you all have great time and u feel that you make new connections and deepen some existing ones, energy giving and inspiring (bruno)
connecting with the Karrot team ppl that would be there is a key thing. 3 in the same place is a record. A bit of time for reflections, wanna flow with the conf topics, things look interesting but prefer to flow, place is sourrounded by a forest, enjoying the nature would be nice
doesnāt remember much of the workshops either, so would also like to go with the flow. Just have a chat with people about Karrot. Go into the forest and river (if thereās one)
one thing is to chat with people that do use Karrot. There are two groups there organizing that use Karrot so should be poeple there
some interesting workshops to watch
Nathalieās on sociocracy
on conflicts
on racism
on dragon dreaming
potentially do something about Karrot on the open space, like a look behind the scenes
CSX explorations [E]
standing topic: check the board! [E]
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
5. Actions/Outcomes
read through notes of call with FOSC (Bruno, Vasilis, all)
karrot team to look at 2nd notes, about dimensions and proposal forming, and bring it to group discussion (All)
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etcā¦
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, whatās on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
āLegalizingā Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot āteamā
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items?
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them ā have a focused session on this
wondering what possiblities the platform gives to supporting sustainability
frustrated after 2 years, not wanting to do things with foodsharing, but am again now
lots going on in Siegen, focused on local community
unsatifying though, want bigger visions and bigger leverages for change
this summer to reconnect with foodsharing international, permaculture scene, FuchsmĆ¼hle community (Germany) ā thanks!
bigger global/national ideas!
enjoy working and talking with Nick \o/
thrilled that after 8 years itās still running, very reflective people, really trying to find out how to build up infrastructures for this utopian world
have ideas about sharing and caring, if we donāt pick up trash, make our own softwareā¦ will lead nowhere
want to see what is possible to weave into academia, vasilis has been writing about CSS (community supported software)
got a new post-growth professor, wants to write a proposal for CSX
intriuged by karrot or think to join? intention to contribute, would like to join again and see how to fit in
would be nice to discuss at some point one of butzeās papers, around digital tools to empower community
how to bring karrot to the stage itās very user friendly, and low barrier to join
network effect of tools people already use, telegram, etc. hard to surpass this
they have so much money to make it user friendly, hard to achieve that level
if interested to jump in more, could run tests in siegen to see what works/what not
for now, find a way in, and see how it goes, following curiosity, and where something fits, curious about vasilisā CSS
more exploration of luxembourg [E]
travel costs Luxembourg (Nathalie) [D]
Nathalie expense: 79,25ā¬, paid by academy
also Nathalie got paid for the workshop (300ā¬)
ā Iād like to give something to Karrot, as see it as a karrot trip
could pay some with Karrot money
time to ask for things if needed!
nickās travel costs are around 150EUR, karrot money? or ask organisers?
Bruno: should definately get refunded, tend to think the party that has more finances should do it, not sure if thatās the organisation or karrot, not sure on the finances of the event, but donāt want discomfort if having to ask around, so good to just go with karrot money
and for Nathalies, nice to offer contribution to Karrot, no obligation though, so feel welcome
Nathalie: not sure if received a form to fill out, can support Nick with form filling out, just needs bill (bus ticket, with price), happy to help. which entity has more money? event has money! definately try and get the 30EUR, could imagine asking for more, quite far, and with open space session, see what they say, and refund rest from karrot money
for myself, can decide
follow ups
foodsharing europe? Karrot and foodsharing.de could be both part of it
used to be foodsaving worldwide, forum & Karrot with different focuses
foodsharing International within foodsharing - what does it do?
Karrot is a software project, could have a relationship
next barcamp
October deadline for Erasmus+ funding, another deadline in March
academic work
Philip and Vas and other people to collaborate
round of reflections/thoughts/comments
Bruno:
quite excited about idea of foodsharing europe
also see it as a separate thing from karrot and previous foodsaving worldwide, foodsaving international in foodsharing.de
more like a federation/community, find itās own governance structure, governing body?
get a bunch of people together with experiences from diferent contexts, including me excited to contribute, getting people together from different countries, where could we go, working together, how to act together on a european level to spread/consolidate foodsharing, different iterations, with a basis of what we are doing in europe
sounds like a really nice idea
regarding luxembourg/barcamp thing, heard a lot from Nick already, curious to hear how to was from butze/nathalie, was it fun! what was exciting?
another thing Nick mentioned, when talking about tech circle, also had mentioned a few people that might be interested in development work for karrot, maybe start having some dev sessions could be a space to invite curious devs to join
Nathalie:
had a good time at the barcamp! outstanding point was havenāt been in a ānetworking modeā for a long time, only having online meetings, which can be such an effort, networking side opened up a bit, met a lot of people, combined with knowing a lot of foodsharing people, lots of chats about that
finding my place holding a sociocracy workshop in person, want to do some reflections/improvements, a lot of interest in sociocracy, made me happy, very nice!
mostly in connecting mode, still curious, particularly about luxembourg, interested in karrot and sociocracy, review his notes about maybe switching to foodsharing, want to engage more, want to find out which features would help them to stay
how to combine sociocracy and karrot, sometimes not a perfect fit, how to make karrot a tool that a sociocractic group can use, through the lens of foodsharing luxembourg
didnāt join the visioning sessions
academic work is quite interesting, e.g. how CSX is getting in there, was enthusiastic on reading about it, feels like Vas is very skilled there, with uni background, not sure on my entrypoint, but interested to read more and read more papers from butze and vas, a big sympathy to academic work
foodsharing europe, sounds nice, something karrot team is not driving, but can be part of, e.g. sending a delegate to it, rather than being the new focus of karrot
a bit fuzzy though, some concerns about super bodies and how they would work, enjoy the seed though, and connection with luxembourg and belgium, makes more sense to work with foodsharing groups and being international rather than foodsharing.de driving it
not sure about thoughts on future barcamps, not sure about the connection and/or funding, we could do with funding, donāt have karrot legal infrastructure to do things ourselve, maybe a chance to do a subproject within it?
was orgianising festival for a couple of years and enjoyed that, so could step into it, not sure what would need to be in place to get involved, unclear right now
enjoyed the barcamp very much, beautiful scenary! was reminded of yunity events of highly motivated people coming together, everyone trying to be fully present and collaborate, exchange, network, very much enjoy this!
coming back to siegen, gives a nice reflection point, have been at a humus festival, foodsharing, repair cafe, workshop workshop, free shop, etcā¦ 40 people everybody contributing, ā¦ but itās ultimately just an event that people come to, and not so much about the daily life of people
thatās the tension, also for foodsharing international event, is nice to go meet nice people, talk, dreamā¦ but how to bring it into daily life
8 years ago thought we could do it in half a year, but know wiser and know it takes time, but we are 8 years wiser, and potential, e.g. foodsharing europe, to bring together local acting and global/europe thinking, one-issue based community
very nice informal chats, very nice workshops, nice food
if events like this would occur more often would have really good and lasting networking eventsā¦ knowing how hard it is to organise and get funding, etcā¦ would be nice that those that showed intention and effort to organise join forces
Nick:
more interconnected things
in dragon dreaming: dreaming, planning, doing, celebrating
sometimes itās nice to start with the celebrating, thatās what the barcamp was
now comes the dreaming
interested not about foodsharing but through foodsharing, learned about self-organization and community building
how to unleash potential from the foodsharing groups?
tangible next steps?
Bruno:
follow up with Daniel, or anyone else that was keen on foodsharing europe emergence
Nathalie:
look into Luxembourg situation more closely, re: foodsharing and sociocracy
nice to stay in touch with Bianca, would also be informed about potential next funding steps to jump on funding train
Butze:
was writing an email to Stefan, to see if heās interested to look into proposal to build up a project for foodsharing as a catalyst for further sustainable food practises (gardening, cooking, etc), didnāt have his email, so sent it to international email address of barcamp would be glad to have it
ask nathalie if she wants to give sociocracy workshop in sigen for foodsharing cafe group
ask Daniel if he can faciliate dragon dreaming with core people in Siegen
thinking to ask foodsharing akadaamidemidemieie, funding for foodsharing cities partnerships, connecting with a foodsharing group in the south of Berlin
Nick:
follow-up call with Daniel, invite to general Karrot call
Bianca getting ideas for funding oppertunities for Karrot
new group starting in Belgium
write something in pad, re-read email from Bianca
chatting more with Ka (who did racism workshop)
server update [RD]
SSD upgrade, 59EUR per disk (2, so 120EUR)
request to authorize budget
Bruno: yay, consent!
Nathalie: is it one time cost? yes. confirm with tilmann. consent!
Nick: consent!
FOSC explore dimensions and proposals of team [E]
not a lot of time now, but can also continue next week in the meeting
previously formed an ad-hoc group for brainstorming with the 2 karrot people (nick, nathalie), and 2 SoFA people (john, jane)
exploration in sociocracy can be very wide, so instead of jumping into proposals directly, explore the dimensions of it
Nathalie to faciliate a dimension exploring section
Dimensions of the proposal (āwhat aboutā¦?ā):
Who is currently on the team?
How is membership recorded?
How do we visualize/show this team?
Different ways you want to understand membership on the Karrot project?(forms of membership, levels of involvement)
How does membership relate to the whole governance structure for Karrot?
What are the powers of membership?
What qualities do you want to have for members?
How does someone become a member?
How do you end your membership/stop being a member?
What would it (the āteamā) be called?
Reactions
What is out of scope of membership? E.g. Collaboration?
