2.2/3.1 interesting about more specific team parts
curious if we’ll consent on each others membership now
how do we include tilmann here?
precusor to having circles
consent on the policy?
consent!
celebration!
consent on each others membership?
who becomes part of the team now? wait for vasilis? butze? tilmann?
either consent on the three of us present as members, or include people we know intend to be a member (vasilis), or include all potential people (tilmann, butze), or delay
Proposal: Members are Bruno, Nick, Nathalie and Vas. Reach out to Tilmann and Butze.
agreed!
Vas indicated wanting to be part of the team, need to hear from Tilmann and Butze
neighbourhood democracy call [R]
Nick had a call with them finally
a listing of a lot of projects
would be nice with they promote Karrot to their people
connection with the UK
person on the line was part of Barcelona en Comú, into municipalism (fearless cities) and trying to bring that to the UK to become part of this movement
Fearless Cities is coming to Sheffield in the UK in May, invited to so a session on Karrot
5 aspects of it, will be on the website
bringing ppl together
deepening democracy
assets and buildings
common interests
socioecological transformation
they could promote Karrot by telling a story in their website
municipalism, learning more, having an exchange about the context, e.g. in nordic/swedish context
where are overlaps, e.g. with foodsharing towns and municipalist/democratic stuff, foodsharing is quite big but also invisible and it’s own thing, so at least sharing about that
trying out new use of Karrot, parent coop, some reflections [E]
been thinking for some time to try introducing it to the parent co-op where Brunos kids go
had a meeting with working group (info working group, that does website, etc…), would have to bring to board later on
they currently use dropbox for collecting documents, policy, working groups, scheduling, excel sheets, a forwarding email address (that doesn’t work very well, so karrot might be tangible help there, problems are people not getting added to list, and sometimes emails don’t arrive), working groups using WhatsApp to co-ordinate meetings, used to have facebook group which is now quite inactive
when presenting karrot, mentioned principles/values (e.g. not using commercial tools, analogy of thinking about food consumption about kids, organic, sustainability, also need to think about technology, as WhatsApp was proposed for main tool). proposal to use karrot for messaging, including threading to keep more focused discussion, then other aspect for organising working days using activities (currently one person assigns families to days, and co-ordinates families switching), karrot does self-assigning so would need a different workflow in karrot, maybe could be useful feature to assign other people? or suggest?
also for organising working groups using places, could connect to teams/circles in the future
advantage using karrot, more insight into different working groups, transparency, and personal support from Bruno to support use of the tool, and lead to future development
one person is trying it out, resistance to something new, and to learn, came up already, recognise that, getting feedback about difficulties in adopting karrot is useful
the process of creating a new group is good to notice little roadblocks in the way
in the long run can see if it can be useful or not, will continue gently pushing it, could become a co-operation to gather feedback to lead to further development
one wish that was expressed: “it woudl be good to fewer number of digital tools” (e.g. get rid of dropbox), combining file storage and chatting, some tools you can’t get rid of
without turning karrot into nextcloud/dropbox/file storage… can we find a way to create some basic organisation of files… good enough for groups to work with, hard to join them into one tool right now
will continue exploring, and collecting feedback and hurdles, can share notes on the forum
feedback from Nathalie
really cool, like effort to bring to local place, and personal connected group with different purpose
a lot of learning there, very good feedback
curious if it gets decided to use it
like the feature ideas coming: suggesting someone for a slot
reminded me of thought about time when someone is inactive, e.g. not good to kick people out if they don’t log in for some time, so feature could be a disadvantage if people don’t log in a lot… different context to this loose thing
making more core settings more configurable
like direction to think about features
feedback from Nick:
useful to get the understanding regardless they will use it
learning from these cases
thinking of the CSA model, one example, create a group and collect all the issues. An easy way of becoming involved
idea of suggesting someone for a slot is like an invite for an event
question of having a suite of tools: not usually something that people want
relates to NlNet question: what is the core of a tool, what is peripheral
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
not yet
write a post on karrot to announce the members, invite tilmann/butze to apply, inform vasilis we automatically made him a member [Nick]
done
add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
done
add agreement to Karrot group and forum [Nathalie]
done
review bio/description on people’s page [all]
poked people
follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]
not yet
4. Discussion points
review date for membership policy [D]
1 year?
Question: 6 months review date and 1 year end date?
nah, we can just do 1 year review date, and policy stays active (no end date)
1 year! done and updated
membership Butze? [E/D?]
would he like to become a member
feel’s like he’s still learning
would like to wait until he’s made a real contribution first
maybe in 2/3 months
doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to become a member
still onboarding
reactions
Nick:
at outlandish had members, people intending to become members, and collaborators (not intending to become members)
quite like that idea
Nathalie:
makes sense, sounds reasonable
wondering why onboarding isn’t part of being a member?
makes the membership something bigger, would like it to be less big
experience in SOFA, relatively quick to be member, became welcomed as member in a circle, then onboarding later
Bruno:
makes sense
maybe more symbolic value, what does it really mean to be a member, and how should onboarding be
maybe becoming a member means having some commitment, or being involved, with enough knowledge, or skills, but not clearly defined
so fine to go with flow with subjectivities
happy he’s interested
Butze:
let’s reschedule to a month or 1.5 months
thinking about proposals where I see some kind of contribution for me
will take time
feel like I can contribute with proposals
need to wrap my head around it a bit more
think not far from now I’ll become one
Nick:
would be happy to see federation between Karrot and FS and can support that
Butze:
student came in wanting to write masters thesis, with idea of a 3D printed sharing box, with a QR code, people can give photos/videos of themselves, tried to make a food context… too big for masters thesis
thought is communities collaborating and talking, good for physical exchange, and it faciliates exchange
what about a karrot box? people from one community could put in things, e.g. seeds, harvests, and you send it to brussels to see harvest of bath, would like to experiment, trying to get theme into it that it’s beyond just saving food, but also prosumption practises
Bruno:
have fun session planned for next co-working + 1, maybe suitable space for that
1st November is date for that
karrot.foodsharing.lu [R]
have more groups as subgroups
localised activities
support self-hosting of Karrot
coop cloud, worked with Michal
Nick tried to set-up server themselves
coworking session with Daniel and Elisa to deploy Karrot, server set-up most complicated
run their own fork?
