not very clear about the governance structure of the group, nathalies proposal is clearer here, we want to know how they make decision, could refine wording about the position to make clearer how the group came to the decision and how they’re in a position to bring that to use
like the thing that they tried the feature at least once, although not completely sure, as maybe there could be a situation that it wouldn’t work for?
not very clear on the “database admins will act based on this agreement”, based on the karrot team agreement I guess…
typo on “the the Karrot” (the Karrot God?), I guess the Karrot Team
ask for clarification on what those two lines meant
on removed things, maybe these things were too detailed, and more of an internal thing, so good
Vas:
makes sense to not include the 3-or-more people, 3 is random number, if we did add a number a percentage might make more sense
added point about their governance agreement makes sense, prevent hijacking a group by new members contacting us
some groups don’t have a governance document though, so might need a bit of back and forth, and some small groups are flat informal organisations
judging vs trusting, on evidence… “ideally” is quite open, so allows for the scenario… for a group that doesn’t have clear governance, we would start having to judge the value of the word of an older member vs newer member, karrot team ends up the judge in these scenarios. maybe an extreme case.
makes sense to have tried the membership review once
database admins can seek advice or escalate… guess the idea someone can just do it if it’s super clear already, otherwise can go into a discussion with the karrot team
quite happy to proceed, makes sense
however, if we delete the 3-or-more people, one person could come up and make a request, would make sense more to be a percentage, e.g. 20% of members should agree, or provide list of their emails, or something… 20% is random number, but would make sense
Nick:
also like the show your gov agreement
happy with modification
tried the membership (I approve that)
get rid of the 3 ppl
get rid of the time period bit
one-time removal +1 keeps it simple
didnt fully comprehent the database admin
given the actual ppl who are database admin is ok but still it is ok to bring it up to the meeting with the Karrot team to understand what is the case with the membership review features
can we delete the whole last section?
i think shorter agreements are better
principles
what u do (requesting)
what we do
-would be ok to have a good enough for now agreement
-rework the words tomorrow in the meeting?
-put it for 1year
Bruno:
start thinking of scenarios, and in-practise cases…
and pondering wider thoughts for bigger platforms (BigTech platforms have shit moderation… comply with law, minimise cost, so AI and poorly paid people)
how much can we refain from judging role? always cases where the group can’t contain a situation, could escalate to board, or police, or other wider structures. not easy. and we cannot guarantee we cannot make judgements. even if judgement about the processes of the community.
just reflections, hopefully don’t have to deal with the extreme cases
up for a “safe enough for now…” and work as we progress
capacity and complexity at scale… how much can be assigned to the group themselves, 100s of 1000s of active groups? how does it look like in the context of community supported software compared to capitalist organisations, would be really innovative… nothing like that right now, moderating on that scale for non-capitalist orgs
Vas:
good comments from Bruno
any way to refain from having a judging role?
makes sense to do things at a human level, not having AI deciding anything
for 100s/1000s groups cannot do that model, … but maybe Karrot Team would be bigger
if we implemented roles feature and trust for role, maybe we have more “admin” roles that allow people to remove people directly, so they don’t need to ask us to mediate
e.g. current case was not asking us for advice, but asking us to do something they have already agreed without their group, more a technical request
leads us to discussion as we explore the CSX model
in luxembourg they have a conflict team and a wellbeing manager, but could not resolve situation, karrot membership review process doesn’t meet their needs so well, but neither did their community processes
Nick:
dreaming hat back on. wider society and technology? big tech exploited workers doing modertation from a ‘poor’ country for a rich country.
instance administrator in Mastodon, fediverse is currently undergoing a lot of growth and so active topic there…
making visible the invisble power of database admins esp for more informal projects
its not a desire to be judging, we could rework the revelant sentence though on the text
its hard to know what judgement is
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
quick round, no discussion
we’re all blank on this right now
from cybernetics, how much an org can cope with “variety” coming in
idea to have it as a standing topic to look at the board
how it relates to wider community and needs
sense to bring things forward when there is space available for development, rather than piling up everything
lots of things come up that are not in github issues or on the board
should we maybe not use Github issues at all? Bugs for example are not always clearly a bug, but maybe requires discussion, a new feature
working towards outcome/decision about how the flow can work at the moment, proposal for use of GitHub
ongoing planning for Göteborg trip [V]
Vas applied for 2 month studentship to Switzerland in June/July, visit some CSAs, then bring this knowledge/discussion into Karrot, and physical project, for ongoing exploration
in the meantime… plan to visit Göteborg and Luxembourg…
maybe potential to visit Bruno all together
open proposal for May, maybe a bit last minute
Vas could go to Göteberg anyway in May, and maybe another later trip
… waiting to hear about going to Switzerland or not
a round!
Nathalie: excited about this, could make something happen, would be nice to see each other, don’t have clear framing, could be more visiting Bruno, or super intense Karrot weekend, or in the middle? May is quite soon… but still waiting for Vas’s reply… [Vas: reply is due this week], not a massive trip, wondering about prices and travel, have some weekends in May… end of May but then middle of June, maybe July… fuzzy…
Bruno: happy to welcome everyone to Göteborg, getting to dates… would be good to plan it well, in May there are some days to align with that might be better, would be nice to have some Karrot time together, family visits… some visits to not align with… end of May, beginning of June… co-ordinate with summers/vacations… have to work out a place to stay, can check with friends, etc. potential for a nice little cottage house on an island (Orust) that a friend has…
Q: may? beginning/end? [Vas: avoiding end of May, lots of travel, greece, etc. may 10th-20th makes sense, could work well?]
Vas: may works regardless of switzerland plans
Nick: was going to say all of May is out, but a well planned trip could work mid-may centred around weekend of 20th (weekend before/after are busy)
another quick round of what next?
Bruno: not much to decide now, go through a bunch of filters to see if it’s happening in may:
a) switzerland trip for vas or not [LIES!!! he is up for mid-may regardless]
b) nicks availability
c) to see availabilities here
d) nathalies availabiltiies
open, but can’t decide anything right now
if not may, then later during summer? could open up other possible locations
Nick: my availbility is quite possible mid-may, if we decide very soon, and plan travel and money well, not sure if our momentum will get there, but if things are aligning, can organise solidly and quickly… will not fly
Vas: prioritise asking Bruno to see about asking mums and timeframes, e.g. 15-20 may, we don’t need to force Bruno to be with us all day, can then start checking how to get there, can do it regardless of Switzerland, checking newcastle to Göteborg, train/boat/etc, takes ages and expensive… go to dublin, then göteborg cheaper and faster… we can work out where to stay, so don’t burden Bruno with logistics
Nathalie: not available 13th/14th may, but would be after, thinking more about weekends, can think within week, need to think about how to work within that time, current plan is to have free days here and there rather than a bunch of it, reality coming back… travelling until 13th may, also beginning of June doing something… need a bit of time to let it sink in, and research, getting more realistic about distance and time, can see how it can happen, maybe stay alone in Sweden a bit, glimmer of an idea! would like to travel, not completely convinced
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
5. Actions/Outcomes
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
discuss reply to Darren during co-working [Nick/Vas]
progress hacktionlab CSX proposal during co-working [Nick/Vas]
minor: “Do that with the help of a board” clarify what the “board” is
clarify “standing point” each meeting, maybe too much to go through every week, maybe we don’t need a decision each time, maybe takes too much space in weekly meetings, as they are operational parts, so weekly meeting can be more focused on decisions, although if we’re in a routine it could be short, could try it… don’t have to fill it every time… we have 2 standing topics now
fine to try it
Nick:
also like it, short and straight forward
clarify which place to add new topic, backlog or new ‘incoming’ category
agrees on ‘Kanban board’
github issues still for purely technical topics ‘will be reserved for operational technical issues and usage will be minimised’
update document - more like a next step, not ongoing thing. Or say ‘keep documents updated’
likes standing point: could be short, check if something needs to go on the agenda, not going into every topic deeply, maybe clarify that more
big picture: how to prioritize? this proposal is already widening this decision. Next step: bring this more to the community?
