Weekly call about Karrot development 2020

Meetings
34

Ping @ConexionUtopia - we started the call already, so join if you’re able to! → Jitsi Meet

35

Date: 2020-08-16 17:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina, Bruno, Fausto

1. Agenda

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • co-working on Thursday 3 pm, and potentially more spontaneous dates
  • everybody go through previous roadmap meeting: Roadmap meeting

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-08-23 11:00 (UTC+2), followed by roadmap
Next facilitator: Bruno
Where: Jitsi Meet

36

Date: 2020-08-23 17:00 (UTC+2), followed by roadmap
Facilitator: Bruno
Participants: Bruno, Janina, Tilmann, Nick

1. Agenda

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • Plan Metagov seminar Tuesday evening on/after 7pm
  • Quick planning online on a pad about the Foodsharing governance call

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-08-30 11:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet

37

Date: 2020-08-30 11:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Tilmann, Janina, Nick, Bruno

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • production release!
    • image upload is live, Bruno immediately informed the bike kitchen people
    • they asked about the limits of picture size
    • Nick wants to improve that at some point because the square crop really doesn’t work for graphics with text and/or detailed information. This may take a while though.
  • PWA, offline features and quasar cli
    • Tilmann went on a bit of a journey:
    • first he wanted to build something that would let you open the camera from within the app to directly take a photo and not only have the option to choose one from the gallery
    • he found that it would be cool to progress in the direction of PWA instead of having an extra app, because than we could also use more things from libraries of the webapp
    • quasar cli bundles all the fancy features from the webapp
    • Bruno asks if having a PWA would make the app superfluous, Tilmann says yes
    • Nick points out that PWAs can’t go in the play store but TWAs can - it’s a different kind of wrapper, this time from google
    • is the app even used to much? Bruno has the impression that people use Karrot more in the browser anyways
  • iphone
    • the topic just came up when talking about the previous one
    • grafana shows that the most used os are iphone and android comined
    • Janina says that we should maybe finally ask in the community if someone wants to gift us their older iphone in case they plan on getting a new one so that we can do testing with it
    • Bruno thinks it’s a great idea even though he didn’t get any complainty anymore
    • Tilmann would just hope that safari improves and that all the iphone problems go away magically because he’s really tired of fixing frontend bugs
  • playground and signing up
    • people are often confused to end up in the playground group after signing up, Bruno had recent examples again
    • the plan is to make playground a closed group, there are already prs in the pipeline
    • newly signed up users would then not be added to the playground group anymore but directed to the group gallery
    • it would be cool to guide them more to groups which might be interesting to them, maybe based of geolocation?
    • the tab in which the signup happens often already knows the group people want to apply to, but after signup a new tab opens and that doesn’t have the information anymore - this might be the main flaw in the signup flow
    • Tilmann suggests that it might be time for some kind of backend store
    • Nick likes the idea of using geolocation to show likely relevant groups more prominently
    • sorting in the group gallery divided in the two categories ‘nearby’ and ‘rest of the world’
  • NordiCHI
  • foodsharing call
    • next Thursday at 2 pm in BBB
  • check-out
  • payday call!

2. Actions/Outcomes

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-09-06 11:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: ?
Where: Jitsi Meet

38

Date: 2020-09-06 11:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Tilmann, Janina, Bruno, Nick

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • Tilmann’s newest thing: PWA features
    • Switch to Quasar App by tiltec · Pull Request #2179 · yunity/karrot-frontend · GitHub
    • pr should be ready but was not properly tested yet
    • ‘add to home screen’ button is the biggest user-facing change
    • push should still work, Tilmann rewrote it a bit
    • the goal is to have the mobile website work in the same way the app does - just without the bugs
    • Nick wants to review in the next few days, if he doesn’t get to it it should be merged to master just like that
  • the other Karrot
  • Foodsharing groups in Sweden
    • other groups using places in more general purpose ways (meetings, drop-offs, fridge cleaning), like other groups have been doing
    • bought foodsharing.se! what to do with it? maybe run karrot on it and migrate all the swedish groups to it?
    • a simple info page seems a good idea for now
    • open questions: do we want to split the swedish groups by topic and have them on different domains? do we want to isolate sweden in the way that it’s on their own instance and not really connected to foodsharing groups in other countries?
  • More on governance
    • very nice call, but was expecting a few more groups to participate
    • was hopefully going to lead into design process
    • challenge to get people comitted, how to get people to participate in a whole design process then?
    • how to motivate more connections/exchanges between foodsharing groups? foodsharing.de groups have been talking about some of it!
    • possiblity to create “foodsharing sweden exchange” (for example)
    • but perhaps having more open/public communication outreach
    • within Gothenburg group, wondering how to avoid hierarchies, and maybe with more specific roles, working on defining store co-ordinator role but concerned how to avoid creating power roles, but important to create a contact person for the store, or guidance for doing pickups
    • moving forward with design process
      • keep it minimal
      • use forum for co-ordinating/running it
      • have perhaps 3 people in core?
      • allow others to participate more randomly
      • also ask the experts is good point for asking
  • NordiCHI submission
    • deadline got moved to the 8th
    • left to do: finish up the critical issues section and finalize tho whole bit
    • Nick is happy to do the final polishing and submission part
    • Janina and Bruno will have another look at the critical issues, Philip doesn’t have any time
  • check-out
  • payday call, second try?