using postal server for incoming emails
possible modifications
joining automatically a default group?
doesn’t need a landing page
maybe something around logos
interesting to see how this would boost collaboration between groups/ platforms
invited Daniel to include feedback and idea to our forum
potentially interested in development
nice to hear!
plug-in infrastructure for Karrot? build in for own instances, implement in core project later
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
Nick: going on a trip next week, may or may not be around, let’s see
Bruno: started prep work on creating foodsharing sweden
Butze: going to meet Valentin Thurn soon, starting to network
next meeting:
tonight: sofa/fosc call scheduled: need to check with Nathalie if we try and postpone, or what?
Wednesday co-working: fun session co-working! nick, bruno
next Tuesday general: yes!
pick facilitator for next week: Butze (with support)
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
add butze as a contributor on the forum [Nick]
done!
review bio/description on people’s page [all]
butze did it
not others
follow up on tasks coming from the membership policy [Nathalie]
I think this was done?
please test push notifications on dev.karrot.world [all]
bruno was testing, and generally
a query as to which things cause a push notification
bruno will continue thinking about which things could
could also explore more prominent banner to prompt to enable notifications
add no-show questions to forum post for prompting [Nick]
asked kranti about it
test if pictures are uploading correctly with the right orientation [Bruno]
bruno did it, no issues found
feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
not yet
4. Discussion points
meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [E]
present idea, and explore first thoughts
background:
presenting karrot to be used at parents co-op
checking specific use case, exploring what we do, which digital tools we use, what we need, how could karrot be useful, what is missing
meta part: what can we abstract from that that would be common to other groups doing self-organising that might have grassroots vibe, might be well structured but without professional paid organisation structure
helps us get a bit clearer on karrots concept, currently half clear in our heads… would be extremely useful to do that, lead towards a definition of what kind of groups karrot is for, based on which concept
community building, self organising, what do those things mean, start looking at needs, how are groups using digital tools, what are their needs, what does karrot offer now, what could it offer… start gathering information more systematically
e.g. communication needs (quick? fast?), onboarding… documentation system, like a cloud drive thing… but for what
not that karrot would provide everything, but have a clear sense, what is the actual value we can add on a day to day basis that is not being provided by any other tools
and how it can/might interface/interoperate with other tools, how much to reinvent wheel, or not… how might we create something new? how much can we copy?
looking for a structure/basis to start that journey
could start with notes from this specific case, could also go back to when we adapted karrot to bike kitchen (have videos from user testing)
Butze:
find this very interesting, prompted task to get this into some kind of thesis structure, could be a task for a student, who can look into it for 3 months, interview us, users
have a short manual in mind, could give a student the task to develop such a manual, and get into feedback loops with us
see it as good value and very important
could really sharpen karrot foci (different focuses)
last days I’ve been on karrot, saw link to welcome page, and first word noticed as “community building”, relates to recent papers, discourse is that “community building needs personal encounters”
interested to see how we see karrot and community building together, how karrot supports community building
a lot of technology building does not focus on this
worthwhile and useful for a student
Nick:
also see this as really valuable
from wider FOSS community a lot of developer centric around tools (dev can be self-empowered)
when ou are not a dev, you have to work with a whole team (which is a lot more complicated
→ gab of tools, that are suitable
Karrot has a more grounded approach (devs and team blend)
nobody gives a shit about a tool… people want to do actions, want to connect with other people (rather than explore tools)
there are more projects that Nick knows, that have a similar interest (we can do it together)
Nick suggests connecting with the author of Anarchist Cybernetics
Adam Greenfeld is interesting
Bruno:
happy to have such a positive response
feel enthusiastic about doing something, but unclear how it would looks like, could be bigger or smaller, so many possible scopes
could be more karrot focused, or more widely concept focused with broader collaboration, maybe could be both, could do our own work, and dialogue with other partners and collaborators, building knowledge together about community organising and digital tools
also have our own focused work on karrot, talking about more specific karrot features
not sure about next steps
would initially put some notes down on the forum with experiences with the parents co-op
would be happy for butze to go ahead and forumulate something for masters students to do
would be useful to look back at the experience we had with katies masters students
one concern, it would be become too instrumental, if from the students perspective, which is kind of default mode, could be something of interest to the student, but at some point they just need to get something done to pass the exam, so potential it’s just put in a box rather than coming from heart/curiosity, but ok that’s how institutions often frame things, if we’re lucky maybe not, but no harm either way
would be nice to reflect more on that experience and see how it could involve a student in a way they find it fun and experience to point and find it interesting
totally go ahead butze
could continue exploring now, or leave it as it is?
Butze:
got a lot of insights now, will refine what I’ve written in masters thesis document already
on point of whether student does it from heart: question of how we integrate the person, as karrot and supervisor, to be friendly to them, invite them to give updates in weekly call, will advertise as “who is interested in FOSS projects”, don’t want to focus on students who just want to get their points
bring the refined version back to meeting next week
Nick:
people in FOSS spaces collaborate in terms of report and case studies…?
no tangible outcome for now but would like to participate in discussions
It is connected to academia: Peter Bloom (Nick had a call with him, tlaked about vision - explored a lot of similarities)
a lot of overlap with karrot.world
sharedfurtures has funding, but no users
Nick see potential for collaboration: similar goals - Nick working on both of them. potential is to get better platforms than if projects work alone.