Bruno:
appreciates improvements \o/
agree with reflections on the standing point, not to be a very time consuming thing, can decide whether we need to go deeper into it or not, and otherwise would be very brief, culture around the work and weekly meeting let’s us create how we manage it. if we do end up getting bogged down in discussion, could try only once a month
wondering about the correct space to make the decisions about what to prioritize, relates to do-ocracy aspects (the people who are doing decide what/how things get done), also relates to governance, still nice to have some of that if people have motivations to work on particular things. OTOH widening the decision making forum to the wider community would be good.
keeping this pragmatic right now, the karrot team is a good space for this deciding, as we incorporate feedback from groups
right now connection maybe not good enough for group members to get involved there
consent:
Nathalie: yes!
Nick: yes!
Bruno: yes!
we’ll put this as an agreement on the karrot team & feedback group, with a review period of 4 months
we decided not to wait to check with Vas, as it’s not a very dramatic proposal, and changes can be proposed in the future anyway…
organising the board can be done during co-working, tomorrow and in general
missing a “currently working on” column? (or use forum “assign” feature)
wondering how tags look, and assigned cards
extra columns could be nice, e.g. active design process, activate development
would be nice to write descriptions for “About the X category” topics
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
a round!
Bruno:
feels like the topic is progressing since making HacktionLab proposal
don’t have anything specific now
touched on it today slightly with the question on prioritizing the workflow
Nathalie:
update on Karrot & FOSC exploration, people filled out when2meet survey, date being sent out this week
John/Jane will take lead on preparing the meeting, faciliating and notetaking, nice Nathalie doesn’t have to do those bits
it should give a bit more input on this topic
was thinking, about the board… this dev-decides → team decides → maybe community. noticing changes in team and faciliating, and asking for consent. could reflect or formalize more. we still didn’t actually clarify what the “karrot team” is and who is in it… could formalize the team structure.
struggle with ideas on involving the community more, when we are less clear about the team itself. community involvement looks really unsure, whereas doing our team structure itself can move us forward, and look at community after that. get’s overwhelming and unsure how it would work, but do appreciate that
Nick:
work coordination, each person knows what they’re doing
political structure, doing things differently to corporate tech
going beyond rumour of group leaving, how to understand needs, and open discussion
round
Nathalie:
can relate, with sense of rumour, and semi-public information, feeling a bit unsure
conversation about translation of foodsharing in #foodsharing-dev, promoting to non-german groups
could start a conversation, could drop it, an open conversation could be nice
subgroups are useful, and more formal structures on foodsharing than Karrot
Bruno:
important to get feedback if groups do decide to leave
even if we can’t provide for the unmet needs of the group right now
nothing wrong being part of another chat
fine to bring it up, having seen information on #foodsharing-dev
Nick:
complexity of feelings is interesting, part personal, part organisational
feeling good about the way things are with foodsharing
freedom to use any tools
feelings of ‘taking away’ users (both ways Karrot ↔ foodsharing)
bring conversation up, esp. around Karrot for bigger groups
Nathalie:
would be happy to bring this to a conversation, personal vs group
like to just say things
interesting to share potentials
Bruno:
good to be straightforward and open
practical thing good to act on
emotional part can also relate to, that we all have, work and passion, feeling of people taking it away or not appreciating it, good to be aware of it, brave to talk openly about it
not be carried away with the emotions for the practical steps, a good opportunity for growing the project, developing the concept and organisation
not sure best place for the conversation, 1-on-1 can be fine, or can find a good more open channel, others can also participate there, would be curious, up to you
Nick:
happy with our conversation
reflections about how to make space for emotional topics within an organistion
do a round, put some thoughts, might take some more thinking and discussionn, nlnet funding application is pending, doesnt feel like taking about basic income
stay more in the reflection phase, what worked well? what not? another round of ideas? How effective was this policy what did we like? understand what worked and maybe go to what we would suggest to change?
facilitate a review sesh, best if someone is willing to facilitate. Make a simpler proposal: extend until to find what is going with NLnet
how do we feel about it so far?
Nick: good to have sth to distribute money, made a material difference to me, guess to other ppl, now few things feel towards a dif direction. 1. Nlnet funding that we received, 2. transition: structrure and organisations and how we go forward? Feels of energy deficit open more topics, lots of uncertainties
Nathalie: still like the money agreement, money circles went really well. high idealistic standard the intrinsic bit? One tention is how we deal with the funding? I dont see such a big gap, have kind of both.
Bruno: if we get the grant then we re-reflect on how we distribute money. It feels nice as it is now. Wondering if things will collide if we receive new/other form of funding?
Vas: first time experienced money agreement based on needs, nice aspect of connecting through this topic, nice that happened, amounts changed in the past, interested to talk about basic income idea, interested how ‘intrinsic motivation’ lands with people, extrinsic also a factor
engage in conversation about Karrot/ foodsharing software usage of groups [all]
write a repy to FOSC reflecting to what we discussed [Nick]
4. Discussion points
FOSC meeting yesterday [R]
who (outside Karrot)
rust and fosc exploratory talks in the past (Jane from FOSC)
has interesting insights
John interested in local foodsaving and probably some coding/dev backround
Ahmed doing agile coaching
topics:
governance within the Karrot team (who, how we organise)
sociocracy and gov for the groups/users (features, guiding principles for governance)
fed stucture betweeen karrot groups and karrot team
focus on the gov to the Karrot team tbw as sth more tangible to start with
not a regular meeting, check again in a month, formal and informal
q: membership topic? fluid – non-fluid (rigid, well defined). What needs os projects have in general? need for dif membership models? What does it mean? How the sociocratic model can fit in os projects? keypoint: the context of os projects, alllowing dif participation types
open source can be capitalist friendly and get enclosed
how to make governance ‘open?’
CS x bring sth outside of software
how to organise self-organisation? maybe sociocracy is the way
what is the Karrot role in that? What kind of governance do we want to code to the groups?
something for Karrot, or maybe for the foodsaving community using Karrot?
didnt dick deep yet
for urban doers
no need for legal status (we need to confirm that)
The deadline for submitting your application is 14 June 2023
ppl meet to exchange knowledge: networking and paper/report to produce
10 projects will be selected
clarify if we are eligible to apply?
