Weekly call about Karrot development 2023

Date: 2023-06-13 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator:
Minutes: All
Participants: Nick, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 45mins from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Vas, Bruno
      • next Tuesday general:
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!:

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (8) ← increment each time it gets moved down
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • send over basis for CSA talk [Vas]

4. Discussion points

  • vite-based karrot frontend [R/E]
    • showed how it’s faster to yarn dev, slower to load initial page, faster to see changes
    • would be nice if other people that do code could try it out to see how it feels, before I commit to fully integrating it
    • would need a bunch more work to switch, tests, production, etc…
    • Bruno will try it out, maybe in co-working tomorrow, with instructions on how to do so
  • funding, now that we didn’t get nlnet [E]
    • boo :frowning:
    • a million reasons why it could have been, we asked for some feedback, guess they are overloaded
    • how to we move forward?
      • Bruno:
        • beg for money :slight_smile:
        • short term, keep looking for funding
        • longer term, building up some kind of CSX model, community-supported
      • Nick:
      • Bruno:
        • have a session to look at goals/strategies, funding might be something there, but also look at how to continue without funding
      • Nick:
        • thinking what a session could look like
        • maybe already involve some others from groups?

Next time:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • try out vite based setup [Bruno]
    • git pull
    • git switch change/vite
    • yarn
    • yarn dev

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-06-20 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Nathalie, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 45 min from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie
      • next Tuesday general: yes
        • Nathalie on vacation July 4
    • pick facilitator for next week: Vasilis

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (10) ← increment each time it gets moved down
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • send over basis for CSA talk [Vas]
  • try out vite based setup [Bruno]
    • git pull
    • git switch change/vite
    • yarn
    • yarn dev

4. Discussion points

  • community supported software talk [R]
    • link to presentation
    • 1:10h for the session, 25min presentation about Karrot
    • first presentation of the gathering
    • use metaphor of CSA to describe CSS
    • how can we contextualise this idea
    • member/user shift? scale?
    • participant discussion went in other direction than prepared questions
      • journalist cooperative
      • difficult to fund Karrot from the groups, they don’t have money and energy
    • lost a bit of energy during preparation process, wanted to include more sketches and drawing
    • it was recorded
    • do a post maybe?
    • Reaction
      • rich presentation, need to revisit
      • grateful that you did that!
      • interesting to see Understaffed - talk about bringing more people in?
      • thinking about change for Karrot, default would be to give money as now the default is to not give money
      • doing a bit of calculation and playing with numbers, ~30€/group?
    • reflection between Vas and Nick still need to happen
    • Vas will do research on CSA in the next time
  • Luxembourg barcamp registration [R/E]
  • funding that Nick shared [E]

Next:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • post to read databse change proposal again [Nathalie]
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • try out vite based setup [Bruno]
    • git pull
    • git switch change/vite
    • yarn
    • yarn dev

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-06-27 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Vasilis, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: up to the next hour that isn’t in less than 10 minutes
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • exploring commoning language and patterns
      • changing patterns in sofa
      • Nathalie applying for job at opencollective
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Bruno
      • next Tuesday general: INDEPENDENCE DAY!
        Nathalie on vacation July 4
    • pick facilitator for next week: Vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • post to read database change proposal again [Nathalie]
    • let’s take it to co-working tomorrow, maybe can consent, or just prepare

4. Discussion points

  • patterns and language of commons [R]

    • nice german site using fedwiki
    • free fair and alive book
    • care and decommodified work
    • feel inspired by … wait for it … drum roll … …
    • comments
      • Nick:
        • has a sense that this what we’re trying to do
        • would be interested in it more
      • Vas:
        • very distracted at this key moment
        • read David Bolliers book years ago, nice intro to commons
      • Bruno:
        • curious to look at new book, nice to see it online
        • many books, look similar, wondering what is substantial difference
        • very nice visuals
        • could be nice to look at the patterns/visuals, and what we’re doing that relates
        • could go deep into it, how to support the patterns as features in karrot
      • Nathalie:
        • nice to bring the topic here, didn’t expect to talk about it so much
        • do really like the visuals :slight_smile: used one for sociocracy presentation
        • quite clear link to self-organising governance
        • free, fair, and alive book mentions sociocracy and sofa
        • would love to see the cards in english
        • started reading free, fair, alive, takes a long time to read through a book though
          • tend to read relevant chapters then come back to relevant bits
          • have come back to the cards over time
  • opensociocracy / dual power app [R]

    • is there possibility for cooperation?
    • let’s see if there’s interest
    • same person doing OS and DPA, hard to understand the connection
    • opensociocracy:
      • very new, only started in may, so good on the networking so far
      • was part of a sociocratic organisation before, which is the motivation for building out
      • sociocracy and s3 are governance tools not software directly
      • there is a software tool called https://www.logbuch.org/, that is not open source
      • sofa and opensociocracy? sofa fosc circle connected to opensociocracy, not clear where that connection goes
    • fascinating how ideas can be separated by the social practise of them, big factor in reality is actual connections, we try and separated things, but personal connection important, need solid social connections
  • vision, strategy, new funding model, open collective, etc… [E]

    • funding fatigue, money from users/groups makes sense
    • should tie it into strategy
    • assume people are into that, but let’s check!
    • vibe has been waiting for funding…
    • clearer need for nick to make it financially viable, and for projects
    • nathalie also expressed need for more structured work
    • sense that we need a sense of direction from here, together
    • establishing pace of work and dedication
    • personally (bruno), would be nice to have another wave upwards, was hoping for it with nlnet application, but maybe not nercessary… depends on ability of people to dedicate time, and what funding means for that
    • strategy! would like to get things done now, a lot of potentials for fixing, maybe some new features, would need a funding model, would like to support others who need money, esp. nick, probably others too
    • could set a goal… e.g. do the opencollective thing, investigate more funding, work out different scenarios with or without funding…
    • happy to find more focus, and be supportive, although personally haven’t had so much karrot time lately
    • need to see if we align
    • Nick:
      • form the strategy, get clear on the money needs
      • what should work on next after the attachments? figure that out connected to a strategy
      • how do we make the strategy more tangible, in our practices. An agreement doc on Karrot? anyone motivated to work on it?
    • Vas:
      • key point is need to come up with a strategy, and test a model that’ll be sustainable for karrot, financially and ethically
      • funding fatigue experienced throughout life personally, not long term sustainable
      • have been thoughts in detail, but not the right time for that
      • on the same page as who is funding? in favour of it being funded by those directly using karrot
      • question remains how to do it, so far majority of groups don’t have other funding, so tricky there
    • Nathalie:
      • also like the idea of being funded by the users
      • although there are state funding schemes, can feel unfair to ask the people who work to get money to spend their money to spend other things, gets wierd thinking where money comes from… when there is big money pools somewhere
      • applying for funding that easy and puts us in a certain box
      • funded by the people!
      • interested in opencollective, still have open question about this “collective” term
      • one thing they solve is not having a legal entity, so they have fiscal hosts
      • to truly be a collective, what about our domain, who owns things, would be nice to have a collective solution for this, e.g. contact form for site, data privacy, etc. legalising karrot topic… how much does a fiscal host help? or would we need other legal forms?
      • commons theory is something that fits well with the group, and with karrot, would like to see a direction more clearly speak of it, karrot has had the food focus, then defoodification, but no clear focus to replace it, maybe commons is that focus… to be clearer who we are targetting… as maybe de-foodifcation lost the focus
    • Bruno:
      • financial models, totally in favour of long term finance by the people, doesn’t need to be users only
      • how do we make that viable long term, have to have time frames in mind, can’t achieve financial sustainability if we just go out to the groups now saying “we need money”, could be lucky, but not so much money willingness available already with this approach, would need a different scale to find those resources, maybe more groups, more people, bigger outreach, … becoming more commons-based project
      • still space for funding, esp. short/mid term, but not try to lose the vision of “we don’t need those fucking funding applications”, we can do this by ourselves! independently, collectively, democratically…
      • pragmatic approach, how can we make that happen
      • could jot things down on a document, maybe for next co-working? could do it together? during co-working or meeting? another pad, 5-10 minutes to write something down, separately? then bring together at the end… doesn’t need to take a lot of time, workshop format… half an hour… as quite aligned already in thoughts and values
      • could do something tomorrow?
      • also supporting idea of rethinking how we profile ourselves, “what is it for” now, had this general thing of “community organising”, if we connect more into theory and vocabulary, could go deeper into it, broaden our connections too, needs some investigating
    • Nick:
      • also felt we got lost after de-foodification, more towards commons
      • how much do the groups identify with commons?
      • funding by the people does not mean users only, also random people on the internet donating a couple of EUR/month would meet our needs because we have low costs
      • thing in August, a good place to start thinking together about strategy
      • also likes the idea of working on a document but not much time
    • Vas:
      • how much do the groups identify with the commons… we should investigate, so we don’t make something super exclusive, we already saw how some features on karrot don’t really fit the needs of the groups
      • not saying we shouldn’t pitch it towards commons, but is a spectrum, have to understand groups already use karrot for some specific tasks only, so not all encompassing project for them to everything within
      • if we position karrot within commons, we think of 3 basis, resources, rules, and community, and start building it in that direction, now, it does seem very much that
      • funding model, wasn’t thinking it could be other outside people, could be interesting, could also be organisations talking about commons, peer-to-peer advocating about technology, some of them are sustainable organisations, how about going door to door, you chat, we build :slight_smile: we don’t have money, you have it. how about donate, £50/month? groups, users, random people, institutions, research groups. SPONSORS!!!
      • up tomorrow in co-working to start writing some things down, then come back and check and discuss
      • even within food waste stuff, a lot of orgs chatting about food waste policy and role of technologies, have to examine what a sponsor, can be a patron, can lose agency… who are we accountable to
      • hybrid/flexible model, maybe not so easy now going to small groups telling them we need money, some of them might be yes, reward it, but maybe cannot, can write this stuff on a paper
    • Nathalie:
      • revisited the pricing model of maptio
      • thinking about process, would be good to gain feedback before making the final decision, in a structured way, could work on something, have a draft agreement, and we’d like to get money and how much would feel sustainable, agree expenses are not extremely high, so could work, wondering whether to address individuals or groups, thought to address groups first, and individuals could be additional, draft, numbers, calculations, and feedback channel
      • if there is money involved, and we say it’s still possible to use it without money, would it feel it’s not really for free, need a good frame to make clear they are really welcome to use it without contributing, but they can…
      • so, gather feedback and see if it feels like it’s a huge change, and feel stressed about it, … so to avoid it being a Big Announcement
  • follow up with recent feedback (Kranti, Daniel)

    • call poll fatigue
    • maybe one person just schedule something, and announce it for others, to avoid poll cycle
    • bruno up to do it
    • big groups is the thing
  • tech update [R]

    • attachments → review \o/
    • vite… ongoing
  • hanging application in karrot team

    • was hanging about for 2 months
    • declined without message :slight_smile:
  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]

    • let’s talk about it as an agenda item
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

  • read “Proposal B” on Proposal for making changes to the database based on user requests in the case of conflicts - HedgeDoc if you want, will discuss it more next week for consent [anyone, or no-one]

  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

  • funding that Nick shared [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • review database change proposal in co-working [attendees of co-working]
  • start drafting strategy in co-working [attendees of co-working]
  • schedule call with Kranti [Bruno]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-07-04 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Everyone
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h, then check
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Bruno needs to get rid of some bread
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Bruno, Vas
      • next Tuesday general: Nick, Bruno is travelling, might make it
    • pick facilitator for next week: ?