Chellange: different working models
Nick presented a document with thoughts to Animorph
Nick wonders in which role he talks to Peter Bloom
Bruno:
again the funny thing happening of duplicate work whilst pursing same goal, on different paths
funny having one developer in common, working in parallel, given that, totally worth seeing where we could collaborate, does it make sense, what is different
to achieve best outcome as society, doesn’t mean everybody should work together and co-ordinate, not really feasible, should strive for more of that though, capitalist mindset is to pursue our own goals and projects, e.g. tech for good and social projects, even though it’s not about making money, we’re still in the mindset of “my/our thing” we’re doing, should be able to try and join forces more and work together
sometimes there will be differences though, and worthwhile trying to pursue same goal/visions through different paths
for shared futures, would be nice to have a clear idea of what kind of features it’s trying to offer, and based on what kind of theory, and how is that different to karrot, how would they complement each other, which kind of ecosystem is it in trying to bring value to people doing self-organised community work
maybe nick can guide us on how to explore it, can we log in? create a group? somethingh hands on to get a clear picture of what it offers
happy to hear the vision/theory, and how a digital tool can faciliate community organising
Butze:
started to explore the website, see the general vision to bring people to collaborate
looking at academic profile of Peter, would like to talk to him if nick is interested to pursue it further and talk about HCI-related stuff
sent the link to co-worker who is interested and patient about exploring websites
happy to be an academic link
very nice thing that main developer (of karrot) is keen to work with others
tech updates
push notifications [R]
bruno had tested and we talked abouit it. will get into production
noshows [R]
nick talked to kranti, who said thats exactl what Nick should do. Nick will develope it
selfhosting [R]
Nick worked with Daniel. Had to do some things. It is working well.
place statuses [R]
Nick did some fundamential work.
plugins
it is a nice idea. got some good feedback. Aim is to get the front end thing build and put it into production. We could have some minor plugin on our own instance and see how it works.
video calls
technolog exploration. could we integrade something like BBB? Nick went Karrot and foodshasringon a journey to explore diffent tool.
Butze talked with Stefan K. [R]
board member of foodsharing e.v. one of the leading figures of foodsharing academy
nick and I met him at international foodsharing gathering this summer
contacted him to see if he’s interested to work on a proposal together, current submitted thing he didn’t have time to work on it
see a lot of overlap with my work, main goal is community building
we won’t do a proposal in the next 2-3 weeks, longer term project, looking into EU funding, going to start a first draft now with ideas
not just doing a foodsharing proposal, but combining with karrot, shared with himhe’s joining calls
stefan said he’d be really interested to know what is happening in karrot, but no idea where to look, shared we have the minutes, but didn’t know how to link him there
meeting in maastrict in december: how can maastrict get into the foodsaving/foodsharing circles, going to attend, and meet him, see what is happening there, we met some people in maastrict from international academy
when I have first draft will share with you (karrot), needs half a year to get a good proposal, and lots of stakeholders together
Bruno:
clearer idea of what the funding/project would be? get together foodsharing, karrot, community building? kind of open still, or is it more specifically worked on yet with a direction
nice and interesting to hear Stefan is interested about karrot, but cannot find anything, maybe good feedback make it easier for people to find information on the background, and what is happening
maybe they end up on landing page, but how would they find out behind the scenes
wondering if there was a maastrict group that used karrot?
also was thinking about the foodsharing france thing, bruno is looking at a foodsharing sweden platform based on karrot, and seeing in france by default they are going with foodsharing platform, potential to collaborate?
Nick:
there has been controvercities between karrot and foodshring (karrot started to be a tool that distinguishes from foodsharing). would be very good to bring them orginazationally together
Foodsharing Academie seems like a good place to get bother more connected
building tech infrastracture to connect both would be great!
something about sociocracy where nathalie could look at it
doesn’t have to be a big text, but give the student who reads it, a kind of feel of what is there to explore, always need to talk to student to explain further
doesn’t have to be academic or good text, can be a brain storm/thoughts
timelimit: no timelimit, but would be great in the next two weeks to get something
no need to make it proper, can splurge it out somewhere
Date: 2023-11-07
Facilitator: Butze, with support from Bruno
Minutes: Butze/Bruno
Participants: Butze, Bruno
Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 40 minutes
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
Wednesday co-working: Bruno will be there
next Tuesday general: Butze, Bruno will be there
pick facilitator for next week:
Consent to agenda
2 min
Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
write on forum about push notifications (bell? new UI to activate?) [Bruno]
feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
Butze refines the Master-Thesis document regarding meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [butze]
Discussion points
Foodsharing Sweden
new law: shops/supermarkets have to do proper recycling
good opportunity for activists
creat a structure of Foodsharing Sweden
idea: platform that has 3 pillars (similar to foodsharing.de): 1. Networking/Outreach/Connecting to new groups // 2. Digital platform, set up own karrot instance. // 3. Connect to bigger names/companies to establish national wide cooperations
Bruno had a call with students from a city called Jönköping. There is a foundational document (1-pager), where Bruno outlined the vision. Please have a look, comment and add.
there are not a lot of structured foodsharing groups in Sweden yet (Gothenburg is like the biggest and best organized… Gothenburg gets conntacted quite often and is asked for help - G. then shares their experience; digital platform could make this easier + the platfrom gives some identity)
good opportunity to learn from Foodsharing Germany
communities currently dont learn from each other
pragmatic reasons: a lot of effort locally already
a very limited number of people doing the core organizing, and others are “free-riding”
people already involved in many takss (local responcibilities) do not have the time for extra tasks
important to focus on it right away at the very start. Hard to do it later
structures can be implemented at the start of Foodsharing Sweden. Idea of a rule: every district needs a connection/networking ambassador
this relates to the whole CSA-discussion and fair contributions-distribution
fair contribution is also a big topic on Foodsharing (combining e.g. cleaning the FairTeiler and picking up at ‘good stores’ is discussed among developers)
people who take on the hard tasks (a lotof tasks) don’t feel appreciated and supported (two devs just left)
how do these structures relate or apply to local foodsharing groups?