Karrot day(s) 2023 [E]
a regular catchup, even sth simpler, a community cafe (vas)
maybe can start discussing the idea of meeting as a team, if we see that we can do Karrot days as part of that. We meet for a few days and try to organise sth online with other groups. We can make sth easy (couple of sessions). Would make sense to organise those things together (bruno)
thinking on a purely online setup, finding a date is always a tricky part, would enjoy bringing it to an op level, play with the roles cocept, have concerns coming up in every meeting, we can build on last year exp, not super excited to bring this forward atm (Nat)
first thought was a bit of overwhelm, hearing the motivation from other ppl, will go on for 1 d thing and manageable, online feels more manageble and discreet, question who wants to steward? I m up to support (Nick)
european level foodsharing stuff, maybe other groups interested?
leave it hanging for now…
Kranti feedback [E]
would be nice to understand the situation fully, maybe do a user story, and then do something about it. Not sure if a feature is needed
vas:
had a chat with Kranti before, and invited her to the group
refered to a feature they’d like if people didn’t show up to pickups, so they can know who it was and enforce a penalty
invited to group to share with all of us
they are organised in small committees, one that goes to supermarkets, someone wanted feedback after the activity to see who actually joined (so collect that as data alongside who had signed up)
bruno:
core of problem, agreed. how to deal with people that did sign up, but didn’t show up.
maybe not clear for her how to find the “activities missed” statistics
maybe still a confusion between signing up and not showing up, vs activity missed (nobody signed up) (as karrot doesn’t know magically what happened)
a lot relates to community governance topics, which karrot could facilitate more, but not fully
if we had penalties/sanctions might be good, pausing people, softer sanctions… less than the membership review. report system? who could do that? voting? lots? of? questions? roles?
we don’t currently understand the structure of their organisation, which people would be assigned to deal with those situations
once we know about how it works in their groups, can feed that into how we could develop features that support that
nathalie:
lot of good things said
good hints in brunos reply
agreed the software doesn’t have this information if somebody doesn’t attend
would advise to understand it further, maybe always have two people for a pickup, so somebody can catch the case
not clear how much the issue is occuring, wondering if they have that understanding too
maybe feedback feature to collect who showed up could be nice, but danger of finger pointing, and public judgement
in foodsharing there is 1-2 people responsible for a particular co-operation, and would be possible to write to those people to tell them
good to understand better the group dynamics, is it because it’s growing, or accountability is missing. wondering how to deal with on a group level.
nick:
clear thing is understanding hte situation better. Strucrture of the group, how it should work, what is going wrong and then explore that together.
Community-level wisdom, a small feature or bigger feature, go through the process of understanding
standing topic of org structures, there is no contract that Karrot-team and groups on the level of software
vas:
will engage in convo on karrot
share the idea of using the feedback?
like Nathalies point it can end up like a policing situation, public shaming…
big discussion (another one!!!), free-riding behaviour is accepted… non-reciprocal behaviours, not having fixed roles, etc… if it’s this loose thing, is it ok if you don’t show up?
bruno:
next step, should make it clear to kranti, we’re very interested in taking this seriously, and helping her out, as it helps us a project
we want to have a better understanding of which part is the community organising governance part, and which part is feature-building software part, and the intersection of them (interesting juicy bit)
how can we continue developing software that supports the kind of community organising that we want to see
could suggest a session with her to discuss, not clear how much it’s a pressing issue, have to guage from her reply
nathalie:
basically agree
would like to see us responding in a way that’s taken on, or taken seriously
seems vas has some motivation there
personally like the idea to bring it to a session, and would likely join, if somebody else is organising it
wonder where responsiblities lie, one person responsible to keep convo going?
how to make it more concrete (rooted? more env friendly)
nick:
agree with everyone
falling in the gaps of resp bit. We dont really have that. Pipeline an ‘issue’. I like the intention of feeling resp to support the group, dev of features, constraint of our resources
try and not jump into everything
accountability frameworks
vas:
interesting discussion to pick up at some point… wish and will to implement ideas from kranti, or help out… we’re making the container for some groups, are we providing a service? or have our own agenda? bruno said nice thing, “the communities we want to see, and they want to see as well”
participatory design is all nice, but do we also have standards we don’t want to cross
with funding can you provide better services, does it make you a service provider? how much can we be that provider? vs what we wanna do?
Daniel self-hosting interest [E]
interested in setting up an instance for their group, and use the karrot groups as subgroups
nick pointed to co-op cloud offered more help with hosting
our self hosting guide we did before, is anyone hosting one?
nick: I don’t know of anyone doing so
bruno:
don’t know anything else about situation
nice to offer support
very interesting if they could run one, and see what they do with it, seeing how they organise a big group
question comes up about inter-group interactions, relates to breaking-the-silo, doors-not-walls, but need more work to create more spaces for interactions beyond the groups
the solution (with a general group) could work
design question for groups
people in hylo have been into these topics, working with prosocial community
karrot can improve a lot there, creating more flexilbity and other spaces, people that don’t belong in groups, etc…
nathalie:
makes total sense, would be curious to see
would still be same software, not a fork
nick: I guess
reminds of discussion about how to run sociocratic organisation with karrot, see two ways:
“places” for circles (as don’t see who is in the place, favourites, not members), very transparent
other way is own instance and “groups” for circles, many groups, but features make more sense for group-as-circle, applications, defined membership, membership review… circle voting…
wonder how it would work with loads of karrot groups? how do you show how they relate… could have org diagram seperate
very closed though, as wouldn’t see what is going in, and a whole group just for a 4-5 person group seems overkill, not perfect
very interesting
nice to see his comittment to karrot
don’t know anything about foodsharing part of it
nick:
didnt interpret as going away from fs but exploring all options maybe
would assume both explorations (Karrot and fs) continue
offered to help with data migration
interesting what shared already regarding relations between groups (nested and real group)
hylo: had indiv groups now can have multiple parent and child groups. Sth like that would make sense. Can support dif ways of relating.
if they have their own instance they have acess/ownership of their data? But if they want to delete an account then they do not reach back to us but do that themselves…
50-70 people, they’ll choose apply then get selected, or not
can include in the application if you want to give a workshop
question for us is if we’re going
we had been talking about a workshop before, and this seems like a participate form, but maybe it’s all the same
collective filling it out? or us as individuals?
vas:
checking dates… gunna be in switzerland, so quite close by, works on personal level, not sure have capacity to organise a workshop, as in june we have the CSA thing with nick, then working…
for fun of it, like the idea of going
vas wants to hang out in the bar (presumably to party)
last day in switzerland should be 20th august, so a bit tight with dates…
bruno:
YOU’RE MUTED!!!
ooh august, hard for me to attend, work/family/kids, fri-sun
not sure about logistics just for a couple of days
unlikely, but not completely out of the question, would be fun
esp. if we want to do a karrot workshop, but not clear on that status, from our or their side, have to ask if they’d like us to something, and ask ourselves…
nick:
go where the energy flows, which seems that have dropped
try the meeting in person thing
would like to have the in person hanging out
we have difficult logistics and its ok to accept that
boat will be being built, partly present, party not a lot to do
in theory attending would work
could make sense to go to share about karrot, it seems it’s all about our topics
nathalie:
committed to go
50 people seems quite small, so exclusive, yearning for something bigger
would seem a nice end of foodsharing activities, as close to having nothing there, will be out by august
wonder who will be there that I know
aware of selection process
if nobody I want to meet, less motivated
generally motivated, and would be happy for karrot people to go
for workshops, maybe could offer sociocracy workshop
doing something for karrot would be nice, info point? show and tell? short presentation, could be quite unprepared…
“workshop” is more participatory thing
spontaneous show and tell, walk through software, show it’s there… half hour, half hour questions, good bye!