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • Nick, Janina, and Bruno to complete NordiCHI submission
  • All: keep in mind progressing the design process for goverance (or other topics)
  • Nick to review Tilmanns PWA MR in the next few days

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-09-13 11:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: Tilmann
Where: Jitsi Meet

39

Date: 2020-09-13 11:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Bruno, Tilmann, Nick, Katie

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • submitted NordiCHI application
  • general Karrot direction
  • design process for governance features
    • anecdote from Gothenburg
  • check-out

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • co-working Tuesday 2 pm
  • merge some of the recent PRs

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-09-20 12:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: Bruno
Where: Jitsi Meet

40

Date: 2020-09-20 12:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Bruno
Participants: Bruno, Tilmann, Janina, Nick

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • NordiCHI new channel + money stuff
    • October 26th
    • we’re quite unclear exactly what is involved
    • fees are a big barrier to participation as we don’t have income
  • custom activity types, name for “pickup”, recap?
    • type names would not be translatable
    • issue of templates + existing groups
    • idea to keep translations for common names, when you create a group you can choose one of those “suggested” names, which then gets copied in as the name
    • idea to detirmine the language of the group (manually, by checking the wall, or automatically by looking at the most common language of the users in that group)
    • the concept is we’re relaxing the concept of all groups having a centralized concept of a “pickup”, but now we’re moving to custom names, so the complexity comes with the transition
    • idea to maintain a standard set of activity types in the translation system that can be used if they want, OR they can use a free text field for the type
    • lingering question on how to implement these predefined-types, just in translation files, or more deeply in code, or something, and how it relates to how the group templates would be defined
    • thinking of groups that might benefit from this work to get involved more, toy library would be a candidate, slowly moving towards possibly adopting an organising tool
    • existing uses for custom activities are meetings, distributing events
    • another idea, the predefined names are only used for the purpose of migrating existing groups, new groups would have to define them
  • production deployment
    • most of the special handling of the playground group removed
    • otherwise not many noticeable changes
    • hold off to fix small issue with app relating to migrating to quasar app
    • need a bit more testing of dev PWA app, in particular push notifications
  • TWA stuff
    • way from google to get the PWA into the play store to replace the cordova app
    • tool available for apk building (bubble wrap), but seems a bit heavy/confusing
    • the web part and app part need to declare things about how they relate to each other, so need to be built together (currently we build seperately), or somehow solve it otherwise
    • initial POC TWA was created, but still WIP FYI YMMV IIRC, (USB cable missing from SOFA)
    • we don’t currently have older android devices, but maybe some people around kanthaus do
    • tilmann has some motivation to continue on this!
    • some confusion around the connection between the web browser version, installed PWA, and TWA based on the PWA… some handling seems available if level-10 PWA master level is achieved
    • query about how google-dependent we become? some support from apple for PWAs
    • “pwabuilder” can make an xcode project, wondering if we can use this, then build the project in circleci? (as we got access to apple ci containers previously iirc)
  • disappearing messages Typed text disappear when reloading · Issue #2192 · yunity/karrot-frontend · GitHub
  • a couple of reflections about Philips paper
    • topic: people grow chili plants together, join a telegram group and start communicating
    • takeaway: creating this connection leads to a much wider interaction between the people involved, they start sharing other stuff and tips and form a bond which can lead to a major shift in society as a whole if done in many places
    • takeaway for karrot: how to lower the threshold for people to participate?
    • old tradeoff between common/widespread platforms (people already have them) and specialized platforms (much more refined features)
    • really motivated core-type people will go for the specialized thing, but how to lure in the more peripheral people who only want to participate casually? could a somewhat related telegram group help?
  • vague ponderings relating to the “one straw revolution” book I just read
  • check-out

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • Tilmann will continue with TWA

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-09-27 12:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: Nick
Where: Jitsi Meet

41

Date: 2020-09-27 12:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Katie, Tilmann

1. Agenda

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • define the scope of the design process on post at the community forum, channel on Rocket Chat. Meeting Thursday 1 Oct at 11 am

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-10-04 12:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: Tilmann
Where: Jitsi Meet

42

Date: 2020-10-04 12:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Tilmann, Bruno, Janina