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • tech [R]
    • changes on vite branch
      • showing new image selection for profile images, as getting rid of vue2 compatability mode, and vue-croppa is vue2 only… and needed replacing anyway
    • attachments
      • merged to dev now
      • a few points from Bruno to address before deployment
      • mostly to make it so it doesn’t only open camera on mobile
      • one lingering thing is the download button shows above the right sidebar
      • wondering how groups will receive the new attachment
      • how to find files might be a future feature
      • … then do people want full document editing
      • … if karrot were just to become a generic chat and file platform, it’s probably not interesting enough, or worth it
      • better focusing on what we offer that is not available elsewhere… which is why it’s useful for groups now
      • getting clearer about our value proposal
      • SMS group/feature? understanding interacting with people in core vs periphery
      • peripheral people probably only can interact using the channel/method they already use, e.g. sms, or whatsapp, email, etc…
      • now looking at whatsapp api → GitHub - tulir/whatsmeow: Go library for the WhatsApp web multidevice API :slight_smile:
    • Brunos new sidenav?
      • trying to implement profile picture and the name
      • tricky part with difference between composition API and options API
      • could either get support, or leave it for Nick to complete
      • probably would take too long to figure it out alone, as have to go back to some basics
      • could have it bruno working, me watching/supporting, or me working and bruno shadowing, or me just doing it
      • best one is bruno to watch me code on it, and learn a bit
      • Nick would like to wait to get vite branch merged, as it’s nicer to work with…
    • next thing up?
      • how to choose what to work on next?
      • bruno has some ideas!
      • add a “Next up” column to the board…
      • add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group
      • @-mention bell notification doesn’t bring you to the message
        • small fix would be for if the notification doesn’t even bring you to the right conversation
          • confirmed: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
        • navigating to the actual message needs bigger changes
          • backend: different pagination to fetch “around” a particular messgae/date and have 2 ended pagination
          • frontend: a 2 ended infinite scroll component (quasar is only 1 directional)
      • autonomous flow state is sometimes very useful for doing stuff, and hard to put into a process
      • user → product → development flow… user observation is not enough on it’s own often, needs to be put in wider context of the product
  • 1/5/10 visions [R]
    • Weekly Co-working on Karrot
    • started drafting during the co-working
    • the framing was “where would you like Karrot to be in 1/5/10 years?”, then worked on it by themselves
    • bruno likes the ideas so far :slight_smile:
  • feedback session with Kranti and Daniel [R]
  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
    • let’s talk about it as an agenda item
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • for co-working tomorrow:
    • add a “Next up” column to the board…
    • add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group to board
    • add to wall: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
  • bruno will write a 1/5/10 thing: “where would you like karrot to be in 1, 5, and 10 years?”, about half an hour

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-07-11 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes:
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • for co-working tomorrow:
    • add a “Next up” column to the board…
    • add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group to board
    • add to board: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
  • bruno will write a 1/5/10 thing: “where would you like karrot to be in 1, 5, and 10 years?”, about half an hour

4. Discussion points

  • tech
    • feedback about vite branch [E]
      • needs more beta-testing
    • feedback about attachment niggles [E]
      • reviewed by Bruno and working
    • next up? [E/D]
      • issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group
      • marking messages read in sidebar thread
      • delay in accepting applications
      • a bigger topic?
        • maybe a separate point to discuss next meeting
        • how about limiting pickups?
        • a selection process?
          • something from the board, make candidates clear, and think of a nomination
          • so, do a round, nominate, hear reasons, … could change nomination after hearing it
          • … then another round, then faciliator takes one nomination and checks for consent
          • … can still object if needed, and go round again
          • one for more discussion, one for development
  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
    • let’s talk about it as an agenda item
    • Vasilis is deciding how long this topic will stay in the agenda
  • barcamp Luxembourg check-in [R]
    • Nick and Vas got accepted! \o/
    • Nick not totally confirmed, still pending some boat stuff
    • discuss when to book in co-working
  • database change proposal consent [D]
  • vision, strategy, etc [E]
  • contact to mariha: what can we offer? [E]
    • Nathalie, Bruno and Vas continue conversation
    • check with Vas
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-07-18 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick/ Bruno
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1:30
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick on his own doing solo working, maybe Vas?
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • Luxembourg travels [R]

    • Daniel offered to host Nick for a couple of extra nights, Nick will confirm today/tomorrow
    • coordinate with Vas to be in Zurich
    • Nathalie aiming to book travel today, or very soon, friday → sunday in lux
  • feedback session with Kranti and Daniel [R]

    • notes over at Karrot Community Cafe Notes - #2 by nicksellen
    • general enthusiasm and talk both about feature and exchange of experiences in community organising in general
    • one idea that came up: giving trust connected to after doing activities.
    • What now? How to do a follow-up
    • add stuff to the board and have an active discussion
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

  • Next step development - selection process [D]

    • what are the criteria for choosing something?
      • something that I (Nick) can start coding immediately
      • nice to have support from a user perspective
      • connected to a clear need
      • be able to contribute
      • what’s important for the groups
    • Vas: Feedback feature / no change
    • Bruno: Display of Activities / Feedback feature
    • Nathalie: Feedback feature / no change
    • Nick: Feedback feature / no change
      —> Feedback feature
      Feedback feature - Possibility to combine comments for selected activity type
  • nlnet feedback and next [R/E]

    • asked for feedback and they sent us their notes
    • question about it being too tech-centric
    • how to keep the accountability if we apply again
    • maybe our last application was too broad/fragmented to make sense of
    • happy to have a smaller and more coherant story in another application
    • dev power… theoretical danger of centring tech focus and people (well, person)
    • getting clearer over time, nick having more financial needs of developer, and fair to reflect in funding
    • making it more techie needs nick
    • vasilis happy to do 2 co-working sessions to support it
    • august 1st deadline, a tuesday
    • timeframe to allow looking at a final application as a team, allow that…
    • consent to doing another application reached from nathalie, nick, vas (bruno had left)
  • deployment this week [R]

    • attachments and more invisible work
    • Bruno’s done a bit of testing, will do more
    • maybe new mobile sidenav too? ready to merge? sure!
      • remove the duplicated entries on end of side nav, only log out left
      • new buttons, highlighting… highlighted if you’re on the page, otherwise not
        • message one has highlighting depending on unread/unseen messages
    • wanna go for a beer later?
    • nick remembering the niggle about the mention notification to a wall thread…
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E] → didn’t talk about it

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-07-25 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Vas, Nick, Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: on the hour + 1
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • nick will need to run a power cable part way through the meeting
      • in 2 weeks Bruno will be back to usual routine, and more likely to join co-working, and increase karrot work
      • nathalie won’t be available next week
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: nick, vas
      • next Tuesday general: nick, vas, maybe bruno, nathalie away
    • pick facilitator for next week: vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • deployment happened [R]
    • issue with postal, Tillman fixed a nicer setup
    • new things
    • a lot of changes behind the scenes
    • some more apparent: sidenav, attachments
  • proposal for new nlnet application [RED]
    • Overview - HedgeDoc
    • previous application Application to NLnet Entrust
    • Vas:
      • general feedback about 3 categories, looks a bit like “incorporating features for improving community organising” as an overarching umbrella title, perhaps good for the proposal
      • we do have quite a lot of input and intel from the groups already to play around with these categories of features
      • do have more comments… about the process…
    • Bruno:
      • I like. in terms of the work we want to do, makes a lot of sense
      • wonder whether it will be something nlnet will see as relevant and worthy as funding, still a bit dubious, as going by the feedback they gave, they seem more focused on the tech itself, be new, and about federation, etc. from the call, it could be focused on privacy, and if we try to connect the work and frame in the way the call asks, could do it a bit differently: how can users of a software application generate heathly communities, as opposed to the big tech approach, problems of governance and moderation, one possible way to frame it. show a different way to do it, and that is the innovative aspect.
      • however we send it in, feels worth a shot
    • Nathalie:
      • wondering if in the right mindset for thinking about it
      • agree with Vas about the topic framing
      • was expecting to see something with activitypub still, so surprised, not sad, the chosen topics are well aligned with what we’ve done previously, and with what the groups need, and that we know quite a lot about the topics
      • having the nlnet funding might give us the magic motivation to progress the features
      • seems focused and coherent
      • open question, as bruno says, about how aligned it is with what nlnet are asking for
    • Nick:
      • feels like it makes sense, a continuation of our energy and what we’ve done so far
      • originally wrote about Activitypub but then saw the number of public activities and saw there was not much. Did not feel justifiable
      • found the three topics on the board, inside his head and soul
      • so far they’re written as dev tasks. Anyone wanting to do more on it? Speak now or shut up forever
    • Vas:
      • super happy to proceed with something development-centric, worth discussing if it’s breaking the working together kind of community vibes, as it’s quite nick-centric, I would consent, but worth bringing into the equation, compared to how we’ve been working so far
      • e.g. working through co-working sessions, design sessions, reporting back, etc…
      • don’t feel danger, but feel it’s worth bringing it up
      • for the application, could definitely help out writing the justification, it’s not just things we imagined, but things we have data on, a couple of paragraphs on that
      • in real implementation of features, not sure if we need much more research, not sure if I have energy to ask the groups, e.g. how would they imagine a poll
    • Bruno:
      • don’t see it as being very development/nick-centric, and don’t think it should be, there is a lot we supporting work, and design
      • looking at the 3, the one that needs less thought or research is the polls, then sanctions we we discussed a lot, although still need a lot of design there, where to initiative them, etc… last would be custom group roles and permission system, a huge area to explore there
      • could even involve more people, from the community, from the groups, maybe some quick sessions to work on it, see who is interested
      • going back to more straight forward one… thinking of the polls, could be dynamic work, if nick starts working, will come up with questions, sketches, … a little process that we can all engage in as a team
      • custom group roles and permission system, could even do a more elaborate design session on it
      • up for that, interested in the topics, all of them, depends on what others want to do, and how we co-ordinate, nathalie has shown interest for custom roles, big overlap with sociocracy
      • some async design sessions for them, can see myself involved in the work
    • Nathalie:
      • also think there is a lot of room for group feedback processes
      • as nick is mainly pushing it, how would I approach it, e.g. the sprint patterns. we noticed different sizes of the sprint. community design process. we had done a rather short one, with us gathering ideas, open for feedback, but not waiting for it, still a good framework to progress a feature. particularly in the beginning there is a lot of space to think together, and limitations of what is possible to implement in the code, and later gets narrowed down.
      • not too worried about it
      • 3 points are like a committment of the things we’d like to focus on and progress
      • drifted off thinking about my own interested in technology and social things, noticing that I’d like to be more technical, helping groups organised, those parts covered in sociocracy work. wondering what is the role of software? would rather get more involved in the logic of the software, not so much the social parts of it. so wondering about my place. doesn’t mean the application to stop.
    • Nick:
      • a lot of support but how to make it tangible, make it into tasks?
      • a bit of frustration on how to give birth to everything we’ve been thinking about
      • maybe application is not fully aligned with our way of working, our processes, like pushing now for what to put in the application
      • could do something with the input given so far, would like to have something tangible but will be a bit explorative
    • Consent round
      • Vas: object, open question from nick about who is willing to do what, suggestion would be to keep user research to a minimum, but maybe still as a task, so it’s one of the steps, so gives a balance, prior work we did, e.g. interpretation of data we collected already, so maybe design sessions are between the 4 of us, then nick and tilmann take over and do the development
      • Bruno: consent, to use that pad as a basis, if I understand it correctly, not as a ready application, but as a basis for how to proceed
      • Nathalie: wondering if there is an implication for myself, or something I need to commit to, seems like nick, and others are motivated enough, so consent.
      • Nick: object. wouwoullsd like clearer understanding of what I’m putting in the application about others involvement. looking for support from others to formulate this other non-dev-specific stuff.
      • Bruno: able to follow up and input
      • Vas: up for formualting it together
      • Nathalie: wouldn’t commit to a task, so count me out, might participate in design sessions as they come up
    • new consent round with mods
      • Vas: consent
      • Bruno: consent
      • Nathalie: consent
      • Nick: consent
  • connecting with likeminded initiatives [E]
    • someone that joined: “WhatsCookin, now doing decentralized trust under cooperation.org, interested in how you guys are doing things”
  • bonfire, mutual advisors? [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Nick and Vas to proceed on Overview - HedgeDoc with support from Bruno
    • start in co-working tomorrow