bruno:
saw on application form, they might have childcare! ah! could bring one… if we all go would feel more motivated, will investigate
really like to understand better how to support the “uncomfortableness” that Nathalie described. Would like to do something to resolve it
Bruno
didn’t realise until now that there is some uncomfortableness at not working all together, some background I don’t fully understand, and some personal aspects
one way people seek to resolve, is to separate things, where do we stand on a personal level, and an organizational level, how do we co-operate? can we separate? can we untangle or not?
thinking about own-experience in foodsaving community, so many personal things and conflicts come up when people are active in the project, how can we untangle or separate. maybe something that can be made better with clearer definitions, and boundaries. what is project and what is not.
not trying to advocate corporate mentality of HR, and only focus on work, ignoring personal, but to some degree, in general that has some truth
topic of personal situations and how they relate to a project
a movement to formalising things, when there is uncertainty or conflict, a move towards making things more explicit and more formal, have observed
not sure how to connect that back to karrot
interesting to continue talking about it
relates to some aspects of open source culture, where people might have little connection
Nathalie
intention wasn’t to look at the personal level, but how our organising can support us
Tilmann not only example of unclarity around membership
Nick
feels like not understanding what’s happening and how to navigate that, would need help
interesting reference (not that would like to have it on Karrot): 42/C4 | ZeroMQ RFC
topic needs more space, feels important
Bruno
can continue, is a standing topic
money amounts from June onwards [D]
how do we do this again?
balance EUR14224.98
Bruno: gets EUR 200 and would like to continue getting the same amount
Nick: 500 for one month. It was not clear when the new amount starts after we decide. Would like to continue. Karrot is main part of his life
Nathalie: EUR 200 for now. Could go down to EUR 150. Feels contribution is limited to meetings and co-working. Would like to eventually change to an hourly rate. Happy EUR 150
Vas: absent, probably partying, will probably keep getting the same amount EUR 230 to keep on partying. Keep it like that if he doesn’t object
relfection on decision-making process of the money amounts: would be nice to start with the explicit consent/objection
valid for 3 months, June, July, August payments. (payment itself is made on whatever schedule the person wants)
we need an accountant! Nick did April payment with the amount of the month before (paying it forward or backwards?)
for which month are we making the payment?
it would be good to have a note on Wise for the month
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
co-work on CSA/CSX [vas and nick]
add to feedback log thing what daniel said:
An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.
share notes from FOSC meeting with Karrot team [Nathalie]
Date: 2023-06-06 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: All
Participants: Nathalie, Vasilis, Nick, Bruno
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 10/11
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: Nick
[Nathalie] can someone reply to the emails? I won’t make it tomorrow
next Tuesday general: Nick
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: maybe Vas
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
co-work on CSA/CSX [vas and nick]
add to feedback log thing what daniel said:
An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.
share notes from FOSC meeting with Karrot team [Nathalie]
4. Discussion points
CSA talk [E]
vas has created a framework in which to discuss it, and grounds the topic, within platform capitalism, CSA, CSX, and commons peer-production
superficial/initial parallel between CSA → CSS (community supported software)
how to pin it down, make it simple, so we can initiate discussion
is one thing that’s discussed in current paper, not main focus
Nick has been thinking a lot about sustainability of open source as a model
some uncertainty how hybrid remote works
Nathalie’s contribution to Karrot [E]
two parts
recently linked an article about consent and membership in the karrot forum, Ted talking about leaving a circle is very unilateral, but could be a proposal, to think about the needs of the organisation (to see what responsibilities people have)
periodically thinking about leaving, putting karrot aside, for some time, or for good. have several projects, and deprioritize contributions to karrot, so karrot would be first to cut if something else came up
wondering how it’s going, not one reason, but some little things, things that feel uncertain, which makes it easier to let go
sociocracy stuff feels higher priority, looking for some other projects, and if taking another project then need to free up time
history of karrot and personal connection influencing present, which echoes into the present, wondering why it bothers
need to be independent, and a sense of entanglement, and uncertain belonging, moving away from foodsharing somewhat, and still some ties there
wondering about the flow of work and the type of tasks, not so wanting to relive the structural topics, inside the team in karrot being the one looking for more structure, but not so much wanting to think about all these topics in karrot, feels heavier than in other spaces looking from the outside
did enjoy the nlnet flow, designing features, and wondered about getting more into software and maybe coding things. is this the right space for that though, thinking about who is investing time. looking for something where more people are contributing more work, with a bigger team. more focused projects.
could grow time, but question of money, would we all grow our time, not clear. wonder if it’s a tension for Nick too, if he would do more time. don’t feel like stepping up do participate more in karrot, and the topics to engage with are too big to manage with a small time
calls and co-working have a nice atmosphere, so feels nice, so still thinking. karrot days were nice, meeting in august would be nice.
wondering a bit more when off screen
unresolved tension plays some part, although not the main thing
thinking how long I would stay, what would be the process of leaving, or whether something would change. hear the efforts to find comfortable, but without feeling a future there, maybe not fair to accept process to find a place
interested to hear comments and reactions, and hoping for some clarity after hearing us
Vasilis:
two levels, emotional level and practical level
feel sad thinking about Nathalie leaving the project, as it’s worked super nice, really trust her, the energy she brought shifted karrot in a different direction that is more promising than it was before, was chatting with people in the house and the way we run the meetings and the structure she introduced led to more effective meetings, have learned a lot from her perspective, a lot of things brought to the discussions, e.g. discussions around the organic structures, which are embedded in capitalism, etc… blah
emotionally would find ways to motivate her to stay in project as a friend
on the practical level, we do suffer from not enough contributors, so would be an issue, can see sometimes she might feel lost, and uncertain of own contribution, although clearer with phd to work on
seasonal karrot thing, so maybe going through a summer, seasons change, e.g. with nlnet, karrot is still quite foodsaving centric, but heard potential interest in her about engaging in other contexts
Nick:
appreciate sharing it, when leaving a circle having a process around it, pll leaving karrot thorugh the years and almost faded away, dissaperead,slow divorce, appreciate the intentioanlity to make it clearer,
reflecting on relationship therapy stuff, when sb is ready to leave and bring up all the topics to motivate and make things appeall to stay
noticed for sometime what ur contribution could be, find the pathway for ur contribution, wouldl be happy to support this process
sadness of the autumn tries as the winter sets in, seasonal things is sth that I embrace, natural cycles not lines
my main thing woud be doing higher priority than the project’s itself
it is dif for Karrot to meet a more solid infrastructure/stucture of a well-flowing team, in reality Karrot atm is not that, it is frindge/exprimental, it was even more in the past, efforts to bring it in the current economy but this is really hard, if Karrot to be my only financial source I dont think this will happen, but Karrot keeps going, Karrots severly underesourced still makes this project vs other well funded pilots that die off quickly
I d prefer if it was most stable, would like it to bring in enough money, or have enough stuff done and have a more stable team, that is uncertain though, wonder a lot if it is needed as a piece of software, what groups would do? smooth transition? thinking more of the value we offer…same dillemas probs to which we have been encountering
Bruno:
(has kid on lap, and distractions around)
discussion brings up a lot of thoughts
wondering what things I enjoy, and don’t enjoy, or don’t meet my needs, etc. what keeps me going
regarding Nathalies exploration, thinking about leaving, agree with what’s being said, really sad, want to try and understand the reasons, kind of clear to me, but not fully
tend to try and say, nono stay! but at the end up to you, like that open up the possiblity of exploring, to actually see if there is something deeply embedded in karrot culture that doesn’t fit, or maybe we can do something about it
maybe two things, needs-related, financial aspect etc. but also think about it in terms of enjoyment, which things have been enjoyable, maybe they’re missing now, or still there? how to bring some more focus on those aspects, more intentional
karrot comes in waves, the enjoyment. sometimes can be really enthusiastic, like to put time on it. sometimes don’t have much time, going with the flow, without head in it so much, so stay in hiberation, come to meetings but not much more. could also take a pause from it and return at a later point.