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • governance call Governance Meeting Notes
    • Janina won’t join in because another weekly call would be too much for her. She would still be interested to follow the process occasionally.
  • what’s still to be done to get the release ready?
    • some more bugs to fix, especially in the app
    • Tilmann hopes to get around to it in the following days
  • More coworking?
    • Nick and Tais might arrive in Kanthaus middle of next week, then more co-working might be happening
  • Toy library in Gothenburg as potential new group
    • they are interested but also not decided
    • Bruno is lobbying hard…^^
    • so far he didn’t go into the anti-proprietary software topic but he probably will in the future if they want to go for facebook groups
    • small side discussion about ‘The social dilemma’ (summary: good documentary, but very American. Still worth showing/recommending to people who are not in the topic at all.)
  • Governance features vs. generalization
    • Tilmann points out that it’s a competition in terms of developer time
    • should be discussed in the group where more motivation lies
    • does it make sense to jump from topic to topic or is it better to stick to one?
    • personal ways of working differ, maybe both can be done - but then slower
    • it’s mostly about Nick since Tilmann can’t find the time to tackle big tasks right now
    • Bruno feels that the much more structured way of moving forward with the governance topic gives it a head-start
  • check-out

2. Actions/Outcomes

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-10-11 12:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: Bruno
Where: Jitsi Meet

43

Date: 2020-10-11 14:20 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Tilmann, Janina, Nick, and Taïs right at the end informally

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • pre-release fixes
    • push notifications - main topic remaining before doing next release
    • also some minor bug fixes that could be done, but optional
    • possibly release process itself needs fixes, as it will be the first with the new quasar app structure
  • community design process - governance topics
    • first call occured last Thursday, summary is: Stage 1 - Defining the Challenge
    • experts/people to ask include Janina, Nathalie, Anja - with lots of experiences across fs.de groups
    • confusing responsiblitiy with power has been a key topic in foodsharing.de groups
    • wondering about how to incoporate input from active groups that we don’t have so much communication with
    • … then some more chat about different groups who maybe aren’t so ideologically motivated, but use karrot as a tool
    • … then a bit further into topics about opening new jars of jam and about putting them in the fridge or not
    • (Janina wants to reassure all readers of this that the conversation did actually gently morph into that topic, not as a big jump)
  • mumblings about power and hierarchy
  • time for next call?
    • let’s try to establish 12!
  • check-out

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • unscheduled local co-working in Kanthaus
  • continue with fixing push

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-10-18 12:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: Nick
Where: Jitsi Meet

44

Date: 2020-10-18 12:00 (UTC+2)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Tilmann, Janina, Katie

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • feedback about governance community process
    • see Governance Meeting Notes - #4 by bruno
    • … and installed spacedeck! Spacedeck Open
    • inteviews
      • presenting what we’re doing so far, the process
      • present the long term goals, and maybe the map
      • capturing the ideas/insights
        • “How Might We?” questions
        • (described in google design sprint book)
      • some understanding of the context/categories of the people/groups we ask, established groups vs new groups, etc…
  • NordiCHI logistics/plans
    • Karrot Chat
    • Bruno and Nick got equipped with tickets, Philipp gets in via his institution
    • Katie and Janina would like to listen in, Katie will write to the organizers to see how that can work
  • activity types for existing groups?
    • see Custom activity and place types - #8 by nicksellen
    • initial idea to improve on:
      • foodsaving groups:
        • Pickup/Meeting/Task/Event?
        • Pickup/Meeting/DistributionEvent?
      • general groups: Meeting/Task/Event
      • bikekitchen groups: Meeting/Task/Event
      • idea to put a poll in the forum and ping the groups:
        • pick top 3 or 4
        • options:
          • Pickup
          • Meeting
          • Task
          • Event
          • Distribution
          • Sharing
          • Dropoff
          • Shift
        • vote for any (“approval vote”)
  • Problem of how to go about a pickup that requires people to go to two different places?
    • for now it’s probably best to simply create it as one pickup in one place and write a big comment
    • the other possibility would be to make two places and two pickups and then write a big comment that you should always sign up for both but that’s probably more complicated
    • in the future there could be events that are independent of locations, but that requires bigger refactoring and rearchitecturing
  • … been playing with frontend data stuff
    • Nick aiming to at least write up assessment of existing architecture
  • we did a release!
    • Notes: Karrot release updates - #5 by nicksellen
    • … and so far nobody complained, yay!
    • statistics page
      • missing explanation for left and left late
      • could include a link to a forum post to explain it and provide a place for discussion
      • could do with a name filter
      • is actually part of governance, as the idea is instead implementing complex rules we present information to be used in human processes
  • making places more friendly for discussion
    • more like a channel on slack/rocketchat
    • multiple channels?
    • how to make it easier to find important conversations
    • chat vs forums…
    • rocketchat has channels, discussions, threads, but generally is a bit confusing!
    • also relates to governance topics, as it’s where governance discussions happen, working groups…
    • maybe could be worth a whole community design process for it
    • balance of small fixes vs bigger questions
  • playground group is now closed
    • need to keep an eye on the applications for it
    • not sure whether people get removed from inactivity
  • question about who gets which notifications under which conditions for applications
    • seems to be designed for small groups to make sure no application gets forgotten, but for bigger groups it’s a bit weird if everyone gets notified by default
    • Bruno might write an issue
  • check-out