a discussion of cherry-picking rule connected to people doing tasks
a lot of invisible/anonymous work is done to build up and maintain the structure
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
write on forum about push notifications (bell? new UI to activate?) [Bruno]
feedback on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
Butze refines the Master-Thesis document regarding meta-analysis of diverse use cases of Karrot to guide future development [butze]
Butze is looking at the 1-pager regarding Foodsharing Sweden [Butze]
for transparency could make the group aware there is a private group chat (not saying it’s a good idea, just a thought)
people will make private chats if they want it, if not in karrot, somewhere else
leads into concept of sub groups
design sprint for this?
motivated adding new stuff, commenting things
microdiscussions on tasks in the meetings
natural flow
replying to kranti, relates to some existing topics
how to keep it organised
assessing how important things are, ideally including the people who reports it, in a meeting/call to get more feedback
ongoing work!
future description of the tasks of the karrot team: curation of input and feedback from the community, turning it into a coherant whole
how do we connect all the stuff to the board, trying to remove noise of having content spread all over the place, can have links to discussions, sketches, history
we use to get a flood of ppl at some part of the year, undergrads who have to do their assignment,
hard to manage
havent seen any for a while…but some came in but I dont want to be grumpy.
I d like a solution so I dont have to go through the ‘toil’ of explaining what is going on and how to do and blahblah
give butzer details and they talk to them
spent some time with us in the meetings and then maybe engage
reminds me of CSA, people coming to weed tomatoes and weed the tomato plants themselves
reminds me of butze talking about tomatos when I visited in 2020 social.coop
like idea, ifyou want to contribute, have to join meetings, not just seeing what is on github, actually meeting with people running krarot, should be part of assignment, can report back to uni that’s the crack, have to understand some of the culture and say hi
in co-working could write a short guideline, e.g.:
thinking to send an application, negotiating location (as it’s in Paris)
asked for a list of case studies, they sent a list of countries
france, spain, luxembourg, germany
not clear what they define as digital commons, things like GIMP, or like karrot (that supports physical commons)
asks for a cover letter
one stream could be, digital commons when it comes to small scale agriculture
another could be, community support software + interopability with karrot, etc…
how could funding also be shared not just for the researcher, but also for the project(s)
not 100% sure to apply
either go with their agenda, fit into their thing, other way is to bring in more own ideas, ideas from agriculture + karrot
if with karrot
community supported software model + pilot it
connect with other projects and look into interoperability protocols
if you have any ideas, and needs/wants within karrot, can see about negotiating ite
butze:
looks interesting position
seems rather undefined
would give it a shot, and see how much you can put in of your ideas/agenda
curious, as EU funded, expects it shouldn’t be just in paris (vas clarified the countries)
did some research on EU funding recently, found some older calls connected to food waste, but this isn’t part of it
seems part of LIFE program, can send links
bruno:
sounds a very good opportunity
don’t know specifically what to suggest, regarding angle for karrot, brought up good topics already
maybe need to check if you have negoating power or not, if you have can connect with agriculture/karrot, otherwise have to be positive going with what they have to offer
not clear what case studies are yet
nick:
Karrot has already implicit connectins to commons,so framing within a commons
ask on my fediverse account for suggestions (eu tech, funding)
spend time in the co-working to go through it and fire of some ideas more specifically which might alight best
its within the NGI. Having got NLET net funding again looks favorably
we metioned commons in our last application. Its a point of strenth
vas:
so much to neogiate, won’t have thesis submitted by the start time
so fuck it, can submit whatever
collaboration on papers/works etc. [E]
Butze:
surprised at vas handing in a paper without butze knowing
in academic world, papers are main currency, for funding/careers, and making a point that people are collaborating, so important to share co-authorship
for CHI paper, leonie is main author, asked vas to provide feedback near the end
desire to establish practise to collaborate on papers
2 days notice was very short time
also respect if somebody wants to be single author
vas:
paper was on backburner
wrote last year, submitted to CSCW, rejected, reworking it this year
3 days ago, received message from journal, and do you have something to submit
supervisor, pushed to submit it as needed extra paper for phd
didn’t think to reach out, had to work and submit
butze:
paper was from a year ago
vas:
came out of nowhere
no a personal thing
bruno:
understanding is, vasilis submitted a paper recently, announced it was submitted, was last minute, … had submitted a year ago, then got to know about a call, and pressure to submit for phd, so sent it in
announced it today, submitted last night
understand butzes frustration
see the conundrum
nick:
butze:
not much to add, feel disappointed, understand some of the reasoning, but still don’t understand why wasn’t communicated 4-5 weeks ago (asking for some feedback - similar how I did with the CHI paper we submitted, on which I put Vas as a co-Author for his feedback), unsure about intention for working together on karrot papers
vas:
a practical decision
get the point, could have shared it when having wrote it, get it
not an intention showing I don’t want to collaborate, not at all
if you personally, don’t find it ethic within research community, can hear that and respect it
can imagine lots of other people I didn’t share it with, can’t share it with all the people at short notice
bruno:
positive, or solution oriented solution…
vas seems more in defensive mode, trying to explain why
heard disappoint from butze, and the question of whether vas would like to collaborate or not
heard vas say he would like to collaborate, making it clear there is an intention to collaborate under the practical decision
vas:
not here to compete, would like to collaborate
offer to speak in private with butze, also happy to have the space in karrot
butze:
fine to carry on the meeting now
vasilis:
not sure
happy to chat with butze if he’s up for it, even staying after call, or whenever
bruno:
happy to move on
nick:
offer to join a call with both of you
butze:
we can talk later about
they stay on the call after this one
socioracy for all fosc call…
call this evening 6 UK time
one topic is what collaboration means in the future
one suggestion: how to bring sociocratic features in Karrot
came from inviting them to foodsharing sweden, they were positive to this concept
multiple roles for bruno, part of solikyl, foodsharing sweden, and karrot
chatted with anna marie, we previously chatted with her (nick/vas prob)
positive feedback about the new feedback display (giving a better idea for their stats to see who did’nt give feedback, or dismissed it)
suggestion: pin message on top, to show important announcements. thinking about the rules of the group.