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-08-08 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Joe
Minutes:
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h total
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: yes!
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: hopefully Vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • Nick and Vas to proceed on Overview - HedgeDoc with support from Bruno
    • start in co-working tomorrow

4. Discussion points

  • foodsharing czech email and again
    • Nathalie: looking for someone to reply
    • Nick: I just write the code man
    • → Bruno will reply
  • tech updates
  • how was the meeting with FOSC [R]
  • connecting with likeminded initiatives [E]
    • someone that joined: “WhatsCookin, now doing decentralized trust under cooperation.org, interested in how you guys are doing things”
    • how to create a more collaborative community network, not just siloed
    • doesn’t nercersaily mean working together on the same tool, what are the best approaches to create sense of connection and collaboration?
    • usually built on trust and interest, constant keeping in touch
    • how to build this trust and friendship
    • bonfire, hylo, others?
    • recognise diversity, with separate projects if it makes sense
    • many levels to co-operate, funding, design, concepts, exchanging knowledge and experience
    • bonfire, mutual advisors?
    • difficult to make networking substantial, easy to say to make network, but how to embed it
    • networks → federation across projects, mission, higher concepts
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • answer e-mail Czech (Bruno)
  • read through notes of call with FOSC (Bruno)
  • karrot team to look at 2nd notes, about dimensions and proposal forming, and bring it to group discussion :slightly_smiling_face: (All)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-08-15 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Vasilis
Minutes: Vas and all
Participants: Vasilis, Bruno, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h30
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working:
      • next Tuesday general:
    • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno?

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • server! [R]
    • awareness to the situation
    • karrot runs on manitu, the same since the whole beginnng
    • memory ram is all the way to the top
    • swp should be 0 usually but our swp is permanently full that affects general Karrot performance
    • get a server then?
    • 50 euros a month would get a fast. significantly faster and energy efficient (eco friendly?)
    • chat through with tilman on that. we might keep the old server and split. if the one goes down the other can still work. more resilient.
    • could we be sponsored by any company maybe? (bruno)
    • there might be some optimisation, but cpus are 14y old, disk spinning for 7-8 years
    • upgrating the server within manitu? (bruno)
    • hetzner could be good alternative
    • how urgeful is it? gets increasingingly painful. can get slow 1st load especially
    • server co-diagnosis first with tilman
    • consired the fixed cost that we never had
    • ‘if cant afford 50 a month we are dead anyway’
  • lux removal? action and email [E]
  • luxembourg intentions? [E]
    • you all have great time and u feel that you make new connections and deepen some existing ones, energy giving and inspiring (bruno)
    • connecting with the Karrot team ppl that would be there is a key thing. 3 in the same place is a record. A bit of time for reflections, wanna flow with the conf topics, things look interesting but prefer to flow, place is sourrounded by a forest, enjoying the nature would be nice
    • doesn’t remember much of the workshops either, so would also like to go with the flow. Just have a chat with people about Karrot. Go into the forest and river (if there’s one)
    • one thing is to chat with people that do use Karrot. There are two groups there organizing that use Karrot so should be poeple there
    • some interesting workshops to watch
      • Nathalie’s on sociocracy
      • on conflicts
      • on racism
      • on dragon dreaming
    • potentially do something about Karrot on the open space, like a look behind the scenes
  • CSX explorations [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

List of ideas

  • making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
  • future roadmap, plan
    • general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
  • in-person meeting \o/
  • ‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
    • bank account/ legal structure, open collective
  • governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
  • Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
  • sociocracy and Karrot
  • how sociocracy could support groups
  • idea of commons
    • if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items?
  • finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
    • outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
  • re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
  • a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
  • Privacy Policy
  • agreement feature and group governance [Nathalie]

Date: 2023-08-25
Present: Nick, Tilmann

Admin:

  • check-in
  • duration: 1h

Agenda:

  • server stuff!
    • noticed memory and swap was full
    • karrot was getting very slow at times
    • I turned off a bunch of non-essential services
    • memory went down, and it got fast again
    • over time, memory went up again
    • wonder if uvicorn is spawning multiple workers, when we already have multiple services, but no config set for doing that
    • lots of unoptimized queries
      • accepting applications is slow
    • person in poland triggering feedback API seemed to cause server to be very slow
      • was unclear
    • https://yuca-admin.yunity.org/ has some system stats
    • swapping on HDDs is bad
    • should have SSD anyway
    • having two servers would increase the maintenance effort
    • could observe different ways of running it
      • switch back to daphne, and see how it is after a week
      • switch forward to uvicorn with workers instead of multiple systemd services
    • something in week 32 caused disk io wait to go up quite a lot, and disk io
      • which is around the time I deployed some “performance optimisations”
      • including query caching (django-cachelot)
      • maybe has increased memory usage, and then swap usage, as we don’t have memory capacity
    • gunicorn can preload workers, to share some memory using --preload command
    • tonight make some changes
      • disable django cachealot
      • switch to uvicorn with 8 workers (LISTEN_CONCURRENCY) 1 systemd service
    • also what to do with dream of fresh server? and SSD
    • ask manitu if we can upgrade to SSDs
    • we tried gunicorn reload_app
      • but maybe because it’s wsgi-specific, it didn’t really do it… would need more investigation
  • maybe life updates?
    • no time for life updates

Actions:

  • Tilmann: contact manitu to ask about SSDs
  • Nick: disable django-cachelot, and switch uvicorn config

Tech backlog:

  • investigate how to ensure gunicorn preload_app is doing something (potential to reduce memory usage)
  • regular tech co-working?

Date: 2023-08-29 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: Random people
Participants: Nick, Philip, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h15
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • have a burst of capitalist work in coming weeks (nick)
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: yes! Nick, Bruno, Nathalie for a while
      • next Tuesday general: yes
      • FOSC call also next Tuesday: happening!
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • read through notes of call with FOSC (Bruno, Vasilis, all)
    • karrot team to look at 2nd notes, about dimensions and proposal forming, and bring it to group discussion :slightly_smiling_face: (All)
    • Vas and Bruno looked at in the co-working
    • nick did nothing
  • e-mail to Luxemburg asking for ‘feedback’ on memberhsip review process (vas, bruno) https://community.karrot.world/t/request-to-remove-people-from-our-karrot-group/1272/2?u=bruno <-draft
    • was sent! no reply yet, maybe needs a poke
  • server co-diagnosis first with tilman (Nick)

4. Discussion points

  • say hi to butze [R/E]
    • curious motivation and intentions
    • once upon a time…
    • join yunity 8 years ago, not coding
    • wondering what possiblities the platform gives to supporting sustainability
    • frustrated after 2 years, not wanting to do things with foodsharing, but am again now
    • lots going on in Siegen, focused on local community
    • unsatifying though, want bigger visions and bigger leverages for change
    • this summer to reconnect with foodsharing international, permaculture scene, Fuchsmühle community (Germany) ← thanks!
    • bigger global/national ideas!
    • enjoy working and talking with Nick \o/ :partying_face:
    • thrilled that after 8 years it’s still running, very reflective people, really trying to find out how to build up infrastructures for this utopian world
    • have ideas about sharing and caring, if we don’t pick up trash, make our own software… will lead nowhere
    • want to see what is possible to weave into academia, vasilis has been writing about CSS (community supported software)
    • got a new post-growth professor, wants to write a proposal for CSX
    • intriuged by karrot or think to join? intention to contribute, would like to join again and see how to fit in
    • would be nice to discuss at some point one of butze’s papers, around digital tools to empower community
      • how to bring karrot to the stage it’s very user friendly, and low barrier to join
      • network effect of tools people already use, telegram, etc. hard to surpass this
      • they have so much money to make it user friendly, hard to achieve that level
      • if interested to jump in more, could run tests in siegen to see what works/what not
    • for now, find a way in, and see how it goes, following curiosity, and where something fits, curious about vasilis’ CSS
  • more exploration of luxembourg [E]
    • travel costs Luxembourg (Nathalie) [D]
      • Nathalie expense: 79,25€, paid by academy
      • also Nathalie got paid for the workshop (300€)
      • → I’d like to give something to Karrot, as see it as a karrot trip
      • could pay some with Karrot money
      • time to ask for things if needed!
      • nick’s travel costs are around 150EUR, karrot money? or ask organisers?
        • Bruno: should definately get refunded, tend to think the party that has more finances should do it, not sure if that’s the organisation or karrot, not sure on the finances of the event, but don’t want discomfort if having to ask around, so good to just go with karrot money
          • and for Nathalies, nice to offer contribution to Karrot, no obligation though, so feel welcome
        • Nathalie: not sure if received a form to fill out, can support Nick with form filling out, just needs bill (bus ticket, with price), happy to help. which entity has more money? event has money! definately try and get the 30EUR, could imagine asking for more, quite far, and with open space session, see what they say, and refund rest from karrot money
          • for myself, can decide
    • follow ups
      • foodsharing europe? Karrot and foodsharing.de could be both part of it
        • used to be foodsaving worldwide, forum & Karrot with different focuses
        • foodsharing International within foodsharing - what does it do?
        • Karrot is a software project, could have a relationship
      • next barcamp
        • October deadline for Erasmus+ funding, another deadline in March
      • academic work
        • Philip and Vas and other people to collaborate
      • round of reflections/thoughts/comments
        • Bruno:
          • quite excited about idea of foodsharing europe
          • also see it as a separate thing from karrot and previous foodsaving worldwide, foodsaving international in foodsharing.de
          • more like a federation/community, find it’s own governance structure, governing body?
          • get a bunch of people together with experiences from diferent contexts, including me :slight_smile: excited to contribute, getting people together from different countries, where could we go, working together, how to act together on a european level to spread/consolidate foodsharing, different iterations, with a basis of what we are doing in europe
          • sounds like a really nice idea
          • regarding luxembourg/barcamp thing, heard a lot from Nick already, curious to hear how to was from butze/nathalie, was it fun! what was exciting?
          • another thing Nick mentioned, when talking about tech circle, also had mentioned a few people that might be interested in development work for karrot, maybe start having some dev sessions could be a space to invite curious devs to join
        • Nathalie:
          • had a good time at the barcamp! outstanding point was haven’t been in a “networking mode” for a long time, only having online meetings, which can be such an effort, networking side opened up a bit, met a lot of people, combined with knowing a lot of foodsharing people, lots of chats about that
          • finding my place holding a sociocracy workshop in person, want to do some reflections/improvements, a lot of interest in sociocracy, made me happy, very nice!
          • mostly in connecting mode, still curious, particularly about luxembourg, interested in karrot and sociocracy, review his notes about maybe switching to foodsharing, want to engage more, want to find out which features would help them to stay
          • how to combine sociocracy and karrot, sometimes not a perfect fit, how to make karrot a tool that a sociocractic group can use, through the lens of foodsharing luxembourg
          • didn’t join the visioning sessions
          • academic work is quite interesting, e.g. how CSX is getting in there, was enthusiastic on reading about it, feels like Vas is very skilled there, with uni background, not sure on my entrypoint, but interested to read more and read more papers from butze and vas, a big sympathy to academic work
          • foodsharing europe, sounds nice, something karrot team is not driving, but can be part of, e.g. sending a delegate to it, rather than being the new focus of karrot
          • a bit fuzzy though, some concerns about super bodies and how they would work, enjoy the seed though, and connection with luxembourg and belgium, makes more sense to work with foodsharing groups and being international rather than foodsharing.de driving it
          • not sure about thoughts on future barcamps, not sure about the connection and/or funding, we could do with funding, don’t have karrot legal infrastructure to do things ourselve, maybe a chance to do a subproject within it?
          • was orgianising festival for a couple of years and enjoyed that, so could step into it, not sure what would need to be in place to get involved, unclear right now
        • Butze:
          • connecting communities, new paper out now! by katie, published 2 weeks ago in CSCW (computer supported collaborative work), have access to paper, looked at copenhagen and stockholm collaborations: Learning from Other Communities: Organising Collective Action in a Grassroots Food-sharing Initiative | Computer Supported Cooperative Work (CSCW)
          • enjoyed the barcamp very much, beautiful scenary! was reminded of yunity events of highly motivated people coming together, everyone trying to be fully present and collaborate, exchange, network, very much enjoy this!
          • coming back to siegen, gives a nice reflection point, have been at a humus festival, foodsharing, repair cafe, workshop workshop, free shop, etc… 40 people everybody contributing, … but it’s ultimately just an event that people come to, and not so much about the daily life of people
          • that’s the tension, also for foodsharing international event, is nice to go meet nice people, talk, dream… but how to bring it into daily life
          • 8 years ago thought we could do it in half a year, but know wiser and know it takes time, but we are 8 years wiser, and potential, e.g. foodsharing europe, to bring together local acting and global/europe thinking, one-issue based community
          • very nice informal chats, very nice workshops, nice food
          • if events like this would occur more often would have really good and lasting networking events… knowing how hard it is to organise and get funding, etc… would be nice that those that showed intention and effort to organise join forces
        • Nick:
          • more interconnected things
          • in dragon dreaming: dreaming, planning, doing, celebrating
          • sometimes it’s nice to start with the celebrating, that’s what the barcamp was
          • now comes the dreaming
          • interested not about foodsharing but through foodsharing, learned about self-organization and community building
          • how to unleash potential from the foodsharing groups?
      • tangible next steps?
        • Bruno:
          • follow up with Daniel, or anyone else that was keen on foodsharing europe emergence
        • Nathalie:
          • look into Luxembourg situation more closely, re: foodsharing and sociocracy
          • nice to stay in touch with Bianca, would also be informed about potential next funding steps to jump on funding train :steam_locomotive::steam_locomotive::steam_locomotive::steam_locomotive::steam_locomotive::steam_locomotive::moneybag::moneybag::moneybag::moneybag:
        • Butze:
          • was writing an email to Stefan, to see if he’s interested to look into proposal to build up a project for foodsharing as a catalyst for further sustainable food practises (gardening, cooking, etc), didn’t have his email, so sent it to international email address of barcamp would be glad to have it
          • ask nathalie if she wants to give sociocracy workshop in sigen for foodsharing cafe group
          • ask Daniel if he can faciliate dragon dreaming with core people in Siegen
          • thinking to ask foodsharing akadaamidemidemieie, funding for foodsharing cities partnerships, connecting with a foodsharing group in the south of Berlin
        • Nick:
          • follow-up call with Daniel, invite to general Karrot call
          • Bianca getting ideas for funding oppertunities for Karrot
          • new group starting in Belgium
          • write something in pad, re-read email from Bianca
          • chatting more with Ka (who did racism workshop)
  • server update [RD]
    • SSD upgrade, 59EUR per disk (2, so 120EUR)
    • request to authorize budget
    • Bruno: yay, consent!
    • Nathalie: is it one time cost? yes. confirm with tilmann. consent!
    • Nick: consent!
  • FOSC explore dimensions and proposals of team [E]
    • not a lot of time now, but can also continue next week in the meeting
    • previously formed an ad-hoc group for brainstorming with the 2 karrot people (nick, nathalie), and 2 SoFA people (john, jane)
    • exploration in sociocracy can be very wide, so instead of jumping into proposals directly, explore the dimensions of it
    • minutes from last time
    • Nathalie to faciliate a dimension exploring section
    • Dimensions of the proposal (“what about…?”):
      • Who is currently on the team?
      • How is membership recorded?
      • How do we visualize/show this team?
      • Different ways you want to understand membership on the Karrot project?(forms of membership, levels of involvement)
      • How does membership relate to the whole governance structure for Karrot?
      • What are the powers of membership?
      • What qualities do you want to have for members?
      • How does someone become a member?
      • How do you end your membership/stop being a member?
      • What would it (the ‘team’) be called?
    • Reactions
      • What is out of scope of membership? E.g. Collaboration?
      • What would it (the ‘team’) be called? - added
      • good list of dimensions
      • keeping in mind ideas what the whole governance structure for Karrot could be, what other kind of rights and commitments in relation to Karrot, connected to CSS
    • Next steps
  • move karrot mastodon account away from fosstodon [ED]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
  • money amounts from september onwards (Nathalie) [D] ← could also do this next time