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • Write about interviews for the governance design process (Bruno)
  • Do some interviews with closer people if desired (Nick, anyone)
  • Review/discuss/merge custom activity types (Nick, Tilmann)
  • Maybe discuss frontend data management (Nick, Tilmann)

3. Next

Payday call! (Fac.: Tilmann)

Next meeting: 2020-10-25 12:00 (UTC+2)
Next facilitator: Bruno
Where: Jitsi Meet

45

Date: 2020-10-25 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Bruno
Participants: Bruno, Philip, Nick, Tilmann, Janina

1. Agenda

  • check-in
  • screencast
    • Tais is gonna resume working on it, yay!
    • Bruno’s only concern: How to record anything that won’t be outdated really quickly?
    • Nick proposes to write scripts that can easily be adapted and also turned into screencasts by other people
  • Custom activity types
  • governance design process updates
    • takes time to make good software. Topic is huge
    • connection with researchers, get input from other specialists, etc.
  • NordiCHI
  • check-out

2. Actions/Outcomes

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-11-01 12:00 (UTC+1) <— no more summer (time)! CEST → CET
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet

46

Date: 2020-11-01 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Janina, Taïs, Nick, Tilmann, Bruno, Katie

1. Agenda

  • checkin
  • how to feel inspired/motivated to work?
    • was a very clear gender split between who mentioned feeling bad for not doing enough stuff! (you can guess in which direction…)
    • not feeling bad for not doing enough stuff
    • hard to get started if it feels like it’s too big topic for a short time, leading to not opening chat/etc as it’ll lead to feeling bad
    • a lot of desire to work on karrot, even if lots of stuff going on, joining social bit is good for stimulating motivation, welcoming culture to not feel pressured makes it feel pleasant
    • how to motivate people without risking being pushy? asking people can be useful! but where to draw line
    • requests to look at a focused specific issue can help with the issue of topics being too big or overwhelming, clear tasks
    • nick tried mention little tasks tilmann might be able to do whilst baby sleeping (~2h)
    • sometimes having a smaller task leads to a big topic, hard to achieve anything
    • should be clear there is never a need to do the whole big thing
    • karrot months were great before for adding major features, focused time in person, were historically the times when major new features were added
    • hopefully the design process is something like that, but a spread out version
  • NordiCHI impressions
    • didn’t feel so productive, but not just because of conference
    • too structured and rushed, not enough space for free conversations in smaller groups
    • technical issues caused Bruno to have to leave
    • connected with interesting person who had some nice relevant research (asked for paper, and invited to meeting, they also joined karrot)
    • good thing is to create some specific actions from the conference
    • +1 for quite rushed
    • can have nice interesting discussions, but easy to not do something afterwards
    • +1 for the same nice interesting person :slight_smile: (Philip also contacted them I think)
    • person = Vasileios
    • connections with Oliver Bates, interested in getting back to food related projects
    • some focus more on for-profit co-operatives, which is a bit less aligned with us
    • +2 to overly structured and rushed! maybe would have read papers beforehand if knew that, also had to take notes…
    • confused what the aim was, concrete outcomes? (didn’t really happen) networking? (not enough time/space for that). clearer intentions would have helped. ended up not doing so much of either. felt a bit of waste of time, even though interesting.
    • hopefully inspired by us and more will come out of through contacts, hope! we’ll see
    • was a nice peaceful time with baby-boo
    • in academic world nothing is specific about networking, but everything is… social component not acknowleged enough
    • biggest debate was about when/where to spend to break :slight_smile: … maybe everything should have been the break
    • with in person conference, the social bit would have been much more valuable, coffee/dinner to go more into depth, hard to replicate in online setting
    • +1 to redicuoulous break time debate
    • curiosity about academic stuff
    • nice connection with academia <-> karrot <-> grassroots projects
    • feedback bit inside workshop didn’t work :frowning: … asking for feedback, but no space to give it!
    • maybe we can give some feedback?
    • found runup to the NordiCHI confusing, not quite aligned for non-academics
    • can we reuse the workshop paper for something? maybe Philip would develop it further into a paper (normal process is to start with workshop paper, get feedback then work it into a real one…)
    • Tilmann would put our workshop paper in forum, and link it on mastodon
    • idea to organise a workshop about foodsharing/saving specific, connected with ? <— I missed the name (link coming!) deadline in February (for proposing a workshop, thing itself in july or something)
    • CHI is so broad, hard to get proposal accepted
    • Communities and Technologies: https://2021.comtech.community/ (C&T’s 2021 theme “Wicked Problems in the Age of Tech”, invites participants to examine the positive and negative implications of new trends in Information and Communication Technologies (ICTs) impacting communities, civil society and the common good.)
  • governance process updates
    • almost done with stage 1! (define the challenge), should be done by next meeting
    • stage 2 is sketching/investigating solutions
    • feeling it is going really well! felt like it had opened up a lot, but came together last week
    • each done interviews, felt really productive
    • next part is merging the maps/challenges
    • interesting how “might it be” parts
    • opening it up to more people to get clear statements, and more concrete way forward
    • up to this point it’s been quite abstract, but from here should be more straightward for others to contribute
    • outcome of it should hopefully have a clear focus, but also some subsequent tasks we can focus on
  • screencast updates
    • Taïs has started on them! 2 of them are done, posting into Screencast discussion in rocketchat
    • happy for feedback on scripts + finished videos, feedback is most useful at script level before having made it
    • open for people writing scripts to be read out, quite important to make sure it’s how karrot actually works!
    • where to publish them? should be very user friendly (as target is people possibly daunted by computers), hopefully have a playlist, and be able to jump to specific sections of the video
    • nick was looking at youtube alternatives (e.g. peertube), nick asked, but not much yet Karrot: "We're making some tutorial videos for karrot, and…" - Fosstodon
    • maybe actually find a landing page one, or something directly integrated, should feel part of the platform… or community forum?
    • embeddable could be nice, so we can put it in various places?
    • idea about landing page video for more general context, more PR than tutorial video though, nice little drawings, etc…
    • important to get the videos online as soon as possible for feedback, just on community forum is fine for now
    • in Stockholm, new people come via facebook, would be nice to share with members
    • need to think about the different channels people arrive into karrot
    • new category in community forum for tutorial videos, one thread per video
    • how to get it into other languages? multiple levels of difficulties (whether karrot needs to be in the other language too, or if it’s a barrier), in Stockholm it’s a lot of international people, both maybe in Gothenburg more in Swedish
    • subtitle options? maybe support community to make translations
    • French people get very scared and need everything in French (oooh lala)
    • scripts could be uploaded as file to community forum, or in github? main goal is not too technical, just a way to few content clearly
    • maybe having the video project files themselves somewhere?
    • maybe someone wants their little face in the corner? more different faces would be nice! make it feel more accessible to participate
  • activity types updates
    • update Custom activity and place types - #10 by nicksellen
    • making it not possible to change types afterwards
    • frontend is still in review, mostly about translation topics, this change is also changing pickup → activity for the generic cases, it’s a time we can choose to simplify/rationalize the text, maybe people will be confused about the word “activity”
    • confusing to have “Activity” as a general type (although that’s only used for non-foodsaving groups, so maybe not needed to address now?), another name, maybe Bruno can suggest if needed, as bikekitchen is needed
    • changing “Activities” in the menu could be confusing, nick looking for feedback still, nick will reference it in the community forum for feedback there (see Support activity types by nicksellen · Pull Request #2207 · yunity/karrot-frontend · GitHub)
    • most/all of the notifications/emails should mention the type name
  • emphasise nearby groups
  • where will Nick and Taïs be (apparantly it’s relevant says Taïs)
  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • put our NordiCHI workshop paper online (Tilmann)
  • share the UX discussion points about activity types on chat/forum (Nick)
  • find video platform for screencast hosting (Nick/Taïs?)
  • following up with interesting people after NordiCHI (anyone!)