we’re at quite unfocused moment for karrot now, maybe we have a need/urge to focus to go into a new period (of seasonability), which might come with more structure in the work we do, sometimes wondering what to do, what are we focusing on
if we got another financing from nlnet it would bring us more structure, even if it doesn’t happen would be nice to bring more structure and intentionality, defining how much time we’d like to dedicate, set some self-goals, and find how to work to achieve it
personally, always have the tension of unstructured and structured way, being very adapable and flexible to life, so can take a step back when I need it, and dive deep when I feel like it, being mindful of others and what they expect of me, like that
usually struggle with the tension, as it’s a bit unclear and have to pose the question, which space are people in
nice to have discussion now, an opportunity to try and sync that, esp. as Nathalie is feeling out of sync, is there a way to sync it so it would work, maybe others would move into another season of the project, on the long term though perhaps it’s not suitable on the longer term, unstructure/unstructure, sync/de-sync is not always suitable for many people during certain times, or personalities, which is proabably why many people would not join Karrot
as a conclusion, really appreciate that you bring it up, before leaving, like to believe there is some chance to maybe make it work, can also accept if it doesn’t work for you, like to see it as something to explore, is it something we cannot really provide, it’s a nice conscious choice to go onto other stuff, maybe it’s something we could provide, and maybe can find sources of enjoyment still to continue, and find enthusiasm again to be able to dedicate time to it
like to talk openly about it
Nathalie:
thank you everyone for taking the time, and in depth answers
after finishing, and the round started, feeling sadness, then conversation shifted, feel less sad again, more in a constructive space, which is nice
two things stood out
emotional side is a big one, how karrot is embedded in different connections and people, and what are my connections with those, so one way would be try and take the emotional side out, could be a break? topic is a lot from an emotional side in this project in particular
karrot is not quite a solid infrastructure, and how life is flowing right now struggling with some solidness, and being in a project without that, is difficult, so if rest of life was more solid might be different
some constructive thoughts, leaving, or less governance meetings, or less involved in the bigger discussions, having a more concrete role in specific things, e.g. only at co-working, advertising more support of the software, so not being in the general circle, something more specific, abstract vs concrete topics
would like to take the conversation and let it ripen/sit a bit
find to close the topic for now, and happy to continue, still around for now, wouldn’t increase contribution though
Vasilis:
one thing to add, Nick said karrot is project in fringes, very true, don’t have to be delusional, unless we’re lucky or take steps it’ll stay there, but it’s on our hands to try and make it work somehow, to become more stable and create this more rigid/solid/stable infrastructure, won’t go into more now
Nick:
put visioning in a seperate thing to co-working, genereal and make a more clear vision strategy e
Bruno:
we’re creating this together, feels like there is quite some room for changing/adapating/improving, happy you’re stickinng around for a while at least top tip: find the sources of joy and focus on that
unclear how the karrot project interacts with this festival, initially we had the workshop idea, but not talked about so much now
workshop offer was listed there, a sociocracy thing for foodsaving groups, so Nathalie agreed to giving a sociocracy workshop
there is a bit of a division in the registration process between presenters and participants, they pay and can cover some travel costs
seems nice to go there, has been on mind for a while
maybe worth talking to Daniel again about workshop space, not clear how full they are, there is an “open space” still
seems in karrot it switched from giving a workshop to just coming, wouldn’t push for giving a karrot presentation outside the open space
registration is open until june 15th so register now
Vasilis:
came across some posters about it, checked on the map, will be 3h on a train away unless something bad happens will try and be there, Nathalie being there makes it more motivating
regards to doing something with karrot team, today would say don’t have energy for it now, but might eventually come, but can’t take the lead, would be happy to go there and meet with people, have a chat, and have a nice weekend (if it is a weekend
Nick:
Was more motivated when I checked the buses, a bit of a long journey but not too crazy, need to make a decision before that time, right in the boat building time, good or bad, sort of inclided to plan it in and book it, as participant, could imagine try and make and informal info point, show ppl Karrot, print out a thing, dunno if that would fit in. And then closer to the time I can bail but if booked already more secure, travel costs, 30 euros attend, use some Karrot money to do that?
Bruno:
yes, was looking at buses and bus fares, and ways to do it, feel like if realistic, quite unlikely to be able to make it, but could be quite a fun trip if could take frans with me, I think it said they had some child care, will continue to investigate to see if it’s feasible
regarding karrot’s participation, should definately do something there if anyone is going, just to present and say we exist, can be useful to a lot of groups, would be a shame to lose this opportunity
Nathalie:
quite highly funded thing, so doesn’t have moneyfree vibe from early yunity days, they do say they have solidarity participation in the travel costs, strategy would be to try and apply for receiving that, as it says they can provide for travel costs
ok using karrot money, costs shouldn’t come from peoples personal accounts
things miss the context, e.g. “start membership review process”, hard to understand context and translate well
could we have auto translation? and a native speaker can edit it?
Bruno:
also struggled with lack of context, even being familiar with karrot
not clear where the particular string is placed
ideal scenario would be to have a screenshot
Vasilis:
doing greek, did 500 lines, then had a call with Bruno, to give help with tool, and that was very helpful
maybe a manual, and video tutorial, could help
Nathalie:
from feedback, did look at it, have a question, do I just add the translation then it’s done, or does it need approval? or if you see something in the software, how to find out where it is to improve it? what standard are we aiming for? not super trained in translations, feels like fine with “good enough”
general sense is if we want to engage with it and bring languages to a higher percentage, it would need someone, or a team to take care of it, something good to know, could be a nice task
Bruno:
if people contact us, or there is an issue, should give them support, would be up for helping out, have a walk through, or figuring out a context for the translations, would be a good start for people that want to translate
no review process currently, transifex has some features for reviewing, currently you can just type anything and at some point it would get live
would be nice to have, German, Swedish, … clearer defined sense of ownership, team/circle/etc.
German is only at 85%, and we don’t have professionals, so feel free to step up
translation for brazilian portgugues has lots of weird things, so would like to update it if there is time
Nick:
lot of tech stuff on how it works, share more in operational detail, two types of translators: karrot users and random internet ppl and they dont know anything about it, esperanto 100%, feautures to talk with translators, familiarising with the tool would be useful
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (8) ← increment each time it gets moved down
add to feedback log thing what daniel said:
An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.