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • nick pay himself for this month :slight_smile: [Nick]
  • nick to ask Bianca for guidance on money, if decide to pay from karrot money, has consent to receive travel costs [Nick]
  • Bruno has a draft Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc continue tomorrow in co-working [Bruno + co-working participants?]
  • review proposal in next meeting and bring it to FOSC call [all]
  • post-luxembourg connections [all]
  • follow up SSD upgrade [Nick]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-09-05 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Butze, Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Bruno
      • next Tuesday general: yes
    • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • nick pay himself for this month :slight_smile: [Nick]
  • nick to ask Bianca for guidance on money, if decide to pay from karrot money, has consent to receive travel costs [Nick]
  • Bruno has a draft Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc continue tomorrow in co-working [Bruno + co-working participants?]
  • review proposal in next meeting and bring it to FOSC call [all]
  • post-luxembourg connections [all]
  • follow up SSD upgrade [Nick]

4. Discussion points

  • had a chat with bianca and beata [R]

    • Framapad semestriel
    • talk about Karrot: for her it’s easier to start there but then it becomes harder when the group grows and becomes more complex
    • Erasmus funding… One in march, perhaps Karrot could participate
    • Bianca might join a Karrot meeting. Daniel too at some point in the future
    • Brings up some ideas about federation
    • we’re all fine with Nick having a one-on-one talk, but there’s also interest in having a group conversation too at some point
    • Nathalie:
      • a bit overwhelmed with new structures
      • unsure how sociocracy would adapt to this context (at least it’s a big project)
      • nice to keep connection with Bianca
      • more interested in concrete next event than foodsharing erope idea
    • Bruno:
      • idea of foodsharing europe still motivates me, aware of dynamics between people I don’t know
      • perhaps some new blood can create some new dynamics
      • size of groups using karrot topic is interesting, would be worth focusing and putting energy there
      • like federation idea, nice if connected to a real need, if done together with other groups, e.g. see what people in foodsharing.de think, can be useful
    • Nick:
      • lots of potential, in person meeting, shared motivation turns into effective organising
      • lean towards sociocracy, comes up everywhere
      • potential in dragon dreaming
      • strcutures in foodsharing seem to be exhausting, karrot as a liberation from that, trying things in a different way
      • more potential than action at the moment, people feel potential in themselves
      • playing a part in this
      • for Nathalie: relief to not handle foodsaving emails any more?
    • Butze:
      • crucial: what is the narrative? not only foodsharing europe, story for future vision
      • very exciting
      • agrees to many points that where said before
    • Nathalie:
      • important to have a good fit for the people in the group, rather than create the idea of the structure then take a long time to fill it
      • feels less overwhelming starting with a smaller group
      • not motivated to build something that lacks the people
    • Summarising next step
      • keeping the connection with Bianca and Beata, formulate invite for karrot call, and continue conversation
  • review proposal membership policy Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc

    • round to summarise impressions and anything to work on before the evening
    • Nick:
      • happy to see it come to some answers
      • in session tonight get someting to consent to in Karrot
      • good enough - topics can get big
      • close to being able to define that
    • Bruno:
      • reached a point with it having written the draft, cannot go forward without more input
      • agree with nick about the general feeling with it, getting something good enough for now, and iterative process, can review it further in the future
    • Butze:
      • good step for defining who contributes or not, reminds me of our telegram groups for communal projects, there was always the need to get people out of the group who are not contributing, e.g. where you have 40 people in group and only 5 answer a poll
      • also thinking of formal association we formed in Siegen, principle is people can take part in all initiatives without being a member, seems important to keep in mind
      • the more you formalise you form an unregistered legal entity, an unregistered Verein in germany
    • Nathalie:
      • on formal side, this is more like an FAQ so far Q → A, maybe nice to have a text without the questions, just a statement
      • page on forum → Karrot Community | People
        • how to you get on the page?
      • how much to have it inside the karrot group (approved role?)
      • generally a good start and coherent thing
      • was in our heads before, and matches what we discussed and think
      • gets more blurry with the wider / other types, relating to CSS? unsure of concept of contributors who are not in governance structure, lots of open questions
      • happy to focus on the karrot team
      • nice to send an email to FOSC so they can see it beforehand
    • Nick:
      • community page: group on discourse that defines that page, customized page
      • potentially inside Karrot, could even manually add custom roles
    • Bruno:
      • I’m fine with the text as it is to be sent
    • Butze:
      • a formalized text, looks like a kind of legal text out of it, clear words and meaning,
      • offer to help formulate it into a clear legal-style form :slight_smile:
    • Nathalie:
      • fine as it is, end of explore phase, not seeing it as a ready proposal, but something to take into the meeting
      • still wonder how much these other types of affiliation will be included or not, something we can chat about later
      • happy to leave it where it is now, send it to FOSC and continue later this evening
    • little intro to butze about sociocracy FOSC circle
  • move karrot mastodon account away from fosstodon [ED]

  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

  • money amounts from september onwards (Nathalie) [D] ← could also do this next time

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • nick to ask Bianca for guidance on money, if decide to pay from karrot money, has consent to receive travel costs [Nick]
  • write to Biana with summary of what we said, and next steps invite to call [Nick]
  • send our karrot membership thing to FOSC [Nathalie]
  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Appendix

What the letters mean

[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision

List of ideas

  • making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
  • future roadmap, plan
    • general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
  • in-person meeting \o/
  • ‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
    • bank account/ legal structure, open collective
  • governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
  • Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
  • sociocracy and Karrot
  • how sociocracy could support groups
  • idea of commons
    • if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items?
  • finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
    • outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
  • re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
  • a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
  • Privacy Policy
  • agreement feature and group governance [Nathalie]

Date: 2023-09-12 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Butze, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1.5h
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nick busy with other work
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: yes! Bruno, Nathalie, Nick (maybe)
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: we’ll see!