why not use agreements? they were not really aware of it.
ok… but how will people find out about the agreements…
can do follow up to see how it can be useful
option to pin agreement?
always pin all the agreements?
add feature to require consent to agreement, and they have to agree
show who has agreed/consented
could use the smiley/sad faces for it
pin feature could be used for many things, activities, etc.
nick also imagined personal “bookmark” feature, and “pin” would be kind of like the group-level version of it (and karrot is group focused, so group-level stuff makes sense there)
applying/joining group is another moment for consenting to agreements
need to be more integrated into flows of karrot, not just an item in the sidenav, otherwise they go unnoticed
same as offers
feedback is good example of something more integrated into other features of karrot
suggestion: give feedback as emoji reaction
membership review, what to do when people break rules
shared we will be working on software sanctions, they’d like to be part of that discussion
they have a 30 day ban if somebody is not following rules, ban from participation in the group, mostly focused on pickups, if they don’t show up to a pickup, arrive late 3 times, they get the ban
they didn’t know about the no-show feature
maybe people don’t want to be the snitch
if it’s related to a sanction it’s a bigger deal…
idea to allow groups to add custom bits of text in different places in the UI could help make things clear in the context of the group
sanctions feature would be welcome
if they don’t respect the ban, they use the membership review process
so far people have respected it
remember to invite them!
relating to admin roles, etc.
one person in the group, too bossy, claiming to be founder, only person that got trust karrots
trust carrot feature “too democratic”
others took over control of “admin” account from the person
suggestion: higher threshold, e.g. 5 … or remove it completely
the fact that we have the trust system, allowed power to transfer
creating an “admin” account, sort of created this situation to centralize power
usually a fear of distributing power
creating accountability mechanisms to stop people who just want to take power for the sake of it
what are the methods and tricks to distribute power?
karrot has principles of non/less hierarchy, but fewer mechanisms to encourage those practises
limitations of how much can be done via software, still based in the group culture
2/3 of those things from lund are in our nlnet funding, so validates those things
nlnet next steps [R/E]
they sent a doc that we should read, start the process to get the MoU
they’ve got welcome calls to the projects this time, one on 27th and 29th
“we will have the two welcome meetups next week instead of last month - on Monday November 27th at 9:30 AM CET and Wednesday November 29th at 15:30 CET to be precise” / “Hope you are able to attend one of the sessions, please let us know in time!”
need to go through document, and work out what we do
Nick and bruno read some in the coworking last week
4. Discussion points
review money amounts [E/D?]
overhanging from last month!
wise account 8.804,98 EUR
vas: 230, good
in the near future might ask for more
have 2 rents
nathalie: currently 200, wouldn’t go up, nice to have it continue!
bruno: 200, like to continue (absent, assumed still current)
nick: currently 200? was 500 before… wanna go back up to 500 cause I m doing lot of work on karrot, and I m about to spread my wings and fly. Few days for the other work.
butze: I have enough from the university,
total 1130 €/month
consent! but didn’t set the term
term: check in next month, to see how vas’s situation is, and decide whether to continue or review
nlnet update
full confirmation from NLNET, Nic and Bruno went through it, joined the welcome meeting and gave a 2 mins intro to Karrot, very developy, Karrot one of the few related to ‘people’.
we need to schedule a 1 on 1 meeting, refresh our plan, sth needs to happen around that. Will be nice if we have a little team commited on doing this thing.
entity
dont want to use my bank account (Nick). NLNET distribute money to individuals, no tax things.
-plan
similar to what we did but add all our bank accounts.
instead of one wise account, we do sth more complicated
or find a fiscal host, another legal entity, techcultivation somehow connected to NLNet and other ones,
have a legal entity, and are employed by the entity
don’t feel super involved in the funding, and don’t plan to dig in too much
if there is room, we could ask for more (inventaire went for full 50k)
not understanding what concretely we need to do
bank account
would like to have been clearer before, could have seen it coming, but maybe not too late, appreciate the research
wondering how it goes with our money agreement, don’t want a surplus of karrot money on my account, needs more attention how it would work
Vas:
happy with all the options
not sure about doing the thing with private accounts, would like to explore fiscal host or setting up own entity, personally flexible
from next month registering as a freelancer in UK
wondering if it’s a grant, and tax, etc… do we have an accountant?
happy to work to establish a legal entity (including fiscal host option)
Butze:
for the long run, a legal entity would be most sustainable, but it’s work… can be cumbersome, should be an association with a constitution that says it’s just about the financial stuff… a lot of people don’t like this kind of work
Nick:
its time to do sth other than the personal accounts,
either fiscal host or legal entity
not willing to work on it on my own
make a team to work on it, co-working on that
to create a more established entity requires comittment, if we gonna step it up I need to be woring in a team that is willing to comit, Karrot can be working here and there.
I m concerned whethere there is the comittment to work on that.
to me feels that we dont have the capacity to do it,
default: private payments through our individual accounts
next steps?