Date: 2023-06-13 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator:
Minutes: All
Participants: Nick, Bruno
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 45mins from now
information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Vas, Bruno
next Tuesday general:
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!:
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (8) ← increment each time it gets moved down
add to feedback log thing what daniel said:
An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.
send over basis for CSA talk [Vas]
4. Discussion points
vite-based karrot frontend [R/E]
showed how it’s faster to yarn dev, slower to load initial page, faster to see changes
would be nice if other people that do code could try it out to see how it feels, before I commit to fully integrating it
would need a bunch more work to switch, tests, production, etc…
Bruno will try it out, maybe in co-working tomorrow, with instructions on how to do so
funding, now that we didn’t get nlnet [E]
boo
a million reasons why it could have been, we asked for some feedback, guess they are overloaded
how to we move forward?
Bruno:
beg for money
short term, keep looking for funding
longer term, building up some kind of CSX model, community-supported
Nick:
same, but not motivated to do another application
disrupt.org? it’d be worth writing an e-mail, through outlandish (sent!)
find rich ppl to give us some money, existing connections, random
next Wednesday co-working: Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie
next Tuesday general: yes
Nathalie on vacation July 4
pick facilitator for next week: Vasilis
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (10) ← increment each time it gets moved down
add to feedback log thing what daniel said:
An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.
post to read databse change proposal again [Nathalie]
add to feedback log thing what daniel said:
An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.
sofa and opensociocracy? sofa fosc circle connected to opensociocracy, not clear where that connection goes
fascinating how ideas can be separated by the social practise of them, big factor in reality is actual connections, we try and separated things, but personal connection important, need solid social connections
vision, strategy, new funding model, open collective, etc… [E]
funding fatigue, money from users/groups makes sense
should tie it into strategy
assume people are into that, but let’s check!
vibe has been waiting for funding…
clearer need for nick to make it financially viable, and for projects
nathalie also expressed need for more structured work
sense that we need a sense of direction from here, together
establishing pace of work and dedication
personally (bruno), would be nice to have another wave upwards, was hoping for it with nlnet application, but maybe not nercessary… depends on ability of people to dedicate time, and what funding means for that
strategy! would like to get things done now, a lot of potentials for fixing, maybe some new features, would need a funding model, would like to support others who need money, esp. nick, probably others too
could set a goal… e.g. do the opencollective thing, investigate more funding, work out different scenarios with or without funding…
happy to find more focus, and be supportive, although personally haven’t had so much karrot time lately
need to see if we align
Nick:
form the strategy, get clear on the money needs
what should work on next after the attachments? figure that out connected to a strategy
how do we make the strategy more tangible, in our practices. An agreement doc on Karrot? anyone motivated to work on it?
Vas:
key point is need to come up with a strategy, and test a model that’ll be sustainable for karrot, financially and ethically
funding fatigue experienced throughout life personally, not long term sustainable
have been thoughts in detail, but not the right time for that
on the same page as who is funding? in favour of it being funded by those directly using karrot
question remains how to do it, so far majority of groups don’t have other funding, so tricky there
Nathalie:
also like the idea of being funded by the users
although there are state funding schemes, can feel unfair to ask the people who work to get money to spend their money to spend other things, gets wierd thinking where money comes from… when there is big money pools somewhere
applying for funding that easy and puts us in a certain box
funded by the people!
interested in opencollective, still have open question about this “collective” term
one thing they solve is not having a legal entity, so they have fiscal hosts
to truly be a collective, what about our domain, who owns things, would be nice to have a collective solution for this, e.g. contact form for site, data privacy, etc. legalising karrot topic… how much does a fiscal host help? or would we need other legal forms?
commons theory is something that fits well with the group, and with karrot, would like to see a direction more clearly speak of it, karrot has had the food focus, then defoodification, but no clear focus to replace it, maybe commons is that focus… to be clearer who we are targetting… as maybe de-foodifcation lost the focus
Bruno:
financial models, totally in favour of long term finance by the people, doesn’t need to be users only
how do we make that viable long term, have to have time frames in mind, can’t achieve financial sustainability if we just go out to the groups now saying “we need money”, could be lucky, but not so much money willingness available already with this approach, would need a different scale to find those resources, maybe more groups, more people, bigger outreach, … becoming more commons-based project
still space for funding, esp. short/mid term, but not try to lose the vision of “we don’t need those fucking funding applications”, we can do this by ourselves! independently, collectively, democratically…
pragmatic approach, how can we make that happen
could jot things down on a document, maybe for next co-working? could do it together? during co-working or meeting? another pad, 5-10 minutes to write something down, separately? then bring together at the end… doesn’t need to take a lot of time, workshop format… half an hour… as quite aligned already in thoughts and values
could do something tomorrow?
also supporting idea of rethinking how we profile ourselves, “what is it for” now, had this general thing of “community organising”, if we connect more into theory and vocabulary, could go deeper into it, broaden our connections too, needs some investigating
Nick:
also felt we got lost after de-foodification, more towards commons
how much do the groups identify with commons?
funding by the people does not mean users only, also random people on the internet donating a couple of EUR/month would meet our needs because we have low costs
thing in August, a good place to start thinking together about strategy
also likes the idea of working on a document but not much time
Vas:
how much do the groups identify with the commons… we should investigate, so we don’t make something super exclusive, we already saw how some features on karrot don’t really fit the needs of the groups
not saying we shouldn’t pitch it towards commons, but is a spectrum, have to understand groups already use karrot for some specific tasks only, so not all encompassing project for them to everything within
if we position karrot within commons, we think of 3 basis, resources, rules, and community, and start building it in that direction, now, it does seem very much that
funding model, wasn’t thinking it could be other outside people, could be interesting, could also be organisations talking about commons, peer-to-peer advocating about technology, some of them are sustainable organisations, how about going door to door, you chat, we build we don’t have money, you have it. how about donate, £50/month? groups, users, random people, institutions, research groups. SPONSORS!!!
up tomorrow in co-working to start writing some things down, then come back and check and discuss
even within food waste stuff, a lot of orgs chatting about food waste policy and role of technologies, have to examine what a sponsor, can be a patron, can lose agency… who are we accountable to
hybrid/flexible model, maybe not so easy now going to small groups telling them we need money, some of them might be yes, reward it, but maybe cannot, can write this stuff on a paper
not super novel, but talk about being mission driven and flexible rate, maybe free
thinking about process, would be good to gain feedback before making the final decision, in a structured way, could work on something, have a draft agreement, and we’d like to get money and how much would feel sustainable, agree expenses are not extremely high, so could work, wondering whether to address individuals or groups, thought to address groups first, and individuals could be additional, draft, numbers, calculations, and feedback channel
if there is money involved, and we say it’s still possible to use it without money, would it feel it’s not really for free, need a good frame to make clear they are really welcome to use it without contributing, but they can…
so, gather feedback and see if it feels like it’s a huge change, and feel stressed about it, … so to avoid it being a Big Announcement
follow up with recent feedback (Kranti, Daniel)
call poll fatigue
maybe one person just schedule something, and announce it for others, to avoid poll cycle
bruno up to do it
big groups is the thing
tech update [R]
attachments → review \o/
vite… ongoing
hanging application in karrot team
was hanging about for 2 months
declined without message
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
tricky part with difference between composition API and options API
could either get support, or leave it for Nick to complete
probably would take too long to figure it out alone, as have to go back to some basics
could have it bruno working, me watching/supporting, or me working and bruno shadowing, or me just doing it
best one is bruno to watch me code on it, and learn a bit
Nick would like to wait to get vite branch merged, as it’s nicer to work with…
next thing up?