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-11-08 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Janina
Where: Jitsi Meet

1 Like
47

Date: 2020-11-08 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Janina
Participants: Katie, Nick, Tilmann, Janina, Vasileios

1. Agenda

  • checkin
  • talk to Vasileios
    • participant in OpenLab
    • 2nd year of PhD, interested in grassroots sharing economy initiatives that use physical spaces while using digital tools to facilitate that real world activity
    • conceptual approach in how things are designed
    • follows participatory action research, would like to also take part in a foodsharing initiative
    • started rural maker space in small village in greece: Tzoumakers in a nutshell – Τζουμέικερς
  • Community governance process
    • was skipped this week
    • rescheduled to Monday at 1 pm UTC+1
    • status: unified map, trying to focus on the area to find solutions for
    • it’s a stage in which it’s more easy for people to casually join
    • Vasileios is interested in joining the call
  • Screencast
    • a Stockholm person also wants to do something like that
    • Taïs’ scripts will appear at yunity/karrot-screencast-script · GitHub
    • coworking on this would be appreciated! Katie will drag the person into rocket chat.
    • still unclear where to actuall publish them
  • Custom activity types
    • basically done, maybe one more review session with Tilmann
    • more explanatory text is missing
  • Data management in frontend
    • seems confusing and unclear sometimes, rearchitecting the frontend data flow could be good
    • Nick is working on a proof of concept
    • the goal is to help us develop more effectively and to have everything more understandable to newcomers
  • New use case for Karrot
    • Kanthaus sleeping spot management
    • Janina created a place for this and then recurring pickups for each room
    • A room with a double bed would be represented as a pickup with two slots and the description showing the room’s name
    • Bruno thinks it’s an interesting use case and it makes him think about public places and activities
    • Nick would like us to have reasons to get into the user’s perspective more to find small bugs and such
  • New groups!
    • There’s 4 new groups which sound quite real :slight_smile:
    • Bruno will contact the Brazilians
  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