What would it (the āteamā) be called? - added
good list of dimensions
keeping in mind ideas what the whole governance structure for Karrot could be, what other kind of rights and commitments in relation to Karrot, connected to CSS
talk about Karrot: for her itās easier to start there but then it becomes harder when the group grows and becomes more complex
Erasmus fundingā¦ One in march, perhaps Karrot could participate
Bianca might join a Karrot meeting. Daniel too at some point in the future
Brings up some ideas about federation
weāre all fine with Nick having a one-on-one talk, but thereās also interest in having a group conversation too at some point
Nathalie:
a bit overwhelmed with new structures
unsure how sociocracy would adapt to this context (at least itās a big project)
nice to keep connection with Bianca
more interested in concrete next event than foodsharing erope idea
Bruno:
idea of foodsharing europe still motivates me, aware of dynamics between people I donāt know
perhaps some new blood can create some new dynamics
size of groups using karrot topic is interesting, would be worth focusing and putting energy there
like federation idea, nice if connected to a real need, if done together with other groups, e.g. see what people in foodsharing.de think, can be useful
Nick:
lots of potential, in person meeting, shared motivation turns into effective organising
lean towards sociocracy, comes up everywhere
potential in dragon dreaming
strcutures in foodsharing seem to be exhausting, karrot as a liberation from that, trying things in a different way
more potential than action at the moment, people feel potential in themselves
playing a part in this
for Nathalie: relief to not handle foodsaving emails any more?
Butze:
crucial: what is the narrative? not only foodsharing europe, story for future vision
very exciting
agrees to many points that where said before
Nathalie:
important to have a good fit for the people in the group, rather than create the idea of the structure then take a long time to fill it
feels less overwhelming starting with a smaller group
not motivated to build something that lacks the people
Summarising next step
keeping the connection with Bianca and Beata, formulate invite for karrot call, and continue conversation
round to summarise impressions and anything to work on before the evening
Nick:
happy to see it come to some answers
in session tonight get someting to consent to in Karrot
good enough - topics can get big
close to being able to define that
Bruno:
reached a point with it having written the draft, cannot go forward without more input
agree with nick about the general feeling with it, getting something good enough for now, and iterative process, can review it further in the future
Butze:
good step for defining who contributes or not, reminds me of our telegram groups for communal projects, there was always the need to get people out of the group who are not contributing, e.g. where you have 40 people in group and only 5 answer a poll
also thinking of formal association we formed in Siegen, principle is people can take part in all initiatives without being a member, seems important to keep in mind
the more you formalise you form an unregistered legal entity, an unregistered Verein in germany
Nathalie:
on formal side, this is more like an FAQ so far Q ā A, maybe nice to have a text without the questions, just a statement
how much to have it inside the karrot group (approved role?)
generally a good start and coherent thing
was in our heads before, and matches what we discussed and think
gets more blurry with the wider / other types, relating to CSS? unsure of concept of contributors who are not in governance structure, lots of open questions
happy to focus on the karrot team
nice to send an email to FOSC so they can see it beforehand
Nick:
community page: group on discourse that defines that page, customized page
potentially inside Karrot, could even manually add custom roles
Bruno:
Iām fine with the text as it is to be sent
Butze:
a formalized text, looks like a kind of legal text out of it, clear words and meaning,
offer to help formulate it into a clear legal-style form
Nathalie:
fine as it is, end of explore phase, not seeing it as a ready proposal, but something to take into the meeting
still wonder how much these other types of affiliation will be included or not, something we can chat about later
happy to leave it where it is now, send it to FOSC and continue later this evening
little intro to butze about sociocracy FOSC circle
invitation for Nathalie to write a few sentences about it to share with them
move karrot mastodon account away from fosstodon [ED]
standing topic: check the board! [E]
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
money amounts from september onwards (Nathalie) [D] ā could also do this next time
5. Actions/Outcomes
nick to ask Bianca for guidance on money, if decide to pay from karrot money, has consent to receive travel costs [Nick]
write to Biana with summary of what we said, and next steps invite to call [Nick]
send our karrot membership thing to FOSC [Nathalie]
follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etcā¦
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, whatās on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
āLegalizingā Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot āteamā
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items?
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them ā have a focused session on this
could be interesting for foodsharing towns project too
involve Karrot as a suggestion for groups
how to have technical federation between projects, connect on social and technical level
Q?: Create an ecosystem of digital tools, is this also part of the idea? Rather practises and community, but there is this question: how can technology support
it is still a month to write proposal, scientist have some freedom
Q? what is the proposal about? Siegen quite succesful in several sharing practises - how can this be transfered into a rural area? What can we learn vise versa?
change default video call platform from jitsi [D]
to?
proposal: use living utopia BBB instead
reactions
willing to try
hasnāt worked well lately for myself (Bruno)
Iām fine
support proposal
interested to hear more reasoning
require at least one person to sign-in, github or google, no other option
wonder about language, can be annoying going through sentence by sentence as a group, would be happy for nick, as a native english speaker, to work through it
added work āconductingā to emphasise that we are doing stuff
like clarifying that it includes some stuff about making decisions
could be a final paragraph that itās embedded in a bigger governance work, working on mission/vision/css, also would be fine to leave it like it is
consent to how it is now
Vasilis:
proposal is within consent
agree with nathalie about language, a couple of lines that are not clear
overall really happy with it
āproactivity, meaning being able to take the initiative; and engage in a self-managed environmentā <ā maybe emphasise self-organised community environment, not individual
āIt keeps the project alive, intentional and aligned with its vision and values.ā ā wondering what intentional means
consent!
Philip:
no clear sense the team is consistitued by itās members
suggestion āthe karrot team is constitued through itās membersā
2nd paragraph, 2 sentences that are same point, but 2 setences apart (about policy decisions)
would suggest bullet points
also headlines to break it up and aid clarity
Nick:
few points. Why conducting in italics? Doesnt need to be in italics.
Needs a bit of description of what Karrot is? Seems obvious. Minor suggestions
Mentions of governance. Explicitly sociocracy?
Admin privilegesā¦other thingsā¦could add and other tools, future ones etc
requires active participaiton in the weekly meetings? Are u kicked out if u miss a meeting? Just think of someone that doesnt enjoy participatig? Can we soften? encourage? āregular?āā¦soften the requires
OBJECT based on the combination of the above
excersice once objecting muscle
Bruno: having some issues with BBB
a lot of feedback I agree with that can be incorporated
object if there is energy to incorporate feedback consent if not
how to make changes in the next week?
we removed the crossed out sections now
if you edit it in the next week, cross out what youāve changed
Nathalie: looking for new responsible person, in particular for ācommunity emailsā
loosing a bit of motivation
would be nice to have more support to answer them
was happy that Bruno was answering some
donāt like emails that donāt get replies for a long time
maybe a bigger question
Vasilis:
canāt take over the task, apologies!
can feel the lack of motivation, also donāt feel motivated
however, if we donāt find someone, I can at least try and answer some, or put it on a rotaā¦ maybe bad idea, but an ideaā¦
Philip:
asking what the emails are:
people wanting to start foodsaving
sometimes they think they are email foodsharing.de, or are not sure
so replies are not karrot-specific
sometimes donāt get replies
can help if there is no-one else, if others donāt really like it, donāt feel extensively motivated, but can support
Nick:
get a load of random ppl across europe/world. get an e-mail list on some platform and ppl can sign up and then anyone in the groups can answer and maybe it then develops a life on its own. They are motivated and reach ppl who are not motivated. Better spend time to try and find more motivated souls. Not motivation to give generic motivation. Do our replies go into spam? For the foodsharing europe thing: microproposal to set-up an e-mail list.