how to choose what to work on next?
bruno has some ideas!
add a “Next up” column to the board…
add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group
@-mention bell notification doesn’t bring you to the message
small fix would be for if the notification doesn’t even bring you to the right conversation
confirmed: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
navigating to the actual message needs bigger changes
backend: different pagination to fetch “around” a particular messgae/date and have 2 ended pagination
frontend: a 2 ended infinite scroll component (quasar is only 1 directional)
autonomous flow state is sometimes very useful for doing stuff, and hard to put into a process
user → product → development flow… user observation is not enough on it’s own often, needs to be put in wider context of the product
the framing was “where would you like Karrot to be in 1/5/10 years?”, then worked on it by themselves
bruno likes the ideas so far
feedback session with Kranti and Daniel [R]
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
let’s talk about it as an agenda item
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
standing topic: check the board! [E]
5. Actions/Outcomes
for co-working tomorrow:
add a “Next up” column to the board…
add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group to board
add to wall: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
bruno will write a 1/5/10 thing: “where would you like karrot to be in 1, 5, and 10 years?”, about half an hour
Nathalie will do the workshop on Sociocracy at FS festival
next meeting:
tomorrow evening (Wednesday): call with Kranti and Daniel
next Wednesday co-working: Nick, maybe Nathalie
next Tuesday general: yes!
pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes
for co-working tomorrow:
add a “Next up” column to the board…
add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group to board
add to board: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
bruno will write a 1/5/10 thing: “where would you like karrot to be in 1, 5, and 10 years?”, about half an hour
4. Discussion points
tech
feedback about vite branch [E]
needs more beta-testing
feedback about attachment niggles [E]
reviewed by Bruno and working
next up? [E/D]
issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group
marking messages read in sidebar thread
delay in accepting applications
a bigger topic?
maybe a separate point to discuss next meeting
how about limiting pickups?
a selection process?
something from the board, make candidates clear, and think of a nomination
so, do a round, nominate, hear reasons, … could change nomination after hearing it
… then another round, then faciliator takes one nomination and checks for consent
… can still object if needed, and go round again
one for more discussion, one for development
make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
let’s talk about it as an agenda item
Vasilis is deciding how long this topic will stay in the agenda
barcamp Luxembourg check-in [R]
Nick and Vas got accepted! \o/
Nick not totally confirmed, still pending some boat stuff
general feedback about 3 categories, looks a bit like “incorporating features for improving community organising” as an overarching umbrella title, perhaps good for the proposal
we do have quite a lot of input and intel from the groups already to play around with these categories of features
do have more comments… about the process…
Bruno:
I like. in terms of the work we want to do, makes a lot of sense
wonder whether it will be something nlnet will see as relevant and worthy as funding, still a bit dubious, as going by the feedback they gave, they seem more focused on the tech itself, be new, and about federation, etc. from the call, it could be focused on privacy, and if we try to connect the work and frame in the way the call asks, could do it a bit differently: how can users of a software application generate heathly communities, as opposed to the big tech approach, problems of governance and moderation, one possible way to frame it. show a different way to do it, and that is the innovative aspect.
however we send it in, feels worth a shot
Nathalie:
wondering if in the right mindset for thinking about it
agree with Vas about the topic framing
was expecting to see something with activitypub still, so surprised, not sad, the chosen topics are well aligned with what we’ve done previously, and with what the groups need, and that we know quite a lot about the topics
having the nlnet funding might give us the magic motivation to progress the features
seems focused and coherent
open question, as bruno says, about how aligned it is with what nlnet are asking for
Nick:
feels like it makes sense, a continuation of our energy and what we’ve done so far
originally wrote about Activitypub but then saw the number of public activities and saw there was not much. Did not feel justifiable
found the three topics on the board, inside his head and soul
so far they’re written as dev tasks. Anyone wanting to do more on it? Speak now or shut up forever
Vas:
super happy to proceed with something development-centric, worth discussing if it’s breaking the working together kind of community vibes, as it’s quite nick-centric, I would consent, but worth bringing into the equation, compared to how we’ve been working so far
e.g. working through co-working sessions, design sessions, reporting back, etc…
don’t feel danger, but feel it’s worth bringing it up
for the application, could definitely help out writing the justification, it’s not just things we imagined, but things we have data on, a couple of paragraphs on that
in real implementation of features, not sure if we need much more research, not sure if I have energy to ask the groups, e.g. how would they imagine a poll
Bruno:
don’t see it as being very development/nick-centric, and don’t think it should be, there is a lot we supporting work, and design
looking at the 3, the one that needs less thought or research is the polls, then sanctions we we discussed a lot, although still need a lot of design there, where to initiative them, etc… last would be custom group roles and permission system, a huge area to explore there
could even involve more people, from the community, from the groups, maybe some quick sessions to work on it, see who is interested
going back to more straight forward one… thinking of the polls, could be dynamic work, if nick starts working, will come up with questions, sketches, … a little process that we can all engage in as a team
custom group roles and permission system, could even do a more elaborate design session on it
up for that, interested in the topics, all of them, depends on what others want to do, and how we co-ordinate, nathalie has shown interest for custom roles, big overlap with sociocracy
some async design sessions for them, can see myself involved in the work
Nathalie:
also think there is a lot of room for group feedback processes
as nick is mainly pushing it, how would I approach it, e.g. the sprint patterns. we noticed different sizes of the sprint. community design process. we had done a rather short one, with us gathering ideas, open for feedback, but not waiting for it, still a good framework to progress a feature. particularly in the beginning there is a lot of space to think together, and limitations of what is possible to implement in the code, and later gets narrowed down.
not too worried about it
3 points are like a committment of the things we’d like to focus on and progress
drifted off thinking about my own interested in technology and social things, noticing that I’d like to be more technical, helping groups organised, those parts covered in sociocracy work. wondering what is the role of software? would rather get more involved in the logic of the software, not so much the social parts of it. so wondering about my place. doesn’t mean the application to stop.
Nick:
a lot of support but how to make it tangible, make it into tasks?
a bit of frustration on how to give birth to everything we’ve been thinking about
maybe application is not fully aligned with our way of working, our processes, like pushing now for what to put in the application
could do something with the input given so far, would like to have something tangible but will be a bit explorative
Consent round
Vas: object, open question from nick about who is willing to do what, suggestion would be to keep user research to a minimum, but maybe still as a task, so it’s one of the steps, so gives a balance, prior work we did, e.g. interpretation of data we collected already, so maybe design sessions are between the 4 of us, then nick and tilmann take over and do the development
Bruno: consent, to use that pad as a basis, if I understand it correctly, not as a ready application, but as a basis for how to proceed
Nathalie: wondering if there is an implication for myself, or something I need to commit to, seems like nick, and others are motivated enough, so consent.
Nick: object. wouwoullsd like clearer understanding of what I’m putting in the application about others involvement. looking for support from others to formulate this other non-dev-specific stuff.
