some overlap with the design process itself which is a frame to bring in different input (ask the expert). Sociocracy by the book might not neccesarily adjust to this…reflection on the design sessions in general. What have worked? What we want to throw away. Things can surface out from a looking on session/document on design sessions. Trying to make a structured process is really hard to get this regular participation.
    • Vas: don’t have much to add, easier to work with people now we’ve since each others faces (people in groups), have established a relationship. a forum post is probably not enough. personal connection is important. might make sense to have more of a structured process, e.g. in a karrot group have a forum to be able to share with the karrot team? so having messages directly in the karrot team group from the groups… more direct means of communication. not sure if anything makes any sense :slight_smile:
    • Nathalie: would like to see this kind of structure, based on assumption that we have the decision power, and we give it somewhere, which is probably actually the reality. more generally the topic of formalization of structure. different of feedback and decision power. aim of project circle, e.g. “design next conflict resolution feature”, could be more explicit about using the design process.
    • Vas: from some chats with Bruno, somehow decided not to follow the same path we did for the agreements feature, to be a bit quicker, and “good enough for now”, so didn’t open up the process so much, and less reporting. also have to take into account nlnet thing. how to balance possible funding to get with how open/participatory we are. have to submit MVP for conflict resolution by october, so needs to be part of equation.
    • Nick: decision power: if there is noone to enact a decision there is no much point in making a decision. Motivation (mainly intrinsic) and materials/resoruces available. Grousp of ppl making decisions and plans but totally disconnected with the ability. Alignement needs to exist. Counter-part:Develp sth that is already designed and clearly described (e.g. Freiburg group).
    • permacutlure design: make clear the boundaries you are working within
    • Nathalie: within project circle, can consider what needs to be represented, e.g. a developer, to represent software perspective, how to create ideal circle.
    • Nick: see’s two levels of stuff we’re talking about, how to move forward with conflict resolution design process, and the wider topics of governance of karrot project, which deserves it’s own space
    • Nathalie: maybe some of the sociocratic structures are too rigid for how we’re organising right now, maybe worth bringing the clarity though to the first design process meeting, to frame it more clearly, which is less than the full structural version
    • Vas: since there is already a process in place, some work done on breaking the silo, some input on karrot days, tending to meet tuesday night for breaking the silo. new ideas for experimentations, e.g. creating a circle, might happen more intuitively, e.g. reach out to people next week, if they join, open up the discussion, and check in with existing ideas. so build on top of existing pieces.
    • Nathalie: a lot of personal ponderings about sociocracy stuff, maybe winter is a good time for wider organisational structure reflection
      bruno lurking and enjoying the notes
      hey bruno :slight_smile:
      hope you aall having fun!
  • NLnet money came in!

  • evaluate our nlnet milestones situation

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • ponder “helpdesk” and/or community cafe sessions further [Nick, Vasilis]
  • reach out to people from karrot days about conflict resolution process, tag them on karrot, or send them a personal message [Vasilis]
  • karrot days next steps
    • what to do with the karrot days group
      • write a message on it! [Nathalie]
    • collecting the resources in a forum post [Vasilis, Nathalie…]
    • writing an article for general audience [Vasilis,…Nick interested in in happening and wondering how to support it :)]
  • background ponderings about karrot organisation structures, maybe to open up more in the winter after this season of work [anyone]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno (as punishment for bailing on us this meeting)m
  • checkout

Date: 2022-08-02 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Vas, Dave

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
    • next meeting: design meeting this evening

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • ponder “helpdesk” and/or community cafe sessions further [Nick, Vasilis]
    • something about history? and changing activity series? no view of activity history
  • reach out to people from karrot days about conflict resolution process, tag them on karrot, or send them a personal message [Vasilis]
    • maybe something for slow tuesday or co-working session
    • maybe shift co-working to thursday?
    • include Karolina
  • karrot days next steps
    • what to do with the karrot days group
      • write a message on it! [Nathalie]
    • collecting the resources in a forum post [Vasilis, Nathalie…]
    • writing an article for general audience [Vasilis,…Nick interested in in happening and wondering how to support it :)]
      • in progress :slight_smile:
  • background ponderings about karrot organisation structures, maybe to open up more in the winter after this season of work [anyone]

4. Discussion points

  • community cafe + banners
    • per-group banners could be nice / or pinned messages
    • could work like discourse → make any wall message into a banner
  • welcome dave
  • evaluate our nlnet milestones situation
    • Nlnet responsiblities
    • would love to not have deadline
    • we don’t need to fulfill everything
    • 1st October deadline
    • so two months!
    • we have other things in our life too…
    • for “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” we could come together and co-work together to make a manual
      • so maybe a first opening session to map the different ways contributors can join karrot
      • next co-working session we can do that
    • breaking the silo, getting close to deciding for next iteration of feature
      • maybe this week/next possible?
      • maybe finish idea of it this evening or next week…
    • “Refine display of places”
      • bruno, motivated to do some sketches, then get together for a session on that
    • “conflict resolution feature”
      • two aspects, improvement of existing one, without big changes
      • then another part of adding features to it
      • maybe in scope, notification system, voting method… a softer sanction
    • “Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot”
      • possibly see if somebody from co-op cloud ecosystem would be up for doing it?
    • maybe a call with Jos, with some tips?
    • onboarding new developers?
      • can be hard! and take time
      • maybe there are other developers from the past?
  • our design sessions / breaking the silo
    • public activities + share button (info + link)
    • signing up publically is a bunch more work, so can we avoid that for now? MVP…
      • … write a message?
  • stale issues on Github: Issues · karrot-dev/karrot-frontend · GitHub
  • intro to penpot design tool?
    • this evening
    • would be nice to have a design library for karrot
  • creating more intentional space for emotional/existential aspect of life?