personally, donāt feel like taking repsonsiblity, can help and answer some
but not really the person checking and always answering, sharing responsiblity, could participate in a rota
possible solution could be to reach out to people in the karrot community, who are active in other groups, could ask them to ask aroundā¦ a way to engage people into karrot, pretty sure there are people around who are into the work
can be frustrating when there is a lot of initial enthusiasm, then they see how hard it is, and you never see them again
when it leads to something, is great, even if only 1/20 attempts succeeds
can see how it can fit into this foodsharing europe idea, if there is a way to make it easier (than using the forum)
in favour of opening up and inviting people for this task
Nathalie:
short term: onboarding philip to forum and emails
could get the yunity email link on foodsharing | International to be a link to the forum, could take care of this
spoke to Tilmann: wouldnāt participate in weekly meetings, remove from github org, what about the server, intention of the policy is to clarify what we have than to remove people, āorgā team and ātechā team, doesnāt want to do āorgā topics, suggested tech calls,
Butze
made some suggestions to the text
seems some other progress has been made, with a clearer structure
Nathalie
surprised by the amount of changes
new things added, feels like moving away from what we were close to consent on
unsure how to progress best
havenāt personally made any changes and unsure about some of them
sense of policy getting bigger, by mentioning circles, and sociocracy, adds new dimension to the topic
started with membership, would prefer to deal with membership initially, and leave the wider considerations
maybe delay the formalisation of the circles until later
if mentioning sociocracy, would want to add some other aspects of it, so better to delay
would be nice to come to an end, torn how to deal with it
Bruno
havenāt changed anything
had a follow up discussion about it last co-working
agree with whatās been said so far ā¢ļø
should move the general governance out of the membership policy
seems to make sense there is is āITā circle, and nice to progress this idea
ā¦ however we donāt have enough to do that, so good idea to bring it back to initial narrower focus on defining membership
Nick
can rework it a bit more after the call
like the structured sections
bring it back to the membership topic
get agreement done
github/forum/etc access, many other people have access already
Nathalie
like the sense to bring it more back to the core membership idea
last paragraph is about the future, so doing something there
we might work towards having different groups within karrot
would like to keep some of the parts of staying connected, or responsive
wondering who consents on karrot, everyone or the main core circle, or present team members in the call
some more things to figure about
Bruno
donāt understand part of whether tilmann is part of main team or different circle, reflecting his participation, focusing more on the IT, and not so much on the organisation part, and the karrot team is what is responsible for that part, and doing meetings, and stewarding the project as a whole, so a different kind of participation made sense
two paths emerging
karrot team as umbrella term, within it having different participations, e.g. with two circles
karrot team as one circle of more active organising participants
could still have external people who still have access
reactions
Nick
who consents on new membership? see document as a starting point, not the final strcuture
consern with narrow one: doesnāt reflect realtiv, Tilmann is part of the team and taking responsibility, example of harddrive failure
Karrot core focuses on organizing, tech things are hidden
wider understanding makes sense even without defining circles
include type of contribution Tilman is doing
resolve that sense first
wrote it initially without governance sense, which weāve added more in, the two paths maybe imply some a bit
Nathalie
where Iād like it to go, growing the team, and more people in goverance, would like to see karrot team as an umbrella, with different parts inside
would need to bring circles as an active topic
would have to define the domains, and the work, e.g. tech circle, which decisions would it take, lots of overlapping parts, e.g. who designs the features, or if somebody wants to play a bit, does it mean joining the tech circle
seems too big to formalise those things right now
if we go with more umbrella membership, how do we work out who consents on membership, e.g. could be each circle consents on membership (e.g. tech circle can welcome people in, and then they become part of karrot), other orgs have initial step of welcoming to organisation before joining circles, maybe to a membership guide circle
so, consent for new memberships could be in the weekly calls still? if somebody joins from the tech perspective, they would still join a weekly call
Bruno
interesting that the movement that the whole membership policy triggers
feels like a step back, to realise weāre not very well defined
makes sense to have a view on the wider governance, dealing with a living organism, canāt change it without affecting the whole, so defining a core, has impact on the wider system
maybe have to discuss the wider governance stuff a bit more to define a membership policy
both ways make sense, umbrella vs core team
if itās more the umbrella term, would like a different word to Team, which feels close, getting together and co-operating, like a football team, e.g. the weekly meetings, maybe a broader term for the ecosystem/community
no doubt tilmann has been a key part, but current role less like in team definition
have to think about the CSS/CSX ideas, where if youāre becoming a member of karrot, youāre using it, but maybe not contributing (so not members?), and decision making considerations for different levels
need to make consideration of these wider parts, seeing karrot as a body, whatās the head, the organs, etc.
was recalling the anarchist cybernetics book, had part more responsible for stewarding, some more operational, and the functional hierarchy
different parts TT, design, community engagement, etc.
want to hear what the wider member thinks, general assembly, etc. many thoughts, quite unclear
happy to drafts to get a bit clearer of what kind of proposal it is, even though weāre not really aligned, to see what kind of model weāre proposal, umbrella or core team
Outcomes
we welcome contribution in the Karrot team both with technical and organizing focus
not everyone in the Karrot team needs to join the weekly meeting
we will further work on the idea of governance and different circles and roles in the future
membership policy will allow this contributions
membership will be decided in weekly meetings
how do we feel about this outcomes/next steps
Bruno
agree generally, one little objection
the word āTeamā, doesnāt feel the best word if weāre broadening it
Nathalie
consent to this
Nick
a bit overwhelmed and frustration
itās only 5 people
complexity because of Tilmanns role, contribution is hidden, really feels like active part of the team, feels underresourced in the technical area
Bruno
itās also about a sense of belonging
withdraw objection, if āteamā brings sense of belonging
needs more time, feels a bit stuck
Next steps
revisit membership policy and check with Vas, bring back new proposal [Nathalie]
Nick welcomes input, and will review it to get it done (as long as Covid is not in the way)
schedule performance review Nathalie [R]
Oct 18th 10:00
Pia will do sociocratic facilitation
a bit like the evaluation at Kanthaus - see how the person is doing, have a feedbackā¦
wish to get a clear description about it, on the public activity
schedule fun session (Bruno) [E]
started sketching in on co-working session, but maybe thatās not the right time
create space for more creative work
forget about constraints
free flowing session
which structure could facilitate that space?
fun and inspirational
thereās struggle to be creative because of the structural topics
when would that be? evenings busy for Nathalie
wish for individual time to work on it
maybe both time by yourself and together
thereās a lot of work and energy being put in the practical side of fixing existing things
the question of it not being so fun anymore when it gets users and needs to fix stuff
Next steps: use a co-working session for this, 1 month from now - Nov 1st,
standing topic: check the board! [E]
next thing to work on karrot [E] technical
criteria (from last time we did that process)
something that I (Nick) can start coding immediately
nice to have support from a user perspective
connected to a clear need
be able to contribute
whatās important for the groups
Q: what does ābeing able to contributeā mean? for other contributors maybe, letās ignore
how much connection is there with the groups at the moment?
First round
Allow to record no-shows and give trust during feedback process: building on the last thing (feedback), 2 features for 1, trust giving journey, Kranti asking about no shows
Fix push notifications: would effect many Karrot users, improve usability
Banner/cover image for places: visual improving, playful feature
change round
no change
no change, would like banner/cover, seems easy, trust giving: could be a box of pandora - could also go with that
change to Allow to record no-shows and give trust during feedback process
Proposal: next work: Allow to record no-shows and give trust during feedback process
no consent: not ready for development, but could be design-process
whatās ready fo development? reflection on the process, agree that itās not ready
consent
amended proposal: only work on ārecord no-showsā
consent
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
5. Actions/Outcomes
report meeting with neighborhooddemocracy (when itās done) [Nick]
follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
check with Butze to make his post about academic articles a wiki-post [when Butze is in the meeting]
reply questions from Nlnet [all]
edit activity description of Nov 1st for fun session [Bruno]
split the task on feedback no-shows and trust giving [Bruno]
international part in fs.de has been quite dormant
quite a few people in foodsharing with international connections, but not much lead or structure
could make sense to co-operate in some way
on foodsaving.world there was a page about the difference between karrot and foodsharing.de, could revisit
could have a conversation about collaborating, not sure who to talk to, perhaps the working groups?
perhaps janina is waking up there to bridge, and explore how the projects interact
Bruno:
wonder what will happen, keen to observe, open to collaboration
biggest questions, how are they going to find the people, and support them to do the basis groundwork
how does it connect to ideas mentioned of foodsharing europe?
how to find enough people that have time/skills to create a group and make it work
maybe existing groups just need a little push
janina was good at this kind of networking, bringing groups to karrot, following up, nice she is becoming active again, would be happy to chat
platforms? foodsharing/karrot, there is awareness in that group of karrot, hope there is a good open discussion, showing the alternatives (advantages/disadvantages)
Nick:
rather spend time supporting groups whoād like to join Karrot
is their main intention to bring people to FS? donāt want to be in a competing situation
difference between FS and Karrot is clear, the latter is more explicit about self-organizing and FS is more like a hierarchical bureaucratic structure
havng this clarity would help groups to decide what they want
Nathalie:
thinking a forum post to explain the differences between foodsharing and karrot, could show to foodsharing, and invite them to add other things to make it not too biased, have some motivation to write such a thing
Bruno:
nice to put the cards on the table, if thinking about comparisons, not just featurewise (which is useful), but also what does it mean in terms of vision, governance, what are you becoming part of, what relationship are you creating by using/joining one or the other
not clear what they mean when they propose to start foodsharing, independent organisations? or governance together with foodsharing germany? deploy their own instance, or just foodsharing.network? (yes, same instance as foodsharing.de, different urls point to same instance).
reminded me of moderator/admin issues of platforms, and relation to metagov/policykit, something about having policies to decide things, not admins, and exactly where karrot is at
we give the policy (e.g. 3 karrots ā editor)
nice paradigm
Bruno:
nice to hear, wonder where they they go
started course in gothenburg about community organising, and similiarities, power with vs over, importance of face-to-face, resources of a community, how to build power together from social/human capital, finding places where people currently have power over, then build power together there
nice explorations, and to bring back to karrot, and how it would relate/translate, weāre quite aware of online/offline dynamics
Nick:
topics very aligned with what we found our way on Karrot
a lot of potential for Karrot there in the topics of community/neighborhood organising
interested in making parnerships and connections to groups and organisations working on the ground
connects to the vision/strategy topic
follow up with the personal connections, focusing on the UK context, to be able to meet in person
mention about tech fatigue, but also that people donāt know about tools that exist and the support they would need to use them
mind mostly focused on question of circles, one team with different responsiblities
less resistance to having multiple circles right away
de-emphasised the weekly call importance
acknowledged that we might have different calls
so, focus is meeting and sense of connection, but not specify exactly how
on decisions: tending towards āwhoās there decidesā, in reality likely to be in the weekly call, announce in advance if a decision will be attempted there
nuance between only having one team/circle, but also not built-out circles that decide their own things, perhaps represents current state, and a hint where we are going
wondering how to involve tilmann best in this conversation, wondering if heād be motivated to join the team (even in more fluid way)
Bruno:
a little bit confused from the previous call, opened up how encompassing the team is
now, as I understand it, itās a broader definition of being part of the team, totally fine for me
have enough, maybe some tweaks, happy to bring it up for consent round next tuesday, like in general what I see, can build in time, donāt need a perfect policy now, and better to deal with the questions when they come up
feels like tilmanns position with it can be resolved, have to check with him, and that he can continue participating
I like it!