2. Actions/Outcomes

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-11-15 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Katie
Where: Jitsi Meet

48

Date: 2020-11-15 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Katie
Participants: Tilmann, Janina, Katie, Nick, Bruno

1. Agenda

  • checkin
  • Activity types update
    • we need a few more weeks to update the translations so maybe we should ping those resposnible ’
    • Conduct some more testing ourselves
    • Ready somewhere between one week and two weeks, can we get people to translate quicker?
  • Governance project check-in
    • began stage 2: sketch solutions
    • Working on ways to include group members
    • Develop an invitation to make it clear what will actually be involved
    • Share some concepts that could be developed/explored maybe even before thursday
    • Janina thinks the progress sounds great but does not have time to get involved right now
    • Choice to work with either one concrete idea or explore one of the open HMW questions
    • Work with problems that are close to reality such as the pickup dispute
    • Three golden rules of Karrot (based off foodsharing rules)
    • New perspective on how to approach governance: vision and values first, rules later. They should be connected
  • A bachelors project thesis for usability
    • Part of Katie’s PhD is supervising BA students, she’d like to offer them Karrot topics
    • Usability seems to be the most suitable topic and potentially would yield usable outcomes for us, too
    • Possible focus on Ostersund and Lund groups
  • Any other business
    • New conflict resolution in Luxemburg, a person being accused of doing too many pickups
    • She didn’t realise there was a conflict resolution against her, they had no rule about it so she didn’t realise she was doing anything wrong
    • A cooperation rather than competition
    • Solutions: more cooperations, less sign-up time, limit number of new food savers
    • If the food is saved but not shared - could be a use for the rule library
    • Issue of managing a common resource
    • Having some competition is inevitable
    • The evolution of the conflict resolution feature: One that is about a topic rather than a specific person
    • Collect different scenarios and develop around them, maybe even swap real-life scenarios between groups
  • Introductory pickups, suggested by Dan
    • Invite him to join the call in 2 weeks
    • Comment on his post and give him an invitation
    • Or ask him when he had the time and make a separate meeting
    • Sunday is easier to schedule Roadmap meeting in two weeks
  • Need to chose a facilitator for the Roadmap meeting, Nick and Bruno have volunteered.
  • First screencast is uploaded using peer tube :tada:
    • Introduction to Karrot
    • Bruno and Katie will show the video to other people and get reactions
    • Maybe get Swedish translations, do a voice-over based on the script
  • checkout

2. Actions/Outcomes

3. Next

Roadmap session!

Next meeting: 2020-11-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Bruno/Nick
Where: Jitsi Meet

1 Like
49

Date: 2020-11-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Tilmann, Janina, Katie, Nick, Bruno

1. Agenda

  • checkin
  • activity types
    • need to write up the forum here
    • What are activity types in Karrot?
    • not much translation arrived yet (except es/eo)
    • but maybe can deploy soon!
    • gather more group statistics to help us evaluate it? extend grafana view to see usage of other types
    • activity type editing is in progress! will be a while still though…
  • co-working sessions
    • possibly some fixed times?
    • thursday design process is already there, so another day
    • tuesday? 12 for bruno, 9+ for tilmann… leave it open a bit…
    • mumble? seems ok…
  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

2. Actions/Outcomes

3. Next

Roadmap session!

Next meeting: 2020-11-29 12:00 (UTC+1) (payday!)
Next facilitator: Tilmann
Where: Jitsi Meet

50

Date: 2020-11-29 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Tilmann
Notary: Nick
Participants: Bruno, Daniel, Tilmann, Nick