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
  • schedule work on “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” to co-working session on the 10th of August
  • email Jos [Nick]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • pick facilitator for next week: Nick
  • checkout

Date: 2022-08-09 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Bruno, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance
    • duration: check-in after 1h, 2h max
    • minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
    • information: any announcements?
      • Vasilis got a flat tire
    • next meeting:
      • design meeting this evening (8pm central europe)
      • co-working tomorrow as usual
    • pick facilitator for next week*: (* a few meetings ago we decided to try and do this in the opening section)
      • Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes

  • 5 min
  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
  • schedule work on “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” to co-working session on the 10th of August, send reminder [Bruno]
  • email Jos [Nick]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

4. Discussion points

  • debrief server failure [R]
    • Sorry for the Karrot outage today (2022-08-06) 😭
    • one disk was broken but we don’t know for how long, Tilmann found out when he tried to reboot
    • took some time to find that out after it could not boot
    • a lot of organisational legacy stuff, back from Foodsharing days
    • got assistance from the provider Manitu and they were really nice in their support
      • there will probably be some costs (support + disk replacement?)
    • good to have at some point in the future our own server
    • Nick and Tilmann had to juggle a bit with their own plans, but it felt like a nice team work
    • it was a nice opportunity to make it human and not (work/service-like) professional to Karrot users
    • stressful situation, especially when it’s still not diagnosed
    • brings up the question of responsibility and vulnerability: if Tilmann and Nick were completely unavailable, would other people step up to fix it?
    • could other people in the team have been more supportive?
      • since it’s a very technical issue, not much in this sense, but not making it very serious and stressful helped
      • could we set up some kind of emergency routine?
  • update prototype testing [R]
    • testing with Daniel from Luxembourg yesterday
    • good insight, with ideas to fix some things
      • location: at the moment we create activities as part of a place, that may or may not have a location, and might be nice to be able to set a location directly for an activity
      • suggestion is that the email address should be verified (for signing up)
      • discussion around the chat, when could you join the chat? verify email? join chat before signing up?
        • if you want to ask a bit more about it, how would that work?
      • public activities being visible during the application process
        • e.g. introduction meetings to support onboarding processes
      • might be a view on the group preview page to see the public activities
      • some would be nicer to have as private links, rather than listed on the group preview page
      • might be able to facilitate better intergroup exchange, e.g. can click on another group and see what they’re up to
      • … and some notes to evaluate further
    • prototype itself had some more superficial issues, but didn’t affect the idea itself
    • testing with Dave tonight
    • do 1 or 2 more, but not a lot, and have it done :slight_smile:
      • also had an idea to test with non-karrot users
    • for the milestone?
      • going through notes and memories for this breaking the silo design process, and write a short friendly text/summary, and put on the blog…
    • nice continuing evolution of design process, with penpot tool, etc… hopefully can empower more people to lead these processes to evolve new ideas within karrot
  • money flow [R]
    • just making sure we did it all
    • end of august plan another money circle
      • look at who is receiving money and how much, and how people felt, check balance, new people, new wishes?
    • 1st november, review the whole agreement
    • activities updated on karrot
  • deadline (or other) stress [RE]
    • including nlnet stuff
    • nick: little pa"nick"! state (Nick) the amount of stuff and duration (1st of Oct) feel overwhelmed, ‘life struggles’ as well, resynchornize my brain with the state of reality
    • nat: totally relate, wasnt part of this agreement, I feel like extra (a bit), limited to the non-tech things, its good if some money come in but I m not super dependent on it, reconsider our relation with the funding
    • vas: also part of phd research, get pressure from supervisors to write, end of sept to write something for a conference, want to prioritise nlnet milestones, important the milestones are done to some extent, contributing to more than karrot, but personal lives of contributors, milestones signed up to are doable
    • bruno: thought a little already, felt a little pressure, really need to be more disciplined and mange time better, hopefully will manage to do them all, ambiguous feeling, a bit more stress, don’t like deadlines, but also a little pressure can be good, sometimes people perform better under pressure, giving structure/motivation, gives him a little more focus, trying to get balance, can relate to nicks feelings, reflections on sense of obligations, nlnet maybe used to projects like ours, if we have good communication should be no problem, are the obligation feelings about seeking validation from figures of authority? also pressure from financial aspects?
    • nathalie: nice to have a goal, giving some structure, low motivation so good parts of pressure, ideal would be if something is only for the money, not wanting that, but clashes with reality… leads to having no money. maybe we should say no to something in the milestones… not end up with a big crush in last week of september
    • vas: agree with nathalie, if we can decide in the next days that something isn’t happening, can remove some pressure? reflecting on relationships with funding institution, doesn’t currently feel like pressure from them, liked the approach to not be accountable to external orgs, but to the community (which would be totally different funding concept, e.g. crowdfunding), real-life is maybe a combination… was still good move to apply to it
    • bruno: I agree… continuous evaluation of what we’re going to make or scrap, do what we can do :slight_smile: maybe crowdfunding future is good…
    • nathalie: in context of karrot days, was it a distraction from the milestones?
  • update on data layer stuff [R]
  • GitHub issues
    • housekeeping stuff
    • some have been marked as stale, would like to check with others if they are really relevant
    • would be nice to have a clearer understanding of how to manage the issues and how to assess their relevance
    • maybe on another occasion, meeting, or co-working could evaluate them
    • we used to have roadmap meetings to organise them
    • maybe we can make some more specific tasks about how to go through the list
    • could be postponed until after nlnet deadline, maybe a good time to reflect how to do our own milestones

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • evaluate milestones in two weeks [all]
  • contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
  • email Jos [Nick]
  • see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min

  • checkout