Nick:
appreciates work
underyling topic: feeling undersupported in tech area, pressure of tech stuff
likes good enough focus, potential of review
standing topic: check the board! [E]
End of October: review money amounts
5. Actions/Outcomes
reschedule meeting with neighbourhooddemocracy thing [Nick]
follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
check with Butze to make his post about academic articles a wiki-post [when Butze is in the meeting]
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
2.2/3.1 interesting about more specific team parts
curious if weāll consent on each others membership now
how do we include tilmann here?
precusor to having circles
consent on the policy?
consent!
celebration!
consent on each others membership?
who becomes part of the team now? wait for vasilis? butze? tilmann?
either consent on the three of us present as members, or include people we know intend to be a member (vasilis), or include all potential people (tilmann, butze), or delay
Proposal: Members are Bruno, Nick, Nathalie and Vas. Reach out to Tilmann and Butze.
agreed!
Vas indicated wanting to be part of the team, need to hear from Tilmann and Butze
neighbourhood democracy call [R]
Nick had a call with them finally
a listing of a lot of projects
would be nice with they promote Karrot to their people
connection with the UK
person on the line was part of Barcelona en ComĆŗ, into municipalism (fearless cities) and trying to bring that to the UK to become part of this movement
Fearless Cities is coming to Sheffield in the UK in May, invited to so a session on Karrot
5 aspects of it, will be on the website
bringing ppl together
deepening democracy
assets and buildings
common interests
socioecological transformation
they could promote Karrot by telling a story in their website
municipalism, learning more, having an exchange about the context, e.g. in nordic/swedish context
where are overlaps, e.g. with foodsharing towns and municipalist/democratic stuff, foodsharing is quite big but also invisible and itās own thing, so at least sharing about that
trying out new use of Karrot, parent coop, some reflections [E]
been thinking for some time to try introducing it to the parent co-op where Brunos kids go
had a meeting with working group (info working group, that does website, etcā¦), would have to bring to board later on
they currently use dropbox for collecting documents, policy, working groups, scheduling, excel sheets, a forwarding email address (that doesnāt work very well, so karrot might be tangible help there, problems are people not getting added to list, and sometimes emails donāt arrive), working groups using WhatsApp to co-ordinate meetings, used to have facebook group which is now quite inactive
when presenting karrot, mentioned principles/values (e.g. not using commercial tools, analogy of thinking about food consumption about kids, organic, sustainability, also need to think about technology, as WhatsApp was proposed for main tool). proposal to use karrot for messaging, including threading to keep more focused discussion, then other aspect for organising working days using activities (currently one person assigns families to days, and co-ordinates families switching), karrot does self-assigning so would need a different workflow in karrot, maybe could be useful feature to assign other people? or suggest?
also for organising working groups using places, could connect to teams/circles in the future
advantage using karrot, more insight into different working groups, transparency, and personal support from Bruno to support use of the tool, and lead to future development
one person is trying it out, resistance to something new, and to learn, came up already, recognise that, getting feedback about difficulties in adopting karrot is useful
the process of creating a new group is good to notice little roadblocks in the way
in the long run can see if it can be useful or not, will continue gently pushing it, could become a co-operation to gather feedback to lead to further development
one wish that was expressed: āit woudl be good to fewer number of digital toolsā (e.g. get rid of dropbox), combining file storage and chatting, some tools you canāt get rid of
without turning karrot into nextcloud/dropbox/file storageā¦ can we find a way to create some basic organisation of filesā¦ good enough for groups to work with, hard to join them into one tool right now
will continue exploring, and collecting feedback and hurdles, can share notes on the forum
feedback from Nathalie
really cool, like effort to bring to local place, and personal connected group with different purpose
a lot of learning there, very good feedback
curious if it gets decided to use it
like the feature ideas coming: suggesting someone for a slot
reminded me of thought about time when someone is inactive, e.g. not good to kick people out if they donāt log in for some time, so feature could be a disadvantage if people donāt log in a lotā¦ different context to this loose thing
making more core settings more configurable
like direction to think about features
feedback from Nick:
useful to get the understanding regardless they will use it
learning from these cases
thinking of the CSA model, one example, create a group and collect all the issues. An easy way of becoming involved
idea of suggesting someone for a slot is like an invite for an event
question of having a suite of tools: not usually something that people want
relates to NlNet question: what is the core of a tool, what is peripheral
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
not yet
write a post on karrot to announce the members, invite tilmann/butze to apply, inform vasilis we automatically made him a member [Nick]
done
add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
done
add agreement to Karrot group and forum [Nathalie]
done
review bio/description on peopleās page [all]
poked people
follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]
not yet
4. Discussion points
review date for membership policy [D]
1 year?
Question: 6 months review date and 1 year end date?
nah, we can just do 1 year review date, and policy stays active (no end date)
1 year! done and updated
membership Butze? [E/D?]
would he like to become a member
feelās like heās still learning
would like to wait until heās made a real contribution first
maybe in 2/3 months
doesnāt mean he doesnāt want to become a member
still onboarding
reactions
Nick:
at outlandish had members, people intending to become members, and collaborators (not intending to become members)
quite like that idea
Nathalie:
makes sense, sounds reasonable
wondering why onboarding isnāt part of being a member?
makes the membership something bigger, would like it to be less big
experience in SOFA, relatively quick to be member, became welcomed as member in a circle, then onboarding later
Bruno:
makes sense
maybe more symbolic value, what does it really mean to be a member, and how should onboarding be
maybe becoming a member means having some commitment, or being involved, with enough knowledge, or skills, but not clearly defined
so fine to go with flow with subjectivities
happy heās interested
Butze:
letās reschedule to a month or 1.5 months
thinking about proposals where I see some kind of contribution for me
will take time
feel like I can contribute with proposals
need to wrap my head around it a bit more
think not far from now Iāll become one
Nick:
would be happy to see federation between Karrot and FS and can support that
Butze:
student came in wanting to write masters thesis, with idea of a 3D printed sharing box, with a QR code, people can give photos/videos of themselves, tried to make a food contextā¦ too big for masters thesis
thought is communities collaborating and talking, good for physical exchange, and it faciliates exchange
what about a karrot box? people from one community could put in things, e.g. seeds, harvests, and you send it to brussels to see harvest of bath, would like to experiment, trying to get theme into it that itās beyond just saving food, but also prosumption practises
Bruno:
have fun session planned for next co-working + 1, maybe suitable space for that
1st November is date for that
karrot.foodsharing.lu [R]
have more groups as subgroups
localised activities
support self-hosting of Karrot
coop cloud, worked with Michal
Nick tried to set-up server themselves
coworking session with Daniel and Elisa to deploy Karrot, server set-up most complicated
run their own fork?
using postal server for incoming emails
possible modifications
joining automatically a default group?
doesnāt need a landing page
maybe something around logos
interesting to see how this would boost collaboration between groups/ platforms
invited Daniel to include feedback and idea to our forum
potentially interested in development
nice to hear!
plug-in infrastructure for Karrot? build in for own instances, implement in core project later
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
Nick: going on a trip next week, may or may not be around, letās see
Bruno: started prep work on creating foodsharing sweden
Butze: going to meet Valentin Thurn soon, starting to network
next meeting:
tonight: sofa/fosc call scheduled: need to check with Nathalie if we try and postpone, or what?
Wednesday co-working: fun session co-working! nick, bruno
next Tuesday general: yes!
pick facilitator for next week: Butze (with support)
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weekās Actions/Outcomes
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
done!
review bio/description on peopleās page [all]
butze did it
not others
follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]
I think this was done?
please test push notifications on dev.karrot.world [all]
bruno was testing, and generally
a query as to which things cause a push notification
bruno will continue thinking about which things could
could also explore more prominent banner to prompt to enable notifications
add no-show questions to forum post for prompting [Nick]
asked kranti about it
test if pictures are uploading correctly with the right orientation [Bruno]
bruno did it, no issues found
feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
not yet
4. Discussion points
meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [E]
present idea, and explore first thoughts
background:
presenting karrot to be used at parents co-op
checking specific use case, exploring what we do, which digital tools we use, what we need, how could karrot be useful, what is missing
meta part: what can we abstract from that that would be common to other groups doing self-organising that might have grassroots vibe, might be well structured but without professional paid organisation structure
helps us get a bit clearer on karrots concept, currently half clear in our headsā¦ would be extremely useful to do that, lead towards a definition of what kind of groups karrot is for, based on which concept
community building, self organising, what do those things mean, start looking at needs, how are groups using digital tools, what are their needs, what does karrot offer now, what could it offerā¦ start gathering information more systematically
e.g. communication needs (quick? fast?), onboardingā¦ documentation system, like a cloud drive thingā¦ but for what
not that karrot would provide everything, but have a clear sense, what is the actual value we can add on a day to day basis that is not being provided by any other tools
and how it can/might interface/interoperate with other tools, how much to reinvent wheel, or notā¦ how might we create something new? how much can we copy?