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • nick to ask Bianca for guidance on money, if decide to pay from karrot money, has consent to receive travel costs [Nick]
  • write to Bianca with summary of what we said, and next steps invite to call [Nick]
  • send our karrot membership thing to FOSC [Nathalie]
  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]

4. Discussion points

  • deployment! [R]
    • consolidated feedback arrived
    • all features free for everyone!
    • doesn’t apply approved role through :frowning:
    • please contact us if you want to be approved
    • statistics now faster
    • more changes which improve Karrot overall
    • check this for details: Karrot release updates - #15 by nicksellen
    • Q?: How do we reach out to groups about the ‘approved role’?
      • it might make sense just to write to people, make it more personal
      • long term goal to make it available
      • no campaign around it now
      • explore in the future, also connected to NLnet application
    • thank you and very nice!
  • money amounts from september onwards (Nathalie) [D]
    • agreement: Karrot or Money distribution in Karrot
    • previous [€]/ new [€]
    • Bruno: 200/ 200
    • Nathalie: 150/ 200
    • Nick: 500/ 300
    • Vas: 230/ 230
    • Butze: 0, maybe even contribute
    • term: 2 months (sep, oct), review end of october
    • bank account: 10 875€
    • general throughts
      • longterm financial future of Karrot
      • how does it relate to the CSS idea
      • what about NLnet funding
      • other avenues of funding
      • decide for Vas to continue with same amount
    • consented!
    • financial future
      • many possibilities, hopeful but not counting on it
      • push further CSS model
      • takes time to be financial sustainable
      • be open for other funding oppertunities
      • we currently need around 1k/month so it’s manageable
      • likes the idea of need growing in proportion with income
      • a bit hesitant about the CSS model, some concern of whether it fits Karrot, but believes the community could still give some money
      • balancing act: people that receive money, income, community and users receiving value; reach equilibrium
      • peoples full income from Karrot, now it’s only a part
      • money in the bank account running out will force action
      • likes basic concept of CSS - let’s explore it more
      • center-contribution to Karrot: think and write funding, write proposals in autumn
  • Academic conceptualization of CSS and Foodsharing.de-Paper - Connection of Butze, Leonie and Vas [R]
    • communication betwen foodsharing dev and users, looked into serendipidous (?) connections, hand in this paper in 3 days (Leonie and Butze)
    • reference point to CSS
    • Vas also contributing to this paper, bein
    • academic fusion is starting!
    • Q?: could there be a topic on the forum with the pdf’s?
    • looking forward to read it!
  • Proposal Foodsharing Siegen, Bad Berleburg & Food-Sharing Academie (Butze) [R]
    • talked to city officials in town close by
    • Bekanntmachung - BMBF
    • write proposal to DATI, Oct 16th
    • could be interesting for foodsharing towns project too
    • involve Karrot as a suggestion for groups
    • how to have technical federation between projects, connect on social and technical level
    • Q?: Create an ecosystem of digital tools, is this also part of the idea? Rather practises and community, but there is this question: how can technology support
    • it is still a month to write proposal, scientist have some freedom
    • Q? what is the proposal about? Siegen quite succesful in several sharing practises - how can this be transfered into a rural area? What can we learn vise versa?
  • change default video call platform from jitsi [D]
  • initial thoughts about next thing to work on Karrot [E]
    • mobile notifications
    • enjoy the sun
    • I need to look at the board
    • tasks don’t need to be programming tasks e.g. design
    • subgroups and teams (dreaming)
    • small hurdles people and groups encounter when using karrot for the first time

Another time

  • move karrot mastodon account away from fosstodon [ED]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
    • next thing to work on karrot [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-09-19 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: all
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Philip, Vas, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h15
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nick is doing some other work for the next 3 weeks
      • Vasilis away next week
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: yes!
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • post academic paper in exchange categorie (Exchange of ideas - Karrot Community) [Butze]
  • nathalie make some livingutopia bbb room changes and share the link and update the karrot activity to use the new link [Nathalie]
    • done
  • fill the board with Nathalie’s ideas [Nathalie]
    • a bit
  • transfer action items from FOSC call to Karrot see Advisory meetings with Karrot - Sociocracy in Free & Open Source Content - Sociocracy For All [Nathalie]
    • see item below
  • work on membership policy
    • follow up with Tilmann [?]
    • lead the text around decision-making [Nathalie]
    • update format of document and lead the text around member removal [Bruno]
    • set up web/forum space for member list [Nick]

4. Discussion points

  • move karrot mastodon account away from fosstodon [E]

  • membership policy [D]

    • Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc

    • Nathalie:

      • wonder about language, can be annoying going through sentence by sentence as a group, would be happy for nick, as a native english speaker, to work through it
      • added work “conducting” to emphasise that we are doing stuff
      • like clarifying that it includes some stuff about making decisions
      • could be a final paragraph that it’s embedded in a bigger governance work, working on mission/vision/css, also would be fine to leave it like it is
      • consent to how it is now
    • Vasilis:

      • proposal is within consent
      • agree with nathalie about language, a couple of lines that are not clear
      • overall really happy with it :slight_smile:
      • “proactivity, meaning being able to take the initiative; and engage in a self-managed environment” <— maybe emphasise self-organised community environment, not individual
      • “It keeps the project alive, intentional and aligned with its vision and values.” ← wondering what intentional means
      • consent!
    • Philip:

      • no clear sense the team is consistitued by it’s members
        • suggestion “the karrot team is constitued through it’s members”
      • 2nd paragraph, 2 sentences that are same point, but 2 setences apart (about policy decisions)
        • would suggest bullet points
        • also headlines to break it up and aid clarity
    • Nick:

      • few points. Why conducting in italics? Doesnt need to be in italics.
      • Needs a bit of description of what Karrot is? Seems obvious. Minor suggestions
      • Mentions of governance. Explicitly sociocracy?
      • Admin privileges…other things…could add and other tools, future ones etc
      • requires active participaiton in the weekly meetings? Are u kicked out if u miss a meeting? Just think of someone that doesnt enjoy participatig? Can we soften? encourage? ‘regular?’…soften the requires
      • OBJECT based on the combination of the above
      • excersice once objecting muscle
    • Bruno: having some issues with BBB

      • a lot of feedback I agree with that can be incorporated
      • object if there is energy to incorporate feedback consent if not
    • how to make changes in the next week?

      • we removed the crossed out sections now
      • if you edit it in the next week, cross out what you’ve changed
  • email caretaker (check inbox, clean up, reply) [D]

    • Nathalie: looking for new responsible person, in particular for ‘community emails’
    • loosing a bit of motivation
    • would be nice to have more support to answer them
    • was happy that Bruno was answering some
    • don’t like emails that don’t get replies for a long time
    • maybe a bigger question
    • Vasilis:
      • can’t take over the task, apologies!
      • can feel the lack of motivation, also don’t feel motivated
      • however, if we don’t find someone, I can at least try and answer some, or put it on a rota… maybe bad idea, but an idea…
    • Philip:
      • asking what the emails are:
        • people wanting to start foodsaving
        • sometimes they think they are email foodsharing.de, or are not sure
        • so replies are not karrot-specific
        • sometimes don’t get replies
      • can help if there is no-one else, if others don’t really like it, don’t feel extensively motivated, but can support
    • Nick:
      • get a load of random ppl across europe/world. get an e-mail list on some platform and ppl can sign up and then anyone in the groups can answer and maybe it then develops a life on its own. They are motivated and reach ppl who are not motivated. Better spend time to try and find more motivated souls. Not motivation to give generic motivation. Do our replies go into spam? For the foodsharing europe thing: microproposal to set-up an e-mail list.
      • foodsharing | International is where some people email from
    • Bruno:
      • personally, don’t feel like taking repsonsiblity, can help and answer some
      • but not really the person checking and always answering, sharing responsiblity, could participate in a rota
      • possible solution could be to reach out to people in the karrot community, who are active in other groups, could ask them to ask around… a way to engage people into karrot, pretty sure there are people around who are into the work
      • can be frustrating when there is a lot of initial enthusiasm, then they see how hard it is, and you never see them again
      • when it leads to something, is great, even if only 1/20 attempts succeeds
      • can see how it can fit into this foodsharing europe idea, if there is a way to make it easier (than using the forum)
      • in favour of opening up and inviting people for this task
    • Nathalie:
      • short term: onboarding philip to forum and emails
      • could get the yunity email link on foodsharing | International to be a link to the forum, could take care of this
  • any news from NLNET [R]?

    • no
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

    • next thing to work on karrot [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

  • contact https://neighbourhooddemocracy.org/

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • post academic paper in exchange categorie (Exchange of ideas - Karrot Community) [Butze]
  • work on membership policy
    • follow up with Tilmann [Nick]
    • set up web/forum space for member list [Nick]
    • make amendment proposals as discussed [Anyone]
  • look out for mastodon instances [Nick, others if motivated]
  • work on the Membership policy draft Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc [all]
  • onboarding philip to forum and emails [Philip, Nathalie]
  • look into getting the yunity email address on foodsharing | International replaced with a forum link [Nathalie]
  • check if activation e-mails for the forum are being delivered, particularly Butze’s (Nick)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-09-19 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick, and others puuurrllleeease
Participants: Butze, Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1:20 from now, Butze leaves eralier
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • nathalie leader of FOSC circle and in SOFA now
      • also IT circle
      • had some conversations with bonfire about sociocracy and FOSC, more around the team itself
      • butze goes on holiday :beach_umbrella::bikini:
    • next meeting:
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • work on membership policy
    • follow up with Tilmann [Nick]
    • set up web/forum space for member list [Nick]
    • make amendment proposals as discussed [Anyone]
  • look out for mastodon instances [Nick, others if motivated]
    • nope, ongoing through…
  • work on the Membership policy draft Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc [all]
  • onboarding philip to forum and emails [Philip, Nathalie]
    • done! (although need to work it out so he can create a topic)
  • look into getting the yunity email address on foodsharing | International replaced with a forum link [Nathalie]
    • done!
    • also looked at foodsaving.world website, and intend to work on that a bit
  • check if activation e-mails for the forum are being delivered, particularly Butze’s (Nick)

4. Discussion points

  • membership policy [E/D]
    • Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc

    • Where are we at?

    • Karrot Community | People

    • Nick

      • people page taking information from discourse
      • you can make profile pretty
      • haven’t done modifications yet
      • spoke to Tilmann: wouldn’t participate in weekly meetings, remove from github org, what about the server, intention of the policy is to clarify what we have than to remove people, ‘org’ team and ‘tech’ team, doesn’t want to do ‘org’ topics, suggested tech calls,
    • Butze

      • made some suggestions to the text
      • seems some other progress has been made, with a clearer structure
    • Nathalie

      • surprised by the amount of changes
      • new things added, feels like moving away from what we were close to consent on
      • unsure how to progress best
      • haven’t personally made any changes and unsure about some of them
      • sense of policy getting bigger, by mentioning circles, and sociocracy, adds new dimension to the topic
      • started with membership, would prefer to deal with membership initially, and leave the wider considerations
      • maybe delay the formalisation of the circles until later
      • if mentioning sociocracy, would want to add some other aspects of it, so better to delay
      • would be nice to come to an end, torn how to deal with it
    • Bruno

      • haven’t changed anything
      • had a follow up discussion about it last co-working
      • agree with what’s been said so far ™️
      • should move the general governance out of the membership policy
      • seems to make sense there is is “IT” circle, and nice to progress this idea
      • … however we don’t have enough to do that, so good idea to bring it back to initial narrower focus on defining membership
    • Nick

      • can rework it a bit more after the call
      • like the structured sections
      • bring it back to the membership topic
      • get agreement done
      • github/forum/etc access, many other people have access already
    • Nathalie

      • like the sense to bring it more back to the core membership idea
      • last paragraph is about the future, so doing something there
      • we might work towards having different groups within karrot
      • would like to keep some of the parts of staying connected, or responsive
      • wondering who consents on karrot, everyone or the main core circle, or present team members in the call
      • some more things to figure about
    • Bruno

      • don’t understand part of whether tilmann is part of main team or different circle, reflecting his participation, focusing more on the IT, and not so much on the organisation part, and the karrot team is what is responsible for that part, and doing meetings, and stewarding the project as a whole, so a different kind of participation made sense
    • two paths emerging

      • karrot team as umbrella term, within it having different participations, e.g. with two circles
      • karrot team as one circle of more active organising participants
        • could still have external people who still have access
    • reactions