Nathalie:
wondered with fiscal host / opencollective thing, also there are things like who owns the domain, runs the server, etc. is a fiscal host enough? would be nice to have collectively organised, not just the money
wondering about timescale, might be time restricted from nlnet side
maybe play it the scenarios through in a co-working session
would like more details from nick, e.g. money on wise account
Vas:
second the question about the role of the fiscal host, I guess it’s only money
would be happy to explore fiscal host, aware bruno already reached out to techcultivation, wait and see what they write back
other scenario, karrot could have legal entity of platform co-operative or something, to give it a name
happy to reach out to people who know, which legal entity they use, find knowledgable people
Butze:
thinking about doug, he was often keen about these topics, maybe he has an idea
can contact him, maybe nathalie see’s him though
Nick:
still have concerns wheter sth proceeds concretely,
like the step of exploring existing projects (e.g. maxixims’ project)
aobut the domain and the server, if we have a legal entity we can put them in the name of the legal entity, doesnt change the practical part, hosting is in Kanthaus, domain is under my name
Nathalie:
is fiscal hosting enough for a project, maybe for a software project a step missing?
Vas:
if we have a fiscal host, does it mean we can apply for an eu funded project, as we have a legal entity? so elligable for things we weren’t before
Nick:
in my head the concept is that you become part of their legal entity.
time is not urgent but we should take on active steps
found 2 people who help people apply for EU funding, sending them some text
presented the text to foodsharing academie in maastrict on 24th nov, people enthusiastic, stefan enthusiastic about it, and see’s opportunities, co-organising with academia there is more funding possible
stefan is applying for about 60k for something at the moment
also working on the german version of the doc a the same time as the english one
would be happy for people to look through and get comments
proceeding in january to chat with the 2 people that can help
application overview:
application is about helping foodsaving and sharing initiatives to spread, and connect around europe, especially to help new communities to get started
to bring more practises of food resource sharing (knowledge, seeds, shit, soil) too
how this can inform platform development, in foodsharing.de and karrot.world
academic, not just HCI, geography, biology, social science
also chatted with Bianca, connecting with some of her professors
round:
Vas:
will go through the doc
makes total sense we butze said, all the things we have been discussion
moving beyond foodsaving/sharing as such, so wider sharing culture around food resources in general
question: is there a deadline in this LIFE application? timeline… (answer: at the moment no… like 3-4 years)
are we looking for consortium of entities? yes. and karrot as one of them? yes.
thanks butze for working initiating it
Nathalie:
really nice, seems you have a lot of knowledge about it already
EU funding always felt a bit scary, but feels more thought through already, grateful for this, having the office helping, feels solid
hopefully have the entity question figured out by then, so can be part of the thing
wondering what the karrot part in it? heard networking, organising, etc… can it also fund programming work on the software? wondering what the foodsharing.de piece would be, and the karrot piece etc…
feels early but promising
Nick:
gratitude for putting it together
really aligns with the topics, 4 pillars you presented
we go in Karrot, beyond foodsaving and food in total, to the wider culture, contained within the food realm still, was in a chat with Bonfire, to get to a consortium…oh my god the bureacurcay is insane
lots of companies that swarm around to take over this work, scared of that stuff, skills to interact with EU
inner strenght to keep your wise goals in mind and get through the consortium process
I like it if that foodsharing.de and Karrot will come together, which to me makes sense,
I like the potential for inter-cooperation between groups and things.
relates to this shared-futures project I work, on knowlegde sharing, resources on how to get things started up
I m trying to weave that into everything…(the shared-futures)
Butze:
applying for “a bigger number”, something like in the 7 figure range
organising gatherings, hackathons, festivals, go to communities
more than just the scientists going there doing the science work
more including social aspects around development
development of platforms too
need to work it out together
haven’t attended karrot co-working yet, but now added it into calender, so after back from hols after 13th dec, will attend!
will take some time now… half a year before it can be submitted, a lot of talks with foodsharing board, maybe can already get funding for preparing funding
will take a lot of work, and different from when companies apply, as it’s done voluntarily
Nathalie:
feeling for chances to get it?
Butze:
important for me as it relates to academic/activist work
will be a main task to work on it, usually if I have something in my head, think it has a lot of chance… no open call for helping grassroots initiatives, so work to get the right contacts at the eu
there is some knowledge from professor how to get EU funding
committing to after handing
Nick:
nlnet funding as feed-in to consortium funding, maybe foodsharing could do nlnet funding too
Nathalie:
plans? finish disseration then stay on in the uni? answer: yes.
dev update [R]
place statuses
adding capabilities on the code level to make it really nice,
drag and drop reordering
screen share…maybe next week
screen share no-shows went down,
Kranti got eventually got rid of the Gdoc
Kranti shared the b video that Nick made
place statuses…soon to be deployed
nick meeting with peter et al. next week to talk about shared futures / karrot [R]
karrot and shared futures carry on as seperate projects
more like a plug in model, if core bits of karrot, karrot software allows another project to buld on top of it, I think thats quite a nice model
merge as a project, seeing a pragmatic way of working together
I dont think anything is gonna happen quicky
next week I ll introduce karrot a bit and the potentials, in my mind one of the main benefits to karrot would be for funding, currently put another funding application for 2-3 yers.
one thing part interesting, New groups starting up. and sharing knowledge and resources, how do you get the group to have a plan, strategy…
project partners: animorph, uni of essex, community organising
digital ecologies of tools, maybe they have a list of tools and best practises of what tools they’ve been using, case studies
butze: want to organise hackathon with foodsharing developers, would be interesting if karrot participated, online or in-person
prefer in-person
Next time:
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
standing topic: check the board! [E]
Nesta report? any takeaways?