looking for a structure/basis to start that journey
could start with notes from this specific case, could also go back to when we adapted karrot to bike kitchen (have videos from user testing)
Butze:
find this very interesting, prompted task to get this into some kind of thesis structure, could be a task for a student, who can look into it for 3 months, interview us, users
have a short manual in mind, could give a student the task to develop such a manual, and get into feedback loops with us
see it as good value and very important
could really sharpen karrot foci (different focuses)
last days Iāve been on karrot, saw link to welcome page, and first word noticed as ācommunity buildingā, relates to recent papers, discourse is that ācommunity building needs personal encountersā
interested to see how we see karrot and community building together, how karrot supports community building
a lot of technology building does not focus on this
worthwhile and useful for a student
Nick:
also see this as really valuable
from wider FOSS community a lot of developer centric around tools (dev can be self-empowered)
when ou are not a dev, you have to work with a whole team (which is a lot more complicated
ā gab of tools, that are suitable
Karrot has a more grounded approach (devs and team blend)
nobody gives a shit about a toolā¦ people want to do actions, want to connect with other people (rather than explore tools)
there are more projects that Nick knows, that have a similar interest (we can do it together)
Nick suggests connecting with the author of Anarchist Cybernetics
Adam Greenfeld is interesting
Bruno:
happy to have such a positive response
feel enthusiastic about doing something, but unclear how it would looks like, could be bigger or smaller, so many possible scopes
could be more karrot focused, or more widely concept focused with broader collaboration, maybe could be both, could do our own work, and dialogue with other partners and collaborators, building knowledge together about community organising and digital tools
also have our own focused work on karrot, talking about more specific karrot features
not sure about next steps
would initially put some notes down on the forum with experiences with the parents co-op
would be happy for butze to go ahead and forumulate something for masters students to do
would be useful to look back at the experience we had with katies masters students
one concern, it would be become too instrumental, if from the students perspective, which is kind of default mode, could be something of interest to the student, but at some point they just need to get something done to pass the exam, so potential itās just put in a box rather than coming from heart/curiosity, but ok thatās how institutions often frame things, if weāre lucky maybe not, but no harm either way
would be nice to reflect more on that experience and see how it could involve a student in a way they find it fun and experience to point and find it interesting
totally go ahead butze
could continue exploring now, or leave it as it is?
Butze:
got a lot of insights now, will refine what Iāve written in masters thesis document already
on point of whether student does it from heart: question of how we integrate the person, as karrot and supervisor, to be friendly to them, invite them to give updates in weekly call, will advertise as āwho is interested in FOSS projectsā, donāt want to focus on students who just want to get their points
bring the refined version back to meeting next week
Nick:
people in FOSS spaces collaborate in terms of report and case studiesā¦?
no tangible outcome for now but would like to participate in discussions
It is connected to academia: Peter Bloom (Nick had a call with him, tlaked about vision - explored a lot of similarities)
a lot of overlap with karrot.world
sharedfurtures has funding, but no users
Nick see potential for collaboration: similar goals - Nick working on both of them. potential is to get better platforms than if projects work alone.
Chellange: different working models
Nick presented a document with thoughts to Animorph
Nick wonders in which role he talks to Peter Bloom
Bruno:
again the funny thing happening of duplicate work whilst pursing same goal, on different paths
funny having one developer in common, working in parallel, given that, totally worth seeing where we could collaborate, does it make sense, what is different
to achieve best outcome as society, doesnāt mean everybody should work together and co-ordinate, not really feasible, should strive for more of that though, capitalist mindset is to pursue our own goals and projects, e.g. tech for good and social projects, even though itās not about making money, weāre still in the mindset of āmy/our thingā weāre doing, should be able to try and join forces more and work together
sometimes there will be differences though, and worthwhile trying to pursue same goal/visions through different paths
for shared futures, would be nice to have a clear idea of what kind of features itās trying to offer, and based on what kind of theory, and how is that different to karrot, how would they complement each other, which kind of ecosystem is it in trying to bring value to people doing self-organised community work
maybe nick can guide us on how to explore it, can we log in? create a group? somethingh hands on to get a clear picture of what it offers
happy to hear the vision/theory, and how a digital tool can faciliate community organising
Butze:
started to explore the website, see the general vision to bring people to collaborate
looking at academic profile of Peter, would like to talk to him if nick is interested to pursue it further and talk about HCI-related stuff
sent the link to co-worker who is interested and patient about exploring websites
happy to be an academic link
very nice thing that main developer (of karrot) is keen to work with others
tech updates
push notifications [R]
bruno had tested and we talked abouit it. will get into production
noshows [R]
nick talked to kranti, who said thats exactl what Nick should do. Nick will develope it
selfhosting [R]
Nick worked with Daniel. Had to do some things. It is working well.
place statuses [R]
Nick did some fundamential work.
plugins
it is a nice idea. got some good feedback. Aim is to get the front end thing build and put it into production. We could have some minor plugin on our own instance and see how it works.
video calls
technolog exploration. could we integrade something like BBB? Nick went Karrot and foodshasringon a journey to explore diffent tool.
Butze talked with Stefan K. [R]
board member of foodsharing e.v. one of the leading figures of foodsharing academy
nick and I met him at international foodsharing gathering this summer
contacted him to see if heās interested to work on a proposal together, current submitted thing he didnāt have time to work on it
see a lot of overlap with my work, main goal is community building
we wonāt do a proposal in the next 2-3 weeks, longer term project, looking into EU funding, going to start a first draft now with ideas
not just doing a foodsharing proposal, but combining with karrot, shared with himheās joining calls
stefan said heād be really interested to know what is happening in karrot, but no idea where to look, shared we have the minutes, but didnāt know how to link him there
meeting in maastrict in december: how can maastrict get into the foodsaving/foodsharing circles, going to attend, and meet him, see what is happening there, we met some people in maastrict from international academy
when I have first draft will share with you (karrot), needs half a year to get a good proposal, and lots of stakeholders together
Bruno:
clearer idea of what the funding/project would be? get together foodsharing, karrot, community building? kind of open still, or is it more specifically worked on yet with a direction
nice and interesting to hear Stefan is interested about karrot, but cannot find anything, maybe good feedback make it easier for people to find information on the background, and what is happening
maybe they end up on landing page, but how would they find out behind the scenes
wondering if there was a maastrict group that used karrot?
also was thinking about the foodsharing france thing, bruno is looking at a foodsharing sweden platform based on karrot, and seeing in france by default they are going with foodsharing platform, potential to collaborate?
Nick:
there has been controvercities between karrot and foodshring (karrot started to be a tool that distinguishes from foodsharing). would be very good to bring them orginazationally together
Foodsharing Academie seems like a good place to get bother more connected
building tech infrastracture to connect both would be great!
something about sociocracy where nathalie could look at it
doesnāt have to be a big text, but give the student who reads it, a kind of feel of what is there to explore, always need to talk to student to explain further
doesnāt have to be academic or good text, can be a brain storm/thoughts
timelimit: no timelimit, but would be great in the next two weeks to get something
no need to make it proper, can splurge it out somewhere
Date: 2023-11-07
Facilitator: Butze, with support from Bruno
Minutes: Butze/Bruno
Participants: Butze, Bruno
Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 40 minutes
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
Wednesday co-working: Bruno will be there
next Tuesday general: Butze, Bruno will be there
pick facilitator for next week:
Consent to agenda
2 min
Review last weekās Actions/Outcomes
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
write on forum about push notifications (bell? new UI to activate?) [Bruno]
feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
Butze refines the Master-Thesis document regarding meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [butze]
Discussion points
Foodsharing Sweden
new law: shops/supermarkets have to do proper recycling
good opportunity for activists
creat a structure of Foodsharing Sweden
idea: platform that has 3 pillars (similar to foodsharing.de): 1. Networking/Outreach/Connecting to new groups // 2. Digital platform, set up own karrot instance. // 3. Connect to bigger names/companies to establish national wide cooperations
Bruno had a call with students from a city called Jƶnkƶping. There is a foundational document (1-pager), where Bruno outlined the vision. Please have a look, comment and add.
there are not a lot of structured foodsharing groups in Sweden yet (Gothenburg is like the biggest and best organizedā¦ Gothenburg gets conntacted quite often and is asked for help - G. then shares their experience; digital platform could make this easier + the platfrom gives some identity)
good opportunity to learn from Foodsharing Germany
communities currently dont learn from each other
pragmatic reasons: a lot of effort locally already
a very limited number of people doing the core organizing, and others are āfree-ridingā
people already involved in many takss (local responcibilities) do not have the time for extra tasks
important to focus on it right away at the very start. Hard to do it later
structures can be implemented at the start of Foodsharing Sweden. Idea of a rule: every district needs a connection/networking ambassador
this relates to the whole CSA-discussion and fair contributions-distribution
fair contribution is also a big topic on Foodsharing (combining e.g. cleaning the FairTeiler and picking up at āgood storesā is discussed among developers)
people who take on the hard tasks (a lotof tasks) donāt feel appreciated and supported (two devs just left)
how do these structures relate or apply to local foodsharing groups?
a discussion of cherry-picking rule connected to people doing tasks
a lot of invisible/anonymous work is done to build up and maintain the structure
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
write on forum about push notifications (bell? new UI to activate?) [Bruno]
feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
Butze refines the Master-Thesis document regarding meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [butze]
Butze is looking at the 1-pager regarding Foodsharing Sweden [Butze]
for transparency could make the group aware there is a private group chat (not saying itās a good idea, just a thought)
people will make private chats if they want it, if not in karrot, somewhere else
leads into concept of sub groups
design sprint for this?
motivated adding new stuff, commenting things
microdiscussions on tasks in the meetings
natural flow
replying to kranti, relates to some existing topics
how to keep it organised
assessing how important things are, ideally including the people who reports it, in a meeting/call to get more feedback
ongoing work!
future description of the tasks of the karrot team: curation of input and feedback from the community, turning it into a coherant whole
how do we connect all the stuff to the board, trying to remove noise of having content spread all over the place, can have links to discussions, sketches, history
we use to get a flood of ppl at some part of the year, undergrads who have to do their assignment,
hard to manage
havent seen any for a whileā¦but some came in but I dont want to be grumpy.