Bruno: able to follow up and input
Vas: up for formualting it together
Nathalie: wouldn’t commit to a task, so count me out, might participate in design sessions as they come up
new consent round with mods
Vas: consent
Bruno: consent
Nathalie: consent
Nick: consent
connecting with likeminded initiatives [E]
someone that joined: “WhatsCookin, now doing decentralized trust under cooperation.org, interested in how you guys are doing things”
you all have great time and u feel that you make new connections and deepen some existing ones, energy giving and inspiring (bruno)
connecting with the Karrot team ppl that would be there is a key thing. 3 in the same place is a record. A bit of time for reflections, wanna flow with the conf topics, things look interesting but prefer to flow, place is sourrounded by a forest, enjoying the nature would be nice
doesn’t remember much of the workshops either, so would also like to go with the flow. Just have a chat with people about Karrot. Go into the forest and river (if there’s one)
one thing is to chat with people that do use Karrot. There are two groups there organizing that use Karrot so should be poeple there
some interesting workshops to watch
Nathalie’s on sociocracy
on conflicts
on racism
on dragon dreaming
potentially do something about Karrot on the open space, like a look behind the scenes
CSX explorations [E]
standing topic: check the board! [E]
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
5. Actions/Outcomes
read through notes of call with FOSC (Bruno, Vasilis, all)
karrot team to look at 2nd notes, about dimensions and proposal forming, and bring it to group discussion (All)
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items?
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
wondering what possiblities the platform gives to supporting sustainability
frustrated after 2 years, not wanting to do things with foodsharing, but am again now
lots going on in Siegen, focused on local community
unsatifying though, want bigger visions and bigger leverages for change
this summer to reconnect with foodsharing international, permaculture scene, Fuchsmühle community (Germany) ← thanks!
bigger global/national ideas!
enjoy working and talking with Nick \o/
thrilled that after 8 years it’s still running, very reflective people, really trying to find out how to build up infrastructures for this utopian world
have ideas about sharing and caring, if we don’t pick up trash, make our own software… will lead nowhere
want to see what is possible to weave into academia, vasilis has been writing about CSS (community supported software)
got a new post-growth professor, wants to write a proposal for CSX
intriuged by karrot or think to join? intention to contribute, would like to join again and see how to fit in
would be nice to discuss at some point one of butze’s papers, around digital tools to empower community
how to bring karrot to the stage it’s very user friendly, and low barrier to join
network effect of tools people already use, telegram, etc. hard to surpass this
they have so much money to make it user friendly, hard to achieve that level
if interested to jump in more, could run tests in siegen to see what works/what not
for now, find a way in, and see how it goes, following curiosity, and where something fits, curious about vasilis’ CSS
more exploration of luxembourg [E]
travel costs Luxembourg (Nathalie) [D]
Nathalie expense: 79,25€, paid by academy
also Nathalie got paid for the workshop (300€)
→ I’d like to give something to Karrot, as see it as a karrot trip
could pay some with Karrot money
time to ask for things if needed!
nick’s travel costs are around 150EUR, karrot money? or ask organisers?
Bruno: should definately get refunded, tend to think the party that has more finances should do it, not sure if that’s the organisation or karrot, not sure on the finances of the event, but don’t want discomfort if having to ask around, so good to just go with karrot money
and for Nathalies, nice to offer contribution to Karrot, no obligation though, so feel welcome
Nathalie: not sure if received a form to fill out, can support Nick with form filling out, just needs bill (bus ticket, with price), happy to help. which entity has more money? event has money! definately try and get the 30EUR, could imagine asking for more, quite far, and with open space session, see what they say, and refund rest from karrot money
for myself, can decide
follow ups
foodsharing europe? Karrot and foodsharing.de could be both part of it
used to be foodsaving worldwide, forum & Karrot with different focuses
foodsharing International within foodsharing - what does it do?
Karrot is a software project, could have a relationship
next barcamp
October deadline for Erasmus+ funding, another deadline in March
academic work
Philip and Vas and other people to collaborate
round of reflections/thoughts/comments
Bruno:
quite excited about idea of foodsharing europe
also see it as a separate thing from karrot and previous foodsaving worldwide, foodsaving international in foodsharing.de
more like a federation/community, find it’s own governance structure, governing body?
get a bunch of people together with experiences from diferent contexts, including me excited to contribute, getting people together from different countries, where could we go, working together, how to act together on a european level to spread/consolidate foodsharing, different iterations, with a basis of what we are doing in europe
sounds like a really nice idea
regarding luxembourg/barcamp thing, heard a lot from Nick already, curious to hear how to was from butze/nathalie, was it fun! what was exciting?
another thing Nick mentioned, when talking about tech circle, also had mentioned a few people that might be interested in development work for karrot, maybe start having some dev sessions could be a space to invite curious devs to join
Nathalie:
had a good time at the barcamp! outstanding point was haven’t been in a “networking mode” for a long time, only having online meetings, which can be such an effort, networking side opened up a bit, met a lot of people, combined with knowing a lot of foodsharing people, lots of chats about that
finding my place holding a sociocracy workshop in person, want to do some reflections/improvements, a lot of interest in sociocracy, made me happy, very nice!
mostly in connecting mode, still curious, particularly about luxembourg, interested in karrot and sociocracy, review his notes about maybe switching to foodsharing, want to engage more, want to find out which features would help them to stay
how to combine sociocracy and karrot, sometimes not a perfect fit, how to make karrot a tool that a sociocractic group can use, through the lens of foodsharing luxembourg
didn’t join the visioning sessions
academic work is quite interesting, e.g. how CSX is getting in there, was enthusiastic on reading about it, feels like Vas is very skilled there, with uni background, not sure on my entrypoint, but interested to read more and read more papers from butze and vas, a big sympathy to academic work
foodsharing europe, sounds nice, something karrot team is not driving, but can be part of, e.g. sending a delegate to it, rather than being the new focus of karrot
a bit fuzzy though, some concerns about super bodies and how they would work, enjoy the seed though, and connection with luxembourg and belgium, makes more sense to work with foodsharing groups and being international rather than foodsharing.de driving it
not sure about thoughts on future barcamps, not sure about the connection and/or funding, we could do with funding, don’t have karrot legal infrastructure to do things ourselve, maybe a chance to do a subproject within it?
was orgianising festival for a couple of years and enjoyed that, so could step into it, not sure what would need to be in place to get involved, unclear right now
enjoyed the barcamp very much, beautiful scenary! was reminded of yunity events of highly motivated people coming together, everyone trying to be fully present and collaborate, exchange, network, very much enjoy this!
coming back to siegen, gives a nice reflection point, have been at a humus festival, foodsharing, repair cafe, workshop workshop, free shop, etc… 40 people everybody contributing, … but it’s ultimately just an event that people come to, and not so much about the daily life of people
that’s the tension, also for foodsharing international event, is nice to go meet nice people, talk, dream… but how to bring it into daily life
8 years ago thought we could do it in half a year, but know wiser and know it takes time, but we are 8 years wiser, and potential, e.g. foodsharing europe, to bring together local acting and global/europe thinking, one-issue based community
very nice informal chats, very nice workshops, nice food
if events like this would occur more often would have really good and lasting networking events… knowing how hard it is to organise and get funding, etc… would be nice that those that showed intention and effort to organise join forces
Nick:
more interconnected things
in dragon dreaming: dreaming, planning, doing, celebrating
sometimes it’s nice to start with the celebrating, that’s what the barcamp was
now comes the dreaming
interested not about foodsharing