FOSS thesis - Feedback? (butze)
Hackathon (butze)
5. Actions/Outcomes
continue work on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno, Nick]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
try and read Butze’s doc through and write something, also suggests we could do it as group activity [Nick]
for co-working tomorrow
do research on opencollective legal/ fiscal hosting questions [Nathalie]
progress fiscal host / legal entity stuff in co-working [anyone in co-working]
write in about nlnet feed-in money in butzes eu application doc [Nick]
there might be several ideas to use again erasmus+ money, mostly atm conect germany, belgium, now the NL would be one more
some proposals, travel expedition, adult education as the main purpose
while the call is prepeard by Foodsharing.Akadiemie, Daniel and I will apply for such a call from a different perscepctive.
more open and more relevant for Karrot
education has to be in there
not just creating a network
meeting up tomorrow with ppl in belgium
part of the agenda to discuss Karrot as a tool for this group (unrelated to the EU funding ;D)
Bruno:
education? now working on the foodsharing.sweden. We ve been working on that
what is more unique about foodsharing?
educational aspect on creating community, woring as a collective, deciding things together
coming to togethere as the dif of sharing for charinty vs sharing for community
Nick:
happy working together
supporting, interested to put energy
interested to see what role Karrot plays
interested to see the role of self-hosting
FS luxemburg decided to run their own instance
If FSweden comes up as well…
practicing democracy
imporant to see how Karrot and Foodsharing are not competitive but can live harmonioysly,
not one mega tree but trees in the same forest
the municipalist movement (fealess cities) intersting in relation to bruno’s approach to education beyond saving food and into managing food as a collective resource
Nathalie
can you apply for another erasmus+
Bianca: YES. not just numbers about food and cooking
how do you start sth? how do you set up a group even?
this could be a whole pad
a puzzle of pieces for boostraping groups
Vasilis:
don’t have erasmus+ experience, don’t know framework, attended some before
like the idea from bruno, foodsharing as the medium to develop other skills, food democracy (more polite than food sovreignty)
happy to see how karrot can play a role in that, role of technology in exploring collective decision making over food as a common
partners: have a collegaue in athens, got funding, developed a board game based on food, goes around conferences presenting it, 10-14 years old + adults, open source game (CNC + 3D printer), get exposed into food politics through the game, competitive and collaborative. part of a research lab + legal entity in athens there.
that’s it.
Bianca:
I think that sociocracy could be a theme to pursue, all dif inpouts, board games is they like it,
lesson learned (5 objectives) → at the end you dont know what ur aim is
better stucture
ideas you want to pursue and commit
sociocracy sounds like the go-to?
sit together we daniel, or a totally different one,
would like to be international as possible
Vasilis:
how might karrot be woven into it?
practises to manage food waste democratically, and a method could be sociocracy
Bianca:
karrot could also be a beneficiary of the project
main goal could be to do training, e.g. sociocracy training, people in/behind/using karrot could join there
karrot brainstorming events
Nick:
prompt to consider foodsharing warzsawa
Biana has meeting with daniel + belium people
then we come back and chat more, and see how we can work together further
dev
custom place statuses [RED]
walk through?
what to do when archiving statuses?
Bruno:
looking really nice!
visible thing? a little explanation. Yes it is there ;D
wonder how it looks on mobile?
creating a status, add a new one, after u add a status it is auto-selected
feature directed to power users
archive the status and archive the places…so just give the option
Bianca:
not detailed comments, small to look on me phone
Nathalie:
great,
really like the models, in line thing, super great, appreciate the effor to make it consistent
how to archive all the places that have this or that?
even its ok not to introduce the default thing, have the drop down menu
you can always choose on demand
worth exploring having an archive but still leaving the status available?
Vasilis
cannot really understand why the archive, but makes sense probably
looks really well made
what happens to existing places when deployed?
automatically create customs that match the existing ones
Nick:
how to announce new features
use the banner?
last bit work a bit more on the archiving
plugins [R]
mergible very soon
this would really suit the self-hosted instances
hand the power
need if we deploye our own instance (solikyl) work our landing page
surface showing the group gallery and maps
self-hosting describing the community not the soft project (karrot)
foodsharing luxembourg to continue with karrot [R]
shared the news, whether to switch to FS or Karrot their own instances
decided to go with their Karrot one
nlnet next steps?
initial plan
add or remove ideas? potentially we can add fore more stuff and get more money
what do add in?
need to do some work in ourselves
a little list of stuff, and things from our board,
federation? activity pub but where? messaging chanel/route?
schedule call
- once we work out the above, have a call
legal entity?
in parallel to work on that? legal entity/legal host?
UK entities a bit of research. A european entity another option
UK entities, things aspects of the decision
who would be part of the entity?
a small group?
all of the users and the groups?
who should reveive money?
how/whats the right legal entity?
commuity shares?
who is to benefit from the entity?
can have our whole session
how we decide which country it should be in?
a decent chunk of a meeting to chat over that
-Bruno:
- quite a lot of work, research from our respective countries, problems and possiblities
- basic reseach to see that…compared to the fiscal host
- in favor of adding stuff (Nlenet), we dont lack ideas, prioritise stuff, about federation, wait until time is correct “dont put the cart in front of the horses”
- so much work on plugins
- come up with a decision by end of the week
Bianca:
allowing for grouprs to communicate among them
cross border interactions? importatn
legal framework: Beata could be a contact person. Laywer, a ref person. Would probaby be able to guide legal entities
Nathalie:
what do we need from a legal entity?
interested to see the NLNret project on a time scale. Have an idea of what we do when?
Vasilis:
reworking nlnet proposal?
how can we borrow principle of status/colours we used in karrot, and use that concept to create a codification system for our karrot task board, … moving towards more open and organising in terms of contributions… maybe move tasks into karrot itself
happy to explore fiscal hosting
what sort of represntation to participate in things, e.g. erasmus+ programme… do we borrow name of a fiscal host?