I d like a solution so I dont have to go through the ātoilā of explaining what is going on and how to do and blahblah
give butzer details and they talk to them
spent some time with us in the meetings and then maybe engage
reminds me of CSA, people coming to weed tomatoes and weed the tomato plants themselves
reminds me of butze talking about tomatos when I visited in 2020 social.coop
like idea, ifyou want to contribute, have to join meetings, not just seeing what is on github, actually meeting with people running krarot, should be part of assignment, can report back to uni thatās the crack, have to understand some of the culture and say hi
in co-working could write a short guideline, e.g.:
thinking to send an application, negotiating location (as itās in Paris)
asked for a list of case studies, they sent a list of countries
france, spain, luxembourg, germany
not clear what they define as digital commons, things like GIMP, or like karrot (that supports physical commons)
asks for a cover letter
one stream could be, digital commons when it comes to small scale agriculture
another could be, community support software + interopability with karrot, etcā¦
how could funding also be shared not just for the researcher, but also for the project(s)
not 100% sure to apply
either go with their agenda, fit into their thing, other way is to bring in more own ideas, ideas from agriculture + karrot
if with karrot
community supported software model + pilot it
connect with other projects and look into interoperability protocols
if you have any ideas, and needs/wants within karrot, can see about negotiating ite
butze:
looks interesting position
seems rather undefined
would give it a shot, and see how much you can put in of your ideas/agenda
curious, as EU funded, expects it shouldnāt be just in paris (vas clarified the countries)
did some research on EU funding recently, found some older calls connected to food waste, but this isnāt part of it
seems part of LIFE program, can send links
bruno:
sounds a very good opportunity
donāt know specifically what to suggest, regarding angle for karrot, brought up good topics already
maybe need to check if you have negoating power or not, if you have can connect with agriculture/karrot, otherwise have to be positive going with what they have to offer
not clear what case studies are yet
nick:
Karrot has already implicit connectins to commons,so framing within a commons
ask on my fediverse account for suggestions (eu tech, funding)
spend time in the co-working to go through it and fire of some ideas more specifically which might alight best
its within the NGI. Having got NLET net funding again looks favorably
we metioned commons in our last application. Its a point of strenth
vas:
so much to neogiate, wonāt have thesis submitted by the start time
so fuck it, can submit whatever
collaboration on papers/works etc. [E]
Butze:
surprised at vas handing in a paper without butze knowing
in academic world, papers are main currency, for funding/careers, and making a point that people are collaborating, so important to share co-authorship
for CHI paper, leonie is main author, asked vas to provide feedback near the end
desire to establish practise to collaborate on papers
2 days notice was very short time
also respect if somebody wants to be single author
vas:
paper was on backburner
wrote last year, submitted to CSCW, rejected, reworking it this year
3 days ago, received message from journal, and do you have something to submit
supervisor, pushed to submit it as needed extra paper for phd
didnāt think to reach out, had to work and submit
butze:
paper was from a year ago
vas:
came out of nowhere
no a personal thing
bruno:
understanding is, vasilis submitted a paper recently, announced it was submitted, was last minute, ā¦ had submitted a year ago, then got to know about a call, and pressure to submit for phd, so sent it in
announced it today, submitted last night
understand butzes frustration
see the conundrum
nick:
butze:
not much to add, feel disappointed, understand some of the reasoning, but still donāt understand why wasnāt communicated 4-5 weeks ago (asking for some feedback - similar how I did with the CHI paper we submitted, on which I put Vas as a co-Author for his feedback), unsure about intention for working together on karrot papers
vas:
a practical decision
get the point, could have shared it when having wrote it, get it
not an intention showing I donāt want to collaborate, not at all
if you personally, donāt find it ethic within research community, can hear that and respect it
can imagine lots of other people I didnāt share it with, canāt share it with all the people at short notice
bruno:
positive, or solution oriented solutionā¦
vas seems more in defensive mode, trying to explain why
heard disappoint from butze, and the question of whether vas would like to collaborate or not
heard vas say he would like to collaborate, making it clear there is an intention to collaborate under the practical decision
vas:
not here to compete, would like to collaborate
offer to speak in private with butze, also happy to have the space in karrot
butze:
fine to carry on the meeting now
vasilis:
not sure
happy to chat with butze if heās up for it, even staying after call, or whenever
bruno:
happy to move on
nick:
offer to join a call with both of you
butze:
we can talk later about
they stay on the call after this one
socioracy for all fosc callā¦
call this evening 6 UK time
one topic is what collaboration means in the future
one suggestion: how to bring sociocratic features in Karrot
came from inviting them to foodsharing sweden, they were positive to this concept
multiple roles for bruno, part of solikyl, foodsharing sweden, and karrot
chatted with anna marie, we previously chatted with her (nick/vas prob)
positive feedback about the new feedback display (giving a better idea for their stats to see who didānt give feedback, or dismissed it)
suggestion: pin message on top, to show important announcements. thinking about the rules of the group.
why not use agreements? they were not really aware of it.
okā¦ but how will people find out about the agreementsā¦
can do follow up to see how it can be useful
option to pin agreement?
always pin all the agreements?
add feature to require consent to agreement, and they have to agree
show who has agreed/consented
could use the smiley/sad faces for it
pin feature could be used for many things, activities, etc.
nick also imagined personal ābookmarkā feature, and āpinā would be kind of like the group-level version of it (and karrot is group focused, so group-level stuff makes sense there)
applying/joining group is another moment for consenting to agreements
need to be more integrated into flows of karrot, not just an item in the sidenav, otherwise they go unnoticed
same as offers
feedback is good example of something more integrated into other features of karrot
suggestion: give feedback as emoji reaction
membership review, what to do when people break rules
shared we will be working on software sanctions, theyād like to be part of that discussion
they have a 30 day ban if somebody is not following rules, ban from participation in the group, mostly focused on pickups, if they donāt show up to a pickup, arrive late 3 times, they get the ban
they didnāt know about the no-show feature
maybe people donāt want to be the snitch
if itās related to a sanction itās a bigger dealā¦
idea to allow groups to add custom bits of text in different places in the UI could help make things clear in the context of the group
sanctions feature would be welcome
if they donāt respect the ban, they use the membership review process
so far people have respected it
remember to invite them!
relating to admin roles, etc.
one person in the group, too bossy, claiming to be founder, only person that got trust karrots
trust carrot feature ātoo democraticā
others took over control of āadminā account from the person
suggestion: higher threshold, e.g. 5 ā¦ or remove it completely
the fact that we have the trust system, allowed power to transfer
creating an āadminā account, sort of created this situation to centralize power
usually a fear of distributing power
creating accountability mechanisms to stop people who just want to take power for the sake of it
what are the methods and tricks to distribute power?
karrot has principles of non/less hierarchy, but fewer mechanisms to encourage those practises
limitations of how much can be done via software, still based in the group culture
2/3 of those things from lund are in our nlnet funding, so validates those things
nlnet next steps [R/E]
they sent a doc that we should read, start the process to get the MoU
theyāve got welcome calls to the projects this time, one on 27th and 29th
āwe will have the two welcome meetups next week instead of last month - on Monday November 27th at 9:30 AM CET and Wednesday November 29th at 15:30 CET to be preciseā / āHope you are able to attend one of the sessions, please let us know in time!ā
need to go through document, and work out what we do
Nick and bruno read some in the coworking last week
4. Discussion points
review money amounts [E/D?]
overhanging from last month!
wise account 8.804,98 EUR
vas: 230, good
in the near future might ask for more
have 2 rents
nathalie: currently 200, wouldnāt go up, nice to have it continue!
bruno: 200, like to continue (absent, assumed still current)
nick: currently 200? was 500 beforeā¦ wanna go back up to 500 cause I m doing lot of work on karrot, and I m about to spread my wings and fly. Few days for the other work.
butze: I have enough from the university,
total 1130 ā¬/month
consent! but didnāt set the term
term: check in next month, to see how vasās situation is, and decide whether to continue or review
nlnet update
full confirmation from NLNET, Nic and Bruno went through it, joined the welcome meeting and gave a 2 mins intro to Karrot, very developy, Karrot one of the few related to āpeopleā.
we need to schedule a 1 on 1 meeting, refresh our plan, sth needs to happen around that. Will be nice if we have a little team commited on doing this thing.
entity
dont want to use my bank account (Nick). NLNET distribute money to individuals, no tax things.