1. Agenda

  • checkin
  • trial pickup: Applicant trial pickup proposal
    • member → foodsaver need 3 trial pickups
    • using mattermost with synchornized channel names, a mess!
    • particularly complex for foodsavers who have to use both bits of software
    • was an idea to use the applicant chat, but idea to use newcomer status is better, as the newcomers can do other stuff too
    • idea to restrict only selective activities
    • “member” = “newcomer”, “foodsaver” = “trusted/editor”
    • currently, after they have done the 3 trial pickups, they apply to karrot and get accepted
    • Gothenburg do 2 trial pickups, and co-ordinate in the application chat with a welcoming team, takes some time (days) without an answer as needs to wait for people to find some time to bring a applicant along… nice to bring along 2 applicants to 1 trial pickup, but very hard this way…
    • also relates to public places maybe? (making it easier for people to join more open things, like events)
    • 3 trust carrots needed so far, or less for smaller groups
    • combination of trust system + number of trial pickups to upgrade?
    • goes into much wider topics of user levels and permissions, but quite complicated
    • how are trust carrots used in luxemboug currently? no special agreement, when people are motivated to create new places, they make an announcement to ask for more trust for them! is it misuse? maybe not!
    • trust is a very general term, rather than specific about doing something, maybe could have been rephrased, “approval”? maybe trust + context is more useful…
    • trust system + context is maybe even like a lightweight voting system
    • applicant → newcomer → trusted → (another level for editing)
    • maybe prompting users more to give trust in more places
    • if we use only trust system to get trusted then they might not have done trial pickups
    • how should trial pickups + trust interact?
    • maybe can actually leave trust out initially? and just do focus on the number of trial activities needed, set per group
    • for each activity be able to have another slider for how many trial pickups
    • maye trust system enhancements come later on reflection
    • maybe a new role to distinguish them from newcomer, and editor… trusted? editor is detirmined by trust system alone currently… maybe keeping these seprate is ok
    • so, feeling to keep trust + editor role seperate from trial activity + trusted activity role.
    • before people have done trial activities they would still be able to see all the discussions, is that ok?
    • continue this discussion/process on the forum, some sketches, etc… will likely schedule a follow-up call on there
  • ux problems, especially with the elderly
    • not a clear issue in mind right now
    • the videos help! they made one in luxembourghish
    • maybe some more potential for collaboration, co-operation, translations, subtitles, etc for the videos
  • update governance design process
  • next deployment?
    • “what are activity types?” post is written…
    • wait for translations tonight?
      • wondering if polish translations will come?
      • there are 2 or 3 polish speakers in kanthaus :slight_smile:
      • could also ping previous translators
      • what about french? for DLC groups? Daniel will announce it in Luxembourg group
      • maybe wait another week…
    • small bug with question mark helper, if you’re not on the page…
    • didn’t implement one for non-foodsaving groups, but it’s probably ok
  • data layer concept!
  • pick facilitator for next week
  • remind everyone it’s payday call after!
  • checkout

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • about trial pickups: Daniel will make some sketches to post on the forum, then another call in 10+ days

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-12-06 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Nick
Where: Jitsi Meet

51

Date: 2020-12-06 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Notary: anybody!
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Janina

1. Agenda

  • checkin
  • proposal for weekly rotation of handling incoming emails (inside community forum) (nick)
    • do something with each message
      • delete it (we get spam regularly)
      • reply to it (I guess it’s on the other person then…?)
      • pass responsiblity to someone else (wait till they accept it!)
    • this is basically the “bun protocol”, see Bun protocol
    • is weekly the right rotation frequency?
    • do we need a way to keep track of the responsiblity for a given message?
    • seems to have support for trying it out! and using the plugin
  • the random new groups (nick)
    • how do we know when we need the next step of making sure the new groups are legit?
      • how do we decide whether a groups is “legit”?
      • misunderstanding of what the software is is clear case
      • but just using it differently to our intention is less clear what we want
      • two basic cases?
        • people are confused about the software and creating groups
          • if it’s polluting the group gallery, it somehow needs to be dealt with
          • improve our communication and outreach mechanisms to help with that
          • Bruno applied to a few to see what they say, but no replies so far
          • current situation with Brazilian education groups, not so bad right now as they don’t appear on the map
          • in this case translating the landing page into Brazillian Portuguese would help
        • illegitimate cases
          • e.g. really bad shit totally against our values
          • need to work on this more broadly
          • developing clear code of conduct / terms of service / whatever
          • how to actually check? manual check?
    • what might be a next minimal feature for this?
      • maybe keep a bit of weekly meeting to discuss a little bit each time to discuss values/golden rules, and maybe in the governance design process
        • collect keywords? new ideas? small brainstorm
        • helps make a nice base to work from when time for more people to participate is available
        • having weekly gives us a bit of time to reflect in between (not a sprint!), allows background brain processing whilst washing the dishes (it could be when hanging the laundry)
        • proposal to assign a fixed agenda point
      • a karrot gathering in the summer!
      • no immediate need
  • Feedback on use of conflict resolution from Solikyl
    • two conflicts, one finished, one ongoing
    • some discussions occured about the feature itself, how it gets used in the group
      • first conflict was based on a phone call where they were talking past each other, some slight racist slur occured, so seems worth going into a process
      • second one, has a lot of support, but also a lot of opposing views. they were not comfortable with the conflict process being open to the whole group, even from a legal perspective
        • brought up by other people, perhaps it exposes the person too much, especially in bigger groups, they feel they’re being watched
        • they have a meeting, some notes to follow up with
        • some specific ideas to improve the conflict resolution feature
        • maybe more steps? like first involving just the two people? then adding more as needed… and maybe only go to voting when the first levels didn’t work…
        • toxic mindset to use feature for pointing fingers rather than constructive dialog and solutions, sad thing! … but how much is the software part of it?
        • foodsharing people had feared our karrot model would lead to it, too visible, too public, not protected enough (esp. of those falsely accused)
        • multiple level approach seems to have potential! message between two at first
        • finding people to mediate! (they need to trust them, feel comfortable, or they are some kind of authority)
          • people naturally contact some of the more “authorative seeming” people, the overwhelming them…
          • would be nice if we all had the energy for mediation, as it’s nesercery
        • previously they tried to encourage people to start resolution processes, but maybe got too much now!
        • so maybe a way forward is finding ways to distribute mediation amoungst the team, or support people to join/form a team that will be up for it
        • differentiating between two cases
          • mediation will be helpful
          • somebody did a bad thing and needs to punished by the rules!
        • foodsharing.de is discussing this too:
          • “request mediation” (for interpersonal conflicts)
          • “file a rule violation”
        • general issue is people in authory positions receive cries for help, especially when there is no other place for them to go to
    • idea: maybe a private forum category for being able to keep track of interesting things that are maybe not suitable for public viewing? (nick)
  • change of call time? (nick)
    • the food growing co-op have their weekly session right over the call (I know, right??!)
    • some desire for free sundays! time good, maybe saturday, or a weekday
    • a poll on the discourse forum with same time, but different days
  • karrot introduction for foodsharing.de devs (Janina)
    • explaining features and ideas
    • desire to find synergy between projects
      • like a karrot channel in the yunity slack (lol)
    • more about conceptual exchange, via talking!
    • maybe can be useful for a makerspace in leipzig!
      • he joined the playground
  • pick facilitator for next week
  • checkout