      • Nick
        • who consents on new membership? see document as a starting point, not the final strcuture
        • consern with narrow one: doesn’t reflect realtiv, Tilmann is part of the team and taking responsibility, example of harddrive failure
        • Karrot core focuses on organizing, tech things are hidden
        • wider understanding makes sense even without defining circles
        • include type of contribution Tilman is doing
        • resolve that sense first
        • wrote it initially without governance sense, which we’ve added more in, the two paths maybe imply some a bit
      • Nathalie
        • where I’d like it to go, growing the team, and more people in goverance, would like to see karrot team as an umbrella, with different parts inside
        • would need to bring circles as an active topic
        • would have to define the domains, and the work, e.g. tech circle, which decisions would it take, lots of overlapping parts, e.g. who designs the features, or if somebody wants to play a bit, does it mean joining the tech circle
        • seems too big to formalise those things right now
        • if we go with more umbrella membership, how do we work out who consents on membership, e.g. could be each circle consents on membership (e.g. tech circle can welcome people in, and then they become part of karrot), other orgs have initial step of welcoming to organisation before joining circles, maybe to a membership guide circle
        • so, consent for new memberships could be in the weekly calls still? if somebody joins from the tech perspective, they would still join a weekly call
      • Bruno
        • interesting that the movement that the whole membership policy triggers
        • feels like a step back, to realise we’re not very well defined
        • makes sense to have a view on the wider governance, dealing with a living organism, can’t change it without affecting the whole, so defining a core, has impact on the wider system
        • maybe have to discuss the wider governance stuff a bit more to define a membership policy
        • both ways make sense, umbrella vs core team
        • if it’s more the umbrella term, would like a different word to Team, which feels close, getting together and co-operating, like a football team, e.g. the weekly meetings, maybe a broader term for the ecosystem/community
        • no doubt tilmann has been a key part, but current role less like in team definition
        • have to think about the CSS/CSX ideas, where if you’re becoming a member of karrot, you’re using it, but maybe not contributing (so not members?), and decision making considerations for different levels
        • need to make consideration of these wider parts, seeing karrot as a body, what’s the head, the organs, etc.
        • was recalling the anarchist cybernetics book, had part more responsible for stewarding, some more operational, and the functional hierarchy
        • different parts TT, design, community engagement, etc.
        • want to hear what the wider member thinks, general assembly, etc. many thoughts, quite unclear
        • happy to drafts to get a bit clearer of what kind of proposal it is, even though we’re not really aligned, to see what kind of model we’re proposal, umbrella or core team
    • Outcomes

      • we welcome contribution in the Karrot team both with technical and organizing focus

      • not everyone in the Karrot team needs to join the weekly meeting

      • we will further work on the idea of governance and different circles and roles in the future

      • membership policy will allow this contributions

      • membership will be decided in weekly meetings

      • how do we feel about this outcomes/next steps

        • Bruno
          • agree generally, one little objection
          • the word “Team”, doesn’t feel the best word if we’re broadening it
        • Nathalie
          • consent to this
        • Nick
          • a bit overwhelmed and frustration
          • it’s only 5 people
          • complexity because of Tilmanns role, contribution is hidden, really feels like active part of the team, feels underresourced in the technical area
        • Bruno
          • it’s also about a sense of belonging
          • withdraw objection, if ‘team’ brings sense of belonging
          • needs more time, feels a bit stuck

      Next steps

      • revisit membership policy and check with Vas, bring back new proposal [Nathalie]

Next time

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • report meeting with neighborhooddemocracy [Nick]
  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • post academic paper in exchange categorie (Exchange of ideas - Karrot Community) [Butze]
    • nick offers to help if needed
  • work on foodsaving.world (links on it) [Nathalie]
  • revisit membership policy and check with Vas, bring back new proposal [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-10-03 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Bruno
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1:00 max
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: yes
      • next Tuesday general: yes, maybe, we’ll see! :smiley:
    • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • report meeting with neighborhooddemocracy [Nick]
  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • post academic paper in exchange category (Exchange of ideas - Karrot Community) [Butze]
  • work on foodsaving.world (links on it) [Nathalie]
  • revisit membership policy and check with Vas, bring back new proposal [Nathalie]

4. Discussion points

  • foodsharing France [R]

    • Online kick-off video call to start foodsharing France on 26 september
    • Nathalie can ask Jonas for the minutes
    • relationship between karrot and foodsharing? foodsharing becoming international foodsharing?
    • clearer over time that Karrot’s effort is put into a good direction
    • trying to get an understanding of this
    • mutual agreement between Karrot and foodsharing? → agenda topic
  • nlnet questions to answer [E]

  • schedule performance review Nathalie [R]

    • Oct 18th 10:00
    • Pia will do sociocratic facilitation
    • a bit like the evaluation at Kanthaus - see how the person is doing, have a feedback…
    • wish to get a clear description about it, on the public activity
  • schedule fun session (Bruno) [E]

    • started sketching in on co-working session, but maybe that’s not the right time
    • create space for more creative work
    • forget about constraints
    • free flowing session
    • which structure could facilitate that space?
    • fun and inspirational
    • there’s struggle to be creative because of the structural topics
    • when would that be? evenings busy for Nathalie
    • wish for individual time to work on it
    • maybe both time by yourself and together
    • there’s a lot of work and energy being put in the practical side of fixing existing things
    • the question of it not being so fun anymore when it gets users and needs to fix stuff
    • Next steps: use a co-working session for this, 1 month from now - Nov 1st,
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

    • next thing to work on karrot [E] technical
    • criteria (from last time we did that process)
      • something that I (Nick) can start coding immediately
      • nice to have support from a user perspective
      • connected to a clear need
      • be able to contribute
      • what’s important for the groups
    • Q: what does ‘being able to contribute’ mean? for other contributors maybe, let’s ignore
    • how much connection is there with the groups at the moment?
    • First round
      • Allow to record no-shows and give trust during feedback process: building on the last thing (feedback), 2 features for 1, trust giving journey, Kranti asking about no shows
      • Fix push notifications: would effect many Karrot users, improve usability
      • Banner/cover image for places: visual improving, playful feature
    • change round
      • no change
      • no change, would like banner/cover, seems easy, trust giving: could be a box of pandora - could also go with that
      • change to Allow to record no-shows and give trust during feedback process
    • Proposal: next work: Allow to record no-shows and give trust during feedback process
      • no consent: not ready for development, but could be design-process
      • what’s ready fo development? reflection on the process, agree that it’s not ready
      • consent
    • amended proposal: only work on ‘record no-shows’
      • consent
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • report meeting with neighborhooddemocracy (when it’s done) [Nick]
  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • check with Butze to make his post about academic articles a wiki-post [when Butze is in the meeting]
  • reply questions from Nlnet [all]
  • edit activity description of Nov 1st for fun session [Bruno]
  • split the task on feedback no-shows and trust giving [Bruno]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-10-10 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 50m from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nathalie will be away Wednesday and Thursday (11 and 12th)
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick
      • next Tuesday general: Nick
      • next week:
        • Tuesday FOSC call
        • Wednesday Nathalie performance review
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • report meeting with neighborhooddemocracy (when it’s done) [Nick]
  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • check with Butze to make his post about academic articles a wiki-post [when Butze is in the meeting]
  • reply questions from Nlnet [all]
  • answer NLnet questions in co-working [Nathalie, Bruno]
    • co-working last wednesday took place
    • nick and vas had a call on saturday
  • edit activity description of Nov 1st for fun session [Bruno]
    • done!
  • split the task on feedback no-shows and trust giving [Bruno]
    • done!

4. Discussion points

  • mutual agreement between Karrot and foodsharing [E]
    • emails from Jonas https://community.karrot.world/t/fwd-online-auftakttreffen-foodsharing-in-frankreich-am-dienstag-26-09-18-uhr/1332/5
      • history of DLC, using karrot
      • translatability of foodsharing.network platform
      • given french law, is it needed? probably
    • comments/thoughts
      • Nathalie:
        • makes a reminder we are lacking clarity
        • international part in fs.de has been quite dormant
        • quite a few people in foodsharing with international connections, but not much lead or structure
        • could make sense to co-operate in some way
        • on foodsaving.world there was a page about the difference between karrot and foodsharing.de, could revisit
        • could have a conversation about collaborating, not sure who to talk to, perhaps the working groups?
        • perhaps janina is waking up there to bridge, and explore how the projects interact
      • Bruno:
        • wonder what will happen, keen to observe, open to collaboration
        • biggest questions, how are they going to find the people, and support them to do the basis groundwork
        • how does it connect to ideas mentioned of foodsharing europe?
        • how to find enough people that have time/skills to create a group and make it work
        • maybe existing groups just need a little push
        • janina was good at this kind of networking, bringing groups to karrot, following up, nice she is becoming active again, would be happy to chat
        • platforms? foodsharing/karrot, there is awareness in that group of karrot, hope there is a good open discussion, showing the alternatives (advantages/disadvantages)
      • Nick:
        • rather spend time supporting groups who’d like to join Karrot
        • is their main intention to bring people to FS? don’t want to be in a competing situation
        • difference between FS and Karrot is clear, the latter is more explicit about self-organizing and FS is more like a hierarchical bureaucratic structure
        • havng this clarity would help groups to decide what they want
      • Nathalie:
        • thinking a forum post to explain the differences between foodsharing and karrot, could show to foodsharing, and invite them to add other things to make it not too biased, have some motivation to write such a thing
      • Bruno:
        • nice to put the cards on the table, if thinking about comparisons, not just featurewise (which is useful), but also what does it mean in terms of vision, governance, what are you becoming part of, what relationship are you creating by using/joining one or the other
        • not clear what they mean when they propose to start foodsharing, independent organisations? or governance together with foodsharing germany? deploy their own instance, or just foodsharing.network? (yes, same instance as foodsharing.de, different urls point to same instance).
  • new_public event [R]
    • https://newpublic.org/
    • The Signals: A Guided Primer
    • https://commonagency.org/
    • issue of people using different platforms
    • how to build trust?
    • one point that stood out: being invited personally by a person to an event
    • meeting in person is good for trust-building
    • what is the role of digital tools to build trust and collaboration?
    • power with instead of power over
    • important to do the welcoming in person
    • “working at the speed of trust”
    • what is the wealth of the community and what they care about
    • some problems with existing platforms: moderator or admin for life (power over)
    • https://community.ecodesigncollective.org/
    • Nathalie:
      • got drawn into The Signals: A Guided Primer
      • sounds very relevant to karrot topics
      • reminded me of moderator/admin issues of platforms, and relation to metagov/policykit, something about having policies to decide things, not admins, and exactly where karrot is at
        • we give the policy (e.g. 3 karrots → editor)
        • nice paradigm
    • Bruno:
      • nice to hear, wonder where they they go
      • started course in gothenburg about community organising, and similiarities, power with vs over, importance of face-to-face, resources of a community, how to build power together from social/human capital, finding places where people currently have power over, then build power together there
      • nice explorations, and to bring back to karrot, and how it would relate/translate, we’re quite aware of online/offline dynamics
    • Nick:
      • topics very aligned with what we found our way on Karrot
      • a lot of potential for Karrot there in the topics of community/neighborhood organising
      • interested in making parnerships and connections to groups and organisations working on the ground
      • connects to the vision/strategy topic
      • follow up with the personal connections, focusing on the UK context, to be able to meet in person
      • mention about tech fatigue, but also that people don’t know about tools that exist and the support they would need to use them
  • https://community.karrot.world/t/reminder-your-mailbox-has-reached-maximum-capacity/1367
    • it’s spam
    • hover over the links
  • reply questions from Nlnet
    • Nick to put something together
    • run by Vas, Nathalie & Bruno are fine with sending it away
    • motivation is alright
  • 1/5/10 visions :slight_smile:
    • question of vision more urgent again
    • Will Nathalie still contribute?
    • vision we can agree on
    • previous Weekly Co-working on Karrot - #3 by nicksellen
    • Nathalie:
      • wondering if vas is still doing consolidation, and if there is deadline
      • one part is motivated to write something, makes sense to contribute
      • but not super motivated, or having a clear thing to write
      • not working on it this week, depends on urgency/timescale
    • Bruno:
      • agree on importance, also feel the same “urgency” (too strong a word though!)
      • would be nice to get back to it, see how they relate to the topics we discussed today
      • would like to look at them again, thinking what is the strategy from here on
      • trying to be more intentional in the work, clearer path/plan
      • happy to work on it whenever it comes up again
    • Nick:
      • happy that still feels relevant
      • not urgent, maybe increasing urgency, in the context of the world
      • be happy to see that progress
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
    • Membership policy draft? link: Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc
    • Nathalie:
      • mind mostly focused on question of circles, one team with different responsiblities
      • less resistance to having multiple circles right away
      • de-emphasised the weekly call importance
      • acknowledged that we might have different calls
      • so, focus is meeting and sense of connection, but not specify exactly how
      • on decisions: tending towards “who’s there decides”, in reality likely to be in the weekly call, announce in advance if a decision will be attempted there
      • nuance between only having one team/circle, but also not built-out circles that decide their own things, perhaps represents current state, and a hint where we are going
      • wondering how to involve tilmann best in this conversation, wondering if he’d be motivated to join the team (even in more fluid way)
    • Bruno:
      • a little bit confused from the previous call, opened up how encompassing the team is
      • now, as I understand it, it’s a broader definition of being part of the team, totally fine for me
      • have enough, maybe some tweaks, happy to bring it up for consent round next tuesday, like in general what I see, can build in time, don’t need a perfect policy now, and better to deal with the questions when they come up
      • feels like tilmanns position with it can be resolved, have to check with him, and that he can continue participating
      • I like it!
    • Nick:
      • appreciates work
      • underyling topic: feeling undersupported in tech area, pressure of tech stuff
      • likes good enough focus, potential of review
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