-plan
similar to what we did but add all our bank accounts.
instead of one wise account, we do sth more complicated
or find a fiscal host, another legal entity, techcultivation somehow connected to NLNet and other ones,
have a legal entity, and are employed by the entity
donāt feel super involved in the funding, and donāt plan to dig in too much
if there is room, we could ask for more (inventaire went for full 50k)
not understanding what concretely we need to do
bank account
would like to have been clearer before, could have seen it coming, but maybe not too late, appreciate the research
wondering how it goes with our money agreement, donāt want a surplus of karrot money on my account, needs more attention how it would work
Vas:
happy with all the options
not sure about doing the thing with private accounts, would like to explore fiscal host or setting up own entity, personally flexible
from next month registering as a freelancer in UK
wondering if itās a grant, and tax, etcā¦ do we have an accountant?
happy to work to establish a legal entity (including fiscal host option)
Butze:
for the long run, a legal entity would be most sustainable, but itās workā¦ can be cumbersome, should be an association with a constitution that says itās just about the financial stuffā¦ a lot of people donāt like this kind of work
Nick:
its time to do sth other than the personal accounts,
either fiscal host or legal entity
not willing to work on it on my own
make a team to work on it, co-working on that
to create a more established entity requires comittment, if we gonna step it up I need to be woring in a team that is willing to comit, Karrot can be working here and there.
I m concerned whethere there is the comittment to work on that.
to me feels that we dont have the capacity to do it,
default: private payments through our individual accounts
next steps?
Nathalie:
wondered with fiscal host / opencollective thing, also there are things like who owns the domain, runs the server, etc. is a fiscal host enough? would be nice to have collectively organised, not just the money
wondering about timescale, might be time restricted from nlnet side
maybe play it the scenarios through in a co-working session
would like more details from nick, e.g. money on wise account
Vas:
second the question about the role of the fiscal host, I guess itās only money
would be happy to explore fiscal host, aware bruno already reached out to techcultivation, wait and see what they write back
other scenario, karrot could have legal entity of platform co-operative or something, to give it a name
happy to reach out to people who know, which legal entity they use, find knowledgable people
Butze:
thinking about doug, he was often keen about these topics, maybe he has an idea
can contact him, maybe nathalie seeās him though
Nick:
still have concerns wheter sth proceeds concretely,
like the step of exploring existing projects (e.g. maxiximsā project)
aobut the domain and the server, if we have a legal entity we can put them in the name of the legal entity, doesnt change the practical part, hosting is in Kanthaus, domain is under my name
Nathalie:
is fiscal hosting enough for a project, maybe for a software project a step missing?
Vas:
if we have a fiscal host, does it mean we can apply for an eu funded project, as we have a legal entity? so elligable for things we werenāt before
Nick:
in my head the concept is that you become part of their legal entity.
time is not urgent but we should take on active steps
found 2 people who help people apply for EU funding, sending them some text
presented the text to foodsharing academie in maastrict on 24th nov, people enthusiastic, stefan enthusiastic about it, and seeās opportunities, co-organising with academia there is more funding possible
stefan is applying for about 60k for something at the moment
also working on the german version of the doc a the same time as the english one
would be happy for people to look through and get comments
proceeding in january to chat with the 2 people that can help
application overview:
application is about helping foodsaving and sharing initiatives to spread, and connect around europe, especially to help new communities to get started
to bring more practises of food resource sharing (knowledge, seeds, shit, soil) too
how this can inform platform development, in foodsharing.de and karrot.world
academic, not just HCI, geography, biology, social science
also chatted with Bianca, connecting with some of her professors
round:
Vas:
will go through the doc
makes total sense we butze said, all the things we have been discussion
moving beyond foodsaving/sharing as such, so wider sharing culture around food resources in general
question: is there a deadline in this LIFE application? timelineā¦ (answer: at the moment noā¦ like 3-4 years)
are we looking for consortium of entities? yes. and karrot as one of them? yes.
thanks butze for working initiating it
Nathalie:
really nice, seems you have a lot of knowledge about it already
EU funding always felt a bit scary, but feels more thought through already, grateful for this, having the office helping, feels solid
hopefully have the entity question figured out by then, so can be part of the thing
wondering what the karrot part in it? heard networking, organising, etcā¦ can it also fund programming work on the software? wondering what the foodsharing.de piece would be, and the karrot piece etcā¦
feels early but promising
Nick:
gratitude for putting it together
really aligns with the topics, 4 pillars you presented
we go in Karrot, beyond foodsaving and food in total, to the wider culture, contained within the food realm still, was in a chat with Bonfire, to get to a consortiumā¦oh my god the bureacurcay is insane
lots of companies that swarm around to take over this work, scared of that stuff, skills to interact with EU
inner strenght to keep your wise goals in mind and get through the consortium process
I like it if that foodsharing.de and Karrot will come together, which to me makes sense,
I like the potential for inter-cooperation between groups and things.
relates to this shared-futures project I work, on knowlegde sharing, resources on how to get things started up
I m trying to weave that into everythingā¦(the shared-futures)
Butze:
applying for āa bigger numberā, something like in the 7 figure range
organising gatherings, hackathons, festivals, go to communities
more than just the scientists going there doing the science work
more including social aspects around development
development of platforms too
need to work it out together
havenāt attended karrot co-working yet, but now added it into calender, so after back from hols after 13th dec, will attend!
will take some time nowā¦ half a year before it can be submitted, a lot of talks with foodsharing board, maybe can already get funding for preparing funding
will take a lot of work, and different from when companies apply, as itās done voluntarily
Nathalie:
feeling for chances to get it?
Butze:
important for me as it relates to academic/activist work
will be a main task to work on it, usually if I have something in my head, think it has a lot of chanceā¦ no open call for helping grassroots initiatives, so work to get the right contacts at the eu
there is some knowledge from professor how to get EU funding
committing to after handing
Nick:
nlnet funding as feed-in to consortium funding, maybe foodsharing could do nlnet funding too
Nathalie:
plans? finish disseration then stay on in the uni? answer: yes.
dev update [R]
place statuses
adding capabilities on the code level to make it really nice,
drag and drop reordering
screen shareā¦maybe next week
screen share no-shows went down,
Kranti got eventually got rid of the Gdoc
Kranti shared the b video that Nick made
place statusesā¦soon to be deployed
nick meeting with peter et al. next week to talk about shared futures / karrot [R]
karrot and shared futures carry on as seperate projects
more like a plug in model, if core bits of karrot, karrot software allows another project to buld on top of it, I think thats quite a nice model
merge as a project, seeing a pragmatic way of working together
I dont think anything is gonna happen quicky
next week I ll introduce karrot a bit and the potentials, in my mind one of the main benefits to karrot would be for funding, currently put another funding application for 2-3 yers.
one thing part interesting, New groups starting up. and sharing knowledge and resources, how do you get the group to have a plan, strategyā¦
project partners: animorph, uni of essex, community organising
digital ecologies of tools, maybe they have a list of tools and best practises of what tools theyāve been using, case studies
butze: want to organise hackathon with foodsharing developers, would be interesting if karrot participated, online or in-person
prefer in-person
Next time:
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
standing topic: check the board! [E]
Nesta report? any takeaways?
FOSS thesis - Feedback? (butze)
Hackathon (butze)
5. Actions/Outcomes
continue work on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno, Nick]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
try and read Butzeās doc through and write something, also suggests we could do it as group activity [Nick]
for co-working tomorrow
do research on opencollective legal/ fiscal hosting questions [Nathalie]
progress fiscal host / legal entity stuff in co-working [anyone in co-working]
write in about nlnet feed-in money in butzes eu application doc [Nick]
there might be several ideas to use again erasmus+ money, mostly atm conect germany, belgium, now the NL would be one more
some proposals, travel expedition, adult education as the main purpose
while the call is prepeard by Foodsharing.Akadiemie, Daniel and I will apply for such a call from a different perscepctive.
more open and more relevant for Karrot
education has to be in there
not just creating a network
meeting up tomorrow with ppl in belgium
part of the agenda to discuss Karrot as a tool for this group (unrelated to the EU funding ;D)
Bruno:
education? now working on the foodsharing.sweden. We ve been working on that
what is more unique about foodsharing?
educational aspect on creating community, woring as a collective, deciding things together
coming to togethere as the dif of sharing for charinty vs sharing for community
Nick:
happy working together
supporting, interested to put energy
interested to see what role Karrot plays
interested to see the role of self-hosting
FS luxemburg decided to run their own instance
If FSweden comes up as wellā¦
practicing democracy
imporant to see how Karrot and Foodsharing are not competitive but can live harmonioysly,
not one mega tree but trees in the same forest
the municipalist movement (fealess cities) intersting in relation to brunoās approach to education beyond saving food and into managing food as a collective resource
Nathalie
can you apply for another erasmus+
Bianca: YES. not just numbers about food and cooking
how do you start sth? how do you set up a group even?
this could be a whole pad
a puzzle of pieces for boostraping groups
Vasilis:
donāt have erasmus+ experience, donāt know framework, attended some before
like the idea from bruno, foodsharing as the medium to develop other skills, food democracy (more polite than food sovreignty)
happy to see how karrot can play a role in that, role of technology in exploring collective decision making over food as a common
partners: have a collegaue in athens, got funding, developed a board game based on food, goes around conferences presenting it, 10-14 years old + adults, open source game (CNC + 3D printer), get exposed into food politics through the game, competitive and collaborative. part of a research lab + legal entity in athens there.
thatās it.