Date: 2023-12-129 BigBlueButton
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Butze, Nathalie
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 1h5
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
learning that it’s amazing it’s possible you can participate in the karrot features \o/
christmas is next week
next meeting:
coworking: nlnet scheduled for that time
nlnet meeting: … sign up!
next tuesday: nobody, it’s christmas!
pick facilitator for next week:
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
continue work on navigating upcoming activities [Bruno, Nick]
write feedback and reflections on suggesting Karrot to parents coop [Bruno]
try and read Butze’s doc through and write something, also suggests we could do it as group activity [Nick, Vasilis]
we did it \o/
do research on opencollective legal/ fiscal hosting questions [Nathalie/Nick]
I did a bit
write in about nlnet feed-in money in butzes eu application doc [Nick]
nopeynope
work on forum post comparing/contrasting foodsharing/karrot [Nathalie]
nopenopenopenope
4. Discussion points
nlnet update [R]
potential things we could also do, if we can extend the funding:
self-hosting/costumization. Eitheir way with Luxemburg group moving to their own instance this work will be done
high demand activities/activity limits. There are real-life cases where groups want to use the software to put limits over some activities.
Software manual. We think of that as a click on interactive manual for Karrot.
Improving the concept of the board (tasks board). For Karrot as project and for groups as well. Board can be a new features that groups can use to organise. Also real-life cases, groups asking to use the software to better organise tasks beyond foodsaving activities only.
Progressive interface (we keep that on the side). Needs a lot of work maybe and exploration but we can still introduce it.
nathalie:
is list too long? can we narrow it down, 2 or 3 maybe?
like the ideas, some more priority
software manual - still have some motivation, don’t have full clarity around what is the desired format/outcome, don’t have vision for in-software version of it
seems enough if nick/vas present, don’t feel I could be very useful
priorities? (or emotional reaction to them )
like self-hosting bit + customization part
high demand activities seems to fit to style of funding, but personally not so attached, didn’t personally experience the problem
manual - middle, nice
task board, a bit lower, whole new thing, probably very simple version, needs more thinking, probably better task boards… and we use discourse… wonder if a simple solution is useful as it’s missing features, or could be todo list or pad? haven’t thought about it, so less in favour
progressive interface, nice, a bit newer, could it be possible to enable editing view, even if you’re editor… thinking about interfaces, makes sense
butze:
learning about it, can’t add much
progressive interface strikes me the most
others sound good
manual - people don’t read manuals, also I click away the interactive manuals
have 3 meetings tomorrow, can’t add anything to it, and low on energy so will not attend
legal entity [R]
Nick asked at a co-tech forum and got nice replies
Nick writes to the social change agency, and then we’ll see how it goes
then we need a conversation with more people
question on the forum: what is the driver for us to do it
Nick thinks it is still about the allocation of money
alongside people were quite enthusiastic about Karrot - reminded Nick of ‘marketing Karrot’
Nathalie:
didn’t connect with opencollective people yet
don’t know how much work it is to have own legal entity
looking at driver makes sense
hesistant with UK-based one, but very distributed around, but would put responsiblity on nick, and with position in team, question if it’s the right way
how much do we want to rely on existing thing and use fiscal hosting?
time question? confirm with nlnet, and how it would work out from then
butze:
last time said most sustainable is to form own entity, was thinking…
in groups where we formed own legal entities, actually not so much work to maintain them, most work is in ones head… the thought of having to do a financial report, of having an entity you are responsible for, and can’t oversee all it’s actions, puts a lot of stress on people
so maybe not most sustainable to found own entity, but maybe go first into fiscal host, with aim of how to be more financially secure, to enhance organisation, and next step for legal entity later on? could be wise to do
can be pressure having entity, are we doing things right
nick:
main thing stood out is better to understand the hestiantcy of Natalie
language thing is also crucial to think about. German legal entity was difficult for Nick, because others had to do the correspondence
Trustroots is a legal entity in England, although nobody lives in England. they do it remotly - we could do it similarly
it needs work to do because nobody else is doing it. Nick would like to not do it, but it needs to be pushed forward
nathalie:
it is true, you can use opencollective own legal entity
process feedback: would appreciate if notes would be put in one of the places, rather than using feedback as notes (as don’t usually look there)
can archive place types, and the places stay in the list
deciding if we want to have it you can still keep places with a place status that is archived… could make it an option to choose in the menu
don’t have a strong preference
not sure how it works with statistics/filtering
interesting it’s the most complicated part of feature
butze:
question: what are places?
places are either the karrot representation of a local place, e.g. supermarket, a garden, etc… has location, info about it, and communication feature (wall), and you can set activities for a place (they are always bound to a place), but also places can be like virtual places, like in our karrot group, we use it more like different channels (e.g. general, funding, development), have same features, walls, activities… so e.g. when we have a call with external org, we tie it to our “outreach” place
for more flexible in places, they can have different types, like categories, that you can self define
you could make types as fairshare point, supermarket, etc…
now discussing place status, e.g. is it co-operating or not, or another tag
every activity has a feedback feature, said earlier I’d rather not see notes in the feedback section, but in the wall of the corresponding place (e.g. general for notes)
also worth favouriting places that you like, and you get notifications about things in there, and they appear on your menu
for us they work like channels
nick:
differerence lays in the statuses (rather than the types)
it is hard to explain what the situation is (because it is to detailed and complicated)
nathalie:
have a little preference to remove the ambiguity
do you need to pick a new status? if somebody doesn’t do it, and there are hanging places? cleaning up mindset?
can you make them choose one?
activity bug fix [R]
different use cases that need to be supported
Nick made a change - it is a PR in progress
Daniel want to give Feedback right after the start time.
Now you can give feedback right from the start. But the feedback will be displayed after the meeting
nathalie:
nice to hear about the interaction between warsaw group and luxembourg, and the two people talking
sounds like a good solution
nice process
butze:
well done
christmas fun dev
playing with video calls \o/ with mediasoup prob
Announcements: Sent 4-pager about EU-Funding to the consultants. Sent the Thesis document to students (Butze) [R]
also had the shortcuts one in mind, don’t know if it’s so helpful, but sometimes rely more on shortcuts, notice it especially when working on another tool, then switching to karrot
)