End of October: review money amounts

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • reschedule meeting with neighbourhooddemocracy thing [Nick]
  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • check with Butze to make his post about academic articles a wiki-post [when Butze is in the meeting]
  • work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-10-17 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1:03 from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nick will go on holiday at some point
    • next meeting:
      • tonight FOSC call
      • Wednesday co-working: tomorrow nathalie performance review
      • next Tuesday general: yes
    • pick facilitator for next week: Bruno

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • reschedule meeting with neighbourhooddemocracy thing [Nick]
    • done, report later!

4. Discussion points

  • membership policy [D]
    • Draft Proposal defining Karrot membership - HedgeDoc
    • Reactions
      • small language change, seems good enough
      • happy reading it, incorpated things from the past
      • seemed really good
      • funny § symbols, legal? academic?
      • covers the things, some vagueness
      • 2.2/3.1 interesting about more specific team parts
      • curious if we’ll consent on each others membership now
      • how do we include tilmann here?
      • precusor to having circles
    • consent on the policy?
      • consent!
      • celebration!
    • consent on each others membership?
      • who becomes part of the team now? wait for vasilis? butze? tilmann?
      • either consent on the three of us present as members, or include people we know intend to be a member (vasilis), or include all potential people (tilmann, butze), or delay
      • Proposal: Members are Bruno, Nick, Nathalie and Vas. Reach out to Tilmann and Butze.
        • agreed!
      • Vas indicated wanting to be part of the team, need to hear from Tilmann and Butze
  • neighbourhood democracy call [R]
    • Nick had a call with them finally
    • a listing of a lot of projects
    • would be nice with they promote Karrot to their people
    • connection with the UK
    • person on the line was part of Barcelona en Comú, into municipalism (fearless cities) and trying to bring that to the UK to become part of this movement
    • Fearless Cities is coming to Sheffield in the UK in May, invited to so a session on Karrot
    • 5 aspects of it, will be on the website
      • bringing ppl together
      • deepening democracy
      • assets and buildings
      • common interests
      • socioecological transformation
    • they could promote Karrot by telling a story in their website
    • Link collection
    • first observsations on neighbourhood democracy website, were bland and depoliticised, but very happy to hear how it was
    • was following barcelona en comu, and fearless cities stuff before, not sure how it’s going now, motivated to dig some more into it
    • whole area of activism haven’t been involved, but foodsharing cities is perhaps part of this, perhaps interesting direction for foodsharing towns
    • could go in this direction to think about the bigger scale of democratizing cities/towns
    • the person I spoke to is Angelina Kussy (email footer links to https://weareopus.org/)
    • interests for follow up call:
      • municipalism, learning more, having an exchange about the context, e.g. in nordic/swedish context
      • where are overlaps, e.g. with foodsharing towns and municipalist/democratic stuff, foodsharing is quite big but also invisible and it’s own thing, so at least sharing about that
  • trying out new use of Karrot, parent coop, some reflections [E]
    • been thinking for some time to try introducing it to the parent co-op where Brunos kids go
    • had a meeting with working group (info working group, that does website, etc…), would have to bring to board later on
    • they currently use dropbox for collecting documents, policy, working groups, scheduling, excel sheets, a forwarding email address (that doesn’t work very well, so karrot might be tangible help there, problems are people not getting added to list, and sometimes emails don’t arrive), working groups using WhatsApp to co-ordinate meetings, used to have facebook group which is now quite inactive
    • when presenting karrot, mentioned principles/values (e.g. not using commercial tools, analogy of thinking about food consumption about kids, organic, sustainability, also need to think about technology, as WhatsApp was proposed for main tool). proposal to use karrot for messaging, including threading to keep more focused discussion, then other aspect for organising working days using activities (currently one person assigns families to days, and co-ordinates families switching), karrot does self-assigning so would need a different workflow in karrot, maybe could be useful feature to assign other people? or suggest?
    • also for organising working groups using places, could connect to teams/circles in the future
    • advantage using karrot, more insight into different working groups, transparency, and personal support from Bruno to support use of the tool, and lead to future development
    • one person is trying it out, resistance to something new, and to learn, came up already, recognise that, getting feedback about difficulties in adopting karrot is useful
    • the process of creating a new group is good to notice little roadblocks in the way
    • in the long run can see if it can be useful or not, will continue gently pushing it, could become a co-operation to gather feedback to lead to further development
    • one wish that was expressed: “it woudl be good to fewer number of digital tools” (e.g. get rid of dropbox), combining file storage and chatting, some tools you can’t get rid of
    • without turning karrot into nextcloud/dropbox/file storage… can we find a way to create some basic organisation of files… good enough for groups to work with, hard to join them into one tool right now
    • will continue exploring, and collecting feedback and hurdles, can share notes on the forum
    • feedback from Nathalie
      • really cool, like effort to bring to local place, and personal connected group with different purpose
      • a lot of learning there, very good feedback
      • curious if it gets decided to use it
      • like the feature ideas coming: suggesting someone for a slot
      • reminded me of thought about time when someone is inactive, e.g. not good to kick people out if they don’t log in for some time, so feature could be a disadvantage if people don’t log in a lot… different context to this loose thing
      • making more core settings more configurable
      • like direction to think about features :slight_smile:
    • feedback from Nick:
      • useful to get the understanding regardless they will use it
      • learning from these cases
      • thinking of the CSA model, one example, create a group and collect all the issues. An easy way of becoming involved
      • idea of suggesting someone for a slot is like an invite for an event
      • question of having a suite of tools: not usually something that people want
      • relates to NlNet question: what is the core of a tool, what is peripheral
      • we could explore how to connect with these tools
      • nextcloud talk on mobile works but a bit clunky
      • what is the significant advantage in using Karrot
  • we’re on the new public directory [R]
  • please test push notifications on dev.karrot.world
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

End of October: review money amounts

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
  • check with Butze to make his post about academic articles a wiki-post [when Butze is in the meeting]
  • work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
  • write a post on karrot to announce the members, invite tilmann/butze to apply, inform vasilis we automatically made him a member [Nick]
  • add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
  • add agreement to Karrot group and forum [Nathalie]
  • review bio/description on people’s page [all]
  • follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-10-24 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Butze, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1:07
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Butze:
        • handed in proposal for regional foodsharing + food resource sharing (community gardens, cooking events, etc), TWO BAZILLION EUROS!!! (2m actually)
        • project is very nice, research through design
        • lots of applications, so probably not so much chance to get it
        • working with foodsharing ev to write a better proposal
    • next meeting:
      • Wednesday co-working: yes
      • next Tuesday general: yes
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nick and Butze co-facilitating

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
    • moved to Nathalie’s private to do list
  • check with Butze to make his post about academic articles a wiki-post [when Butze is in the meeting]
  • work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
    • not yet
  • write a post on karrot to announce the members, invite tilmann/butze to apply, inform vasilis we automatically made him a member [Nick]
    • done
  • add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
    • done
  • add agreement to Karrot group and forum [Nathalie]
    • done
  • review bio/description on people’s page [all]
    • poked people
  • follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]
    • not yet

4. Discussion points

  • review date for membership policy [D]

    • 1 year?
    • Question: 6 months review date and 1 year end date?
      • nah, we can just do 1 year review date, and policy stays active (no end date)
    • 1 year! done and updated
  • membership Butze? [E/D?]

    • would he like to become a member
    • feel’s like he’s still learning
    • would like to wait until he’s made a real contribution first
    • maybe in 2/3 months
    • doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to become a member :slight_smile:
    • still onboarding
    • reactions
      • Nick:
        • at outlandish had members, people intending to become members, and collaborators (not intending to become members)
        • quite like that idea
      • Nathalie:
        • makes sense, sounds reasonable
        • wondering why onboarding isn’t part of being a member?
        • makes the membership something bigger, would like it to be less big
        • experience in SOFA, relatively quick to be member, became welcomed as member in a circle, then onboarding later
      • Bruno:
        • makes sense
        • maybe more symbolic value, what does it really mean to be a member, and how should onboarding be
        • maybe becoming a member means having some commitment, or being involved, with enough knowledge, or skills, but not clearly defined
        • so fine to go with flow with subjectivities
        • happy he’s interested
      • Butze:
        • let’s reschedule to a month or 1.5 months
        • thinking about proposals where I see some kind of contribution for me
        • will take time
        • feel like I can contribute with proposals
        • need to wrap my head around it a bit more
        • think not far from now I’ll become one :slight_smile: :partying_face:
      • Nick:
        • would be happy to see federation between Karrot and FS and can support that
      • Butze:
        • student came in wanting to write masters thesis, with idea of a 3D printed sharing box, with a QR code, people can give photos/videos of themselves, tried to make a food context… too big for masters thesis
        • thought is communities collaborating and talking, good for physical exchange, and it faciliates exchange
        • what about a karrot box? people from one community could put in things, e.g. seeds, harvests, and you send it to brussels to see harvest of bath, would like to experiment, trying to get theme into it that it’s beyond just saving food, but also prosumption practises
      • Bruno:
        • have fun session planned for next co-working + 1, maybe suitable space for that
        • 1st November is date for that
  • karrot.foodsharing.lu [R]

    • have more groups as subgroups
      • localised activities
    • support self-hosting of Karrot
    • coop cloud, worked with Michal
    • Nick tried to set-up server themselves
    • coworking session with Daniel and Elisa to deploy Karrot, server set-up most complicated
    • run their own fork?
    • using postal server for incoming emails
    • possible modifications
      • joining automatically a default group?
      • doesn’t need a landing page
      • maybe something around logos
    • interesting to see how this would boost collaboration between groups/ platforms
    • invited Daniel to include feedback and idea to our forum
    • potentially interested in development
    • nice to hear!
    • plug-in infrastructure for Karrot? build in for own instances, implement in core project later
  • we’re on the new public directory [R]

    • New_ Public
    • a list of civic tech projects
    • would be interesting to have time to explore the projects
    • trying to make sense of them, they already have some filters on the page
    • nice start
    • Nathalie:
      • in sofa/fosc context, also nice research to look through, and find out about their governance
      • also hylo, who say they use sociocracy as governance method
      • very nice list
    • Butze:
      • like the list alot, sharing it already with people
      • reminds me of list that janina started 8 years ago with simliar projects to yunity
  • development