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • install the discourse assign plugin (nick)
  • we start the weekly rotation for incoming messages (all)
    • for now start collaboratively, and try assigning messages to ourselves
  • add a fixed agenda item in the weekly meeting to have small discussion about values/code-of-conduct/golden rules for karrot/etc (all)
  • keep in mind to iterate on this conflict resolution features in not so long! (anyone)
  • add a poll to find a new day for the weekly call (nick)
  • possibly some co-working next week… keep it lose (nick, tilmann, bruno)

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-12-13 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Janina
Where: Jitsi Meet

52

Date: 2020-12-13 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Janina
Notary: Bruno, Janina
Participants: Tilmann, Janina, Bruno

1. Agenda

  • checkin
  • short discussion about “karrot values”
    • what is the context?
      • which templates to offer groups?
      • how to decide if a new group on Karrot is legit? What does it even mean?
      • karrot.world values/policy, not necessarily for development or potential use of the software in other instances
    • no method how to arrive at karrot values yet
    • maybe just brainstorm, collect some terms and make a list?
      • we have an agenda, just need to make it clear
      • facilitate grassroots organizing, in-person meetings
      • where are the boundaries, what don’t we want to support on karrot.world?
        • commercial use for profit
        • discriminatory content, right-wing activity
        • hypothetical use case: right-wing youth club. It would probably fit their needs, but we would not know what they are doing.
      • what are the values that we want to communicate that the software is for (and the instance karrot.world)?
        • sharing saving resources
        • democratic and trust-based group “management” (or rather governance?)
        • ecological and social sustainability (?) (connected to saving/sharing)
        • real life community-building
        • commons/commoning (group-internal or even more public facing)
  • redesign of place page https://github.com/yunity/karrot-frontend/pull/2266
    • the tab list is too long for mobile, it’s not obvious that there are more options
      • that’s why Bruno wants to move the edit option to the header
      • an arrow pointing to the side could also make it more clear that there are more options
        • apparently they have been there once but the quasar upgrade made them go away
    • idea to combine pickups and wall a bit like in the main group wall
      • the topic of which page is more important - pickups or wall - is more important is not trivial
      • old idea was to make a place setting to decide the landing tab case by case
        • contra point: could be confusing if places behave differently
    • tried community feedback How to make Places more suitable for conversations? - #2 by danveg
    • idea to have a smart algorithm that knows what to highlight, like e.g. show unread messages or show empty pickups that happen very soon first
      • would need us to specify a hierarchy of importance for things - could get tricky if people use the software differently that anticipated
    • how to progress: small fixes like adding the arrow to the tab. Further on more structured, sketching ideas
  • new default time for this call
    • 6 people votes, unfortunately we don’t know who it was…^^’
    • voted first is Thursday, second is Monday
    • Thursday would mean to have the weekly call immediately before the governance call - maybe not ideal?
    • let’s put the next call to Monday 21st and then talk again to see if it fits
    • after that Tilmann and Janina will be out for a while anyway so other people should reschedule the call if they want
  • pick facilitator for next week
  • co-working?
    • changing children sleeping rythms make it hard to schedule anything long
  • checkout

2. Actions/Outcomes

  • next weekly call on Monday 21st!

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-12-21 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Bruno
Where: Jitsi Meet

53

Date: 2020-12-21 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Bruno
Notary:
Participants: Bruno, Nick

1. Agenda

2. Actions/Outcomes

3. Next

Next meeting: 2020-12-28 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Nick
Where: Jitsi Meet

1 Like