Bianca:
I think that sociocracy could be a theme to pursue, all dif inpouts, board games is they like it,
lesson learned (5 objectives) ā at the end you dont know what ur aim is
better stucture
ideas you want to pursue and commit
sociocracy sounds like the go-to?
sit together we daniel, or a totally different one,
would like to be international as possible
Vasilis:
how might karrot be woven into it?
practises to manage food waste democratically, and a method could be sociocracy
Bianca:
karrot could also be a beneficiary of the project
main goal could be to do training, e.g. sociocracy training, people in/behind/using karrot could join there
karrot brainstorming events
Nick:
prompt to consider foodsharing warzsawa
Biana has meeting with daniel + belium people
then we come back and chat more, and see how we can work together further
dev
custom place statuses [RED]
walk through?
what to do when archiving statuses?
Bruno:
looking really nice!
visible thing? a little explanation. Yes it is there ;D
wonder how it looks on mobile?
creating a status, add a new one, after u add a status it is auto-selected
feature directed to power users
archive the status and archive the placesā¦so just give the option
Bianca:
not detailed comments, small to look on me phone
Nathalie:
great,
really like the models, in line thing, super great, appreciate the effor to make it consistent
how to archive all the places that have this or that?
even its ok not to introduce the default thing, have the drop down menu
you can always choose on demand
worth exploring having an archive but still leaving the status available?
Vasilis
cannot really understand why the archive, but makes sense probably
looks really well made
what happens to existing places when deployed?
automatically create customs that match the existing ones
Nick:
how to announce new features
use the banner?
last bit work a bit more on the archiving
plugins [R]
mergible very soon
this would really suit the self-hosted instances
hand the power
need if we deploye our own instance (solikyl) work our landing page
surface showing the group gallery and maps
self-hosting describing the community not the soft project (karrot)
foodsharing luxembourg to continue with karrot [R]
shared the news, whether to switch to FS or Karrot their own instances
decided to go with their Karrot one
nlnet next steps?
initial plan
add or remove ideas? potentially we can add fore more stuff and get more money
what do add in?
need to do some work in ourselves
a little list of stuff, and things from our board,
federation? activity pub but where? messaging chanel/route?
schedule call
- once we work out the above, have a call
legal entity?
in parallel to work on that? legal entity/legal host?
UK entities a bit of research. A european entity another option
UK entities, things aspects of the decision
who would be part of the entity?
a small group?
all of the users and the groups?
who should reveive money?
how/whats the right legal entity?
commuity shares?
who is to benefit from the entity?
can have our whole session
how we decide which country it should be in?
a decent chunk of a meeting to chat over that
-Bruno:
- quite a lot of work, research from our respective countries, problems and possiblities
- basic reseach to see thatā¦compared to the fiscal host
- in favor of adding stuff (Nlenet), we dont lack ideas, prioritise stuff, about federation, wait until time is correct ādont put the cart in front of the horsesā
- so much work on plugins
- come up with a decision by end of the week
Bianca:
allowing for grouprs to communicate among them
cross border interactions? importatn
legal framework: Beata could be a contact person. Laywer, a ref person. Would probaby be able to guide legal entities
Nathalie:
what do we need from a legal entity?
interested to see the NLNret project on a time scale. Have an idea of what we do when?
Vasilis:
reworking nlnet proposal?
how can we borrow principle of status/colours we used in karrot, and use that concept to create a codification system for our karrot task board, ā¦ moving towards more open and organising in terms of contributionsā¦ maybe move tasks into karrot itself
happy to explore fiscal hosting
what sort of represntation to participate in things, e.g. erasmus+ programmeā¦ do we borrow name of a fiscal host?
Date: 2023-12-129 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Butze, Nathalie
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 1h5
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
learning that itās amazing itās possible you can participate in the karrot features \o/
christmas is next week
next meeting:
coworking: nlnet scheduled for that time
nlnet meeting: ā¦ sign up!
next tuesday: nobody, itās christmas!
pick facilitator for next week:
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weekās Actions/Outcomes
continue work on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno, Nick]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
try and read Butzeās doc through and write something, also suggests we could do it as group activity [Nick, Vasilis]
we did it \o/
do research on opencollective legal/ fiscal hosting questions [Nathalie/Nick]
I did a bit
write in about nlnet feed-in money in butzes eu application doc [Nick]
nopeynope
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
nopenopenopenope
4. Discussion points
nlnet update [R]
potential things we could also do, if we can extend the funding:
self-hosting/costumization. Eitheir way with Luxemburg group moving to their own instance this work will be done
high demand activities/activity limits. There are real-life cases where groups want to use the software to put limits over some activities.
Software manual. We think of that as a click on interactive manual for Karrot.
Improving the concept of the board (tasks board). For Karrot as project and for groups as well. Board can be a new features that groups can use to organise. Also real-life cases, groups asking to use the software to better organise tasks beyond foodsaving activities only.
Progressive interface (we keep that on the side). Needs a lot of work maybe and exploration but we can still introduce it.
nathalie:
is list too long? can we narrow it down, 2 or 3 maybe?
like the ideas, some more priority
software manual - still have some motivation, donāt have full clarity around what is the desired format/outcome, donāt have vision for in-software version of it
seems enough if nick/vas present, donāt feel I could be very useful
priorities? (or emotional reaction to them )
like self-hosting bit + customization part
high demand activities seems to fit to style of funding, but personally not so attached, didnāt personally experience the problem
manual - middle, nice
task board, a bit lower, whole new thing, probably very simple version, needs more thinking, probably better task boardsā¦ and we use discourseā¦ wonder if a simple solution is useful as itās missing features, or could be todo list or pad? havenāt thought about it, so less in favour
progressive interface, nice, a bit newer, could it be possible to enable editing view, even if youāre editorā¦ thinking about interfaces, makes sense
butze:
learning about it, canāt add much
progressive interface strikes me the most
others sound good
manual - people donāt read manuals, also I click away the interactive manuals
have 3 meetings tomorrow, canāt add anything to it, and low on energy so will not attend
legal entity [R]
Nick asked at a co-tech forum and got nice replies
Nick writes to the social change agency, and then weāll see how it goes
then we need a conversation with more people
question on the forum: what is the driver for us to do it
Nick thinks it is still about the allocation of money
alongside people were quite enthusiastic about Karrot - reminded Nick of āmarketing Karrotā
Nathalie:
didnāt connect with opencollective people yet
donāt know how much work it is to have own legal entity
looking at driver makes sense
hesistant with UK-based one, but very distributed around, but would put responsiblity on nick, and with position in team, question if itās the right way
how much do we want to rely on existing thing and use fiscal hosting?
time question? confirm with nlnet, and how it would work out from then
butze:
last time said most sustainable is to form own entity, was thinkingā¦
in groups where we formed own legal entities, actually not so much work to maintain them, most work is in ones headā¦ the thought of having to do a financial report, of having an entity you are responsible for, and canāt oversee all itās actions, puts a lot of stress on people
so maybe not most sustainable to found own entity, but maybe go first into fiscal host, with aim of how to be more financially secure, to enhance organisation, and next step for legal entity later on? could be wise to do
can be pressure having entity, are we doing things right
nick:
main thing stood out is better to understand the hestiantcy of Natalie
language thing is also crucial to think about. German legal entity was difficult for Nick, because others had to do the correspondence
Trustroots is a legal entity in England, although nobody lives in England. they do it remotly - we could do it similarly
it needs work to do because nobody else is doing it. Nick would like to not do it, but it needs to be pushed forward
nathalie:
it is true, you can use opencollective own legal entity
process feedback: would appreciate if notes would be put in one of the places, rather than using feedback as notes (as donāt usually look there)
can archive place types, and the places stay in the list
deciding if we want to have it you can still keep places with a place status that is archivedā¦ could make it an option to choose in the menu
donāt have a strong preference
not sure how it works with statistics/filtering
interesting itās the most complicated part of feature
butze:
question: what are places?
places are either the karrot representation of a local place, e.g. supermarket, a garden, etcā¦ has location, info about it, and communication feature (wall), and you can set activities for a place (they are always bound to a place), but also places can be like virtual places, like in our karrot group, we use it more like different channels (e.g. general, funding, development), have same features, walls, activitiesā¦ so e.g. when we have a call with external org, we tie it to our āoutreachā place
for more flexible in places, they can have different types, like categories, that you can self define
you could make types as fairshare point, supermarket, etcā¦
now discussing place status, e.g. is it co-operating or not, or another tag
every activity has a feedback feature, said earlier Iād rather not see notes in the feedback section, but in the wall of the corresponding place (e.g. general for notes)
also worth favouriting places that you like, and you get notifications about things in there, and they appear on your menu
for us they work like channels
nick:
differerence lays in the statuses (rather than the types)
it is hard to explain what the situation is (because it is to detailed and complicated)
nathalie:
have a little preference to remove the ambiguity
do you need to pick a new status? if somebody doesnāt do it, and there are hanging places? cleaning up mindset?
can you make them choose one?
activity bug fix [R]
different use cases that need to be supported
Nick made a change - it is a PR in progress
Daniel want to give Feedback right after the start time.
Now you can give feedback right from the start. But the feedback will be displayed after the meeting
nathalie:
nice to hear about the interaction between warsaw group and luxembourg, and the two people talking
sounds like a good solution
nice process
butze:
well done
christmas fun dev
playing with video calls \o/ with mediasoup prob
Announcements: Sent 4-pager about EU-Funding to the consultants. Sent the Thesis document to students (Butze) [R]
also had the shortcuts one in mind, donāt know if itās so helpful, but sometimes rely more on shortcuts, notice it especially when working on another tool, then switching to karrot
(All)
excited to contribute, getting people together from different countries, where could we go, working together, how to act together on a european level to spread/consolidate foodsharing, different iterations, with a basis of what we are doing in europe
)