    • please test push notifications on dev.karrot.world
      • bruno plans to test tomorrow during co-working
    • please feedback on no-shows
      • Allow to record no-shows during feedback process - #4 by nicksellen
      • will wait for feedback
      • Bruno:
        • saw it and liked it, will wait for Kranti
        • question: won’t affect history?
      • Nathalie:
        • saw it and liked it
        • it’s just sharing information, could be conflicting, but that’s not the point, focus on displaying information
      • open questions:
        • how should it show activity history number, show done and no show?
        • how should it show up in the history?
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

    • pick more!
    • Ready for Development | Other
    • Nomination
    • Bruno
      • Possibility to edit place statuses of cooperation | Navigating upcoming activities (more user feedback)
    • Nick
      • Possibility to edit place statuses of cooperation | Navigating upcoming activities (more user feedback)
    • Nathalie
        • | Navigating upcoming activities (more user feedback)
    • Butze
      • Wrong orientation of pictures | Change Username
    • Proposal: Next up
      • Fix push notification: is ongoing [Nick + testing]
      • Wrong orientation of pictures : test it [Bruno]
      • Navigating upcoming activities (more user feedback) [Bruno first, Nick later]
      • Possibility to edit place statuses of cooperation [Nick]
    • consent
  • meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [E]

  • https://sharedfutures.space [R]

  • forum spam [E]

  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

End of October: review money amounts

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
  • add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
  • review bio/description on people’s page [all]
  • follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]
  • please test push notifications on dev.karrot.world [all]
  • add no-show questions to forum post for prompting [Nick]
  • test if pictures are uploading correctly wit the right orientation [Bruno]
  • feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout

Date: 2023-10-31 https://meet.friprogramvarusyndikatet.se/karrot
Facilitator: Butze, Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Butze

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h15
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nick: going on a trip next week, may or may not be around, let’s see
      • Bruno: started prep work on creating foodsharing sweden :partying_face: :croissant::baguette_bread::bread::flatbread::bagel:
      • Butze: going to meet Valentin Thurn soon, starting to network
    • next meeting:
      • tonight: sofa/fosc call scheduled: need to check with Nathalie if we try and postpone, or what?
      • Wednesday co-working: fun session co-working! nick, bruno
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: Butze (with support)

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
  • add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
    • done!
  • review bio/description on people’s page [all]
    • butze did it :partying_face:
    • not others :disappointed_relieved:
  • follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]
    • I think this was done?
  • please test push notifications on dev.karrot.world [all]
    • bruno was testing, and generally :+1:
    • a query as to which things cause a push notification
    • bruno will continue thinking about which things could
    • could also explore more prominent banner to prompt to enable notifications
  • add no-show questions to forum post for prompting [Nick]
    • asked kranti about it
  • test if pictures are uploading correctly with the right orientation [Bruno]
    • bruno did it, no issues found :pray:
  • feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
    • not yet

4. Discussion points

  • meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [E]
    • present idea, and explore first thoughts
    • background:
      • presenting karrot to be used at parents co-op
      • checking specific use case, exploring what we do, which digital tools we use, what we need, how could karrot be useful, what is missing
    • meta part: what can we abstract from that that would be common to other groups doing self-organising that might have grassroots vibe, might be well structured but without professional paid organisation structure
    • helps us get a bit clearer on karrots concept, currently half clear in our heads… would be extremely useful to do that, lead towards a definition of what kind of groups karrot is for, based on which concept
    • community building, self organising, what do those things mean, start looking at needs, how are groups using digital tools, what are their needs, what does karrot offer now, what could it offer… start gathering information more systematically
    • e.g. communication needs (quick? fast?), onboarding… documentation system, like a cloud drive thing… but for what
    • not that karrot would provide everything, but have a clear sense, what is the actual value we can add on a day to day basis that is not being provided by any other tools
    • and how it can/might interface/interoperate with other tools, how much to reinvent wheel, or not… how might we create something new? how much can we copy?
    • looking for a structure/basis to start that journey
    • could start with notes from this specific case, could also go back to when we adapted karrot to bike kitchen (have videos from user testing)
    • Butze:
      • find this very interesting, prompted task to get this into some kind of thesis structure, could be a task for a student, who can look into it for 3 months, interview us, users
      • have a short manual in mind, could give a student the task to develop such a manual, and get into feedback loops with us
      • see it as good value and very important
      • could really sharpen karrot foci (different focuses)
      • last days I’ve been on karrot, saw link to welcome page, and first word noticed as “community building”, relates to recent papers, discourse is that “community building needs personal encounters”
      • interested to see how we see karrot and community building together, how karrot supports community building
      • a lot of technology building does not focus on this
      • worthwhile and useful for a student
    • Nick:
      • also see this as really valuable
      • from wider FOSS community a lot of developer centric around tools (dev can be self-empowered)
      • when ou are not a dev, you have to work with a whole team (which is a lot more complicated
        → gab of tools, that are suitable
      • Karrot has a more grounded approach (devs and team blend)
      • nobody gives a shit about a tool… people want to do actions, want to connect with other people (rather than explore tools)
      • there are more projects that Nick knows, that have a similar interest (we can do it together)
      • Nick suggests connecting with the author of Anarchist Cybernetics
      • Adam Greenfeld is interesting
    • Bruno:
      • happy to have such a positive response :partying_face:
      • feel enthusiastic about doing something, but unclear how it would looks like, could be bigger or smaller, so many possible scopes
      • could be more karrot focused, or more widely concept focused with broader collaboration, maybe could be both, could do our own work, and dialogue with other partners and collaborators, building knowledge together about community organising and digital tools
      • also have our own focused work on karrot, talking about more specific karrot features
      • not sure about next steps
      • would initially put some notes down on the forum with experiences with the parents co-op
      • would be happy for butze to go ahead and forumulate something for masters students to do
      • would be useful to look back at the experience we had with katies masters students
      • one concern, it would be become too instrumental, if from the students perspective, which is kind of default mode, could be something of interest to the student, but at some point they just need to get something done to pass the exam, so potential it’s just put in a box rather than coming from heart/curiosity, but ok that’s how institutions often frame things, if we’re lucky maybe not, but no harm either way
      • would be nice to reflect more on that experience and see how it could involve a student in a way they find it fun and experience to point and find it interesting
      • totally go ahead butze
      • could continue exploring now, or leave it as it is?
    • Butze:
      • got a lot of insights now, will refine what I’ve written in masters thesis document already
      • on point of whether student does it from heart: question of how we integrate the person, as karrot and supervisor, to be friendly to them, invite them to give updates in weekly call, will advertise as “who is interested in FOSS projects”, don’t want to focus on students who just want to get their points
      • bring the refined version back to meeting next week
    • Nick:
      • people in FOSS spaces collaborate in terms of report and case studies…?
      • no tangible outcome for now but would like to participate in discussions
  • https://sharedfutures.space [R]
    • helps communities to decide there tools
    • first: agreement on a mission
    • then 3 stages
    • It is connected to academia: Peter Bloom (Nick had a call with him, tlaked about vision - explored a lot of similarities)
    • a lot of overlap with karrot.world
    • sharedfurtures has funding, but no users
    • Nick see potential for collaboration: similar goals - Nick working on both of them. potential is to get better platforms than if projects work alone.
    • Chellange: different working models
    • Nick presented a document with thoughts to Animorph
    • Nick wonders in which role he talks to Peter Bloom
    • Bruno:
      • again the funny thing happening of duplicate work whilst pursing same goal, on different paths
      • funny having one developer in common, working in parallel, given that, totally worth seeing where we could collaborate, does it make sense, what is different
      • to achieve best outcome as society, doesn’t mean everybody should work together and co-ordinate, not really feasible, should strive for more of that though, capitalist mindset is to pursue our own goals and projects, e.g. tech for good and social projects, even though it’s not about making money, we’re still in the mindset of “my/our thing” we’re doing, should be able to try and join forces more and work together
      • sometimes there will be differences though, and worthwhile trying to pursue same goal/visions through different paths
      • for shared futures, would be nice to have a clear idea of what kind of features it’s trying to offer, and based on what kind of theory, and how is that different to karrot, how would they complement each other, which kind of ecosystem is it in trying to bring value to people doing self-organised community work
      • maybe nick can guide us on how to explore it, can we log in? create a group? somethingh hands on to get a clear picture of what it offers
      • happy to hear the vision/theory, and how a digital tool can faciliate community organising
    • Butze:
      • started to explore the website, see the general vision to bring people to collaborate
      • looking at academic profile of Peter, would like to talk to him if nick is interested to pursue it further and talk about HCI-related stuff
      • sent the link to co-worker who is interested and patient about exploring websites
      • happy to be an academic link
      • very nice thing that main developer (of karrot) is keen to work with others
  • tech updates
    • push notifications [R]
      • bruno had tested and we talked abouit it. will get into production
    • noshows [R]
      • nick talked to kranti, who said thats exactl what Nick should do. Nick will develope it
    • selfhosting [R]
      • Nick worked with Daniel. Had to do some things. It is working well.
    • place statuses [R]
      • Nick did some fundamential work.
    • plugins
      • it is a nice idea. got some good feedback. Aim is to get the front end thing build and put it into production. We could have some minor plugin on our own instance and see how it works.
    • video calls :slight_smile:
      • technolog exploration. could we integrade something like BBB? Nick went Karrot and foodshasringon a journey to explore diffent tool.
  • Butze talked with Stefan K. [R]
    • board member of foodsharing e.v. one of the leading figures of foodsharing academy
    • nick and I met him at international foodsharing gathering this summer
    • contacted him to see if he’s interested to work on a proposal together, current submitted thing he didn’t have time to work on it
    • see a lot of overlap with my work, main goal is community building
    • we won’t do a proposal in the next 2-3 weeks, longer term project, looking into EU funding, going to start a first draft now with ideas
    • not just doing a foodsharing proposal, but combining with karrot, shared with himhe’s joining calls
    • stefan said he’d be really interested to know what is happening in karrot, but no idea where to look, shared we have the minutes, but didn’t know how to link him there
    • meeting in maastrict in december: how can maastrict get into the foodsaving/foodsharing circles, going to attend, and meet him, see what is happening there, we met some people in maastrict from international academy
    • when I have first draft will share with you (karrot), needs half a year to get a good proposal, and lots of stakeholders together
    • Bruno:
      • clearer idea of what the funding/project would be? get together foodsharing, karrot, community building? kind of open still, or is it more specifically worked on yet with a direction
      • nice and interesting to hear Stefan is interested about karrot, but cannot find anything, maybe good feedback make it easier for people to find information on the background, and what is happening
      • maybe they end up on landing page, but how would they find out behind the scenes
      • wondering if there was a maastrict group that used karrot?
      • also was thinking about the foodsharing france thing, bruno is looking at a foodsharing sweden platform based on karrot, and seeing in france by default they are going with foodsharing platform, potential to collaborate?
    • Nick:
      • there has been controvercities between karrot and foodshring (karrot started to be a tool that distinguishes from foodsharing). would be very good to bring them orginazationally together
      • Foodsharing Academie seems like a good place to get bother more connected
      • building tech infrastracture to connect both would be great!
      • EU supports fediverse
  • Master-Thesis document [R]
    • made a draft, encourage you to look: FOSS_thesis.docx - Google Docs
      • meta review
      • stuff to programme where nick can look
      • something about sociocracy where nathalie could look at it
    • doesn’t have to be a big text, but give the student who reads it, a kind of feel of what is there to explore, always need to talk to student to explain further
    • doesn’t have to be academic or good text, can be a brain storm/thoughts
    • timelimit: no timelimit, but would be great in the next two weeks to get something
    • no need to make it proper, can splurge it out somewhere :slight_smile:

Next meeting:

  • fellowship thing [R]
  • forum spam [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • review money amounts [E/D?]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
  • write on forum about push notifications (bell? new UI to activate?) [Bruno]
  • feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
  • write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
  • Butze refines the Master-Thesis document regarding meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development (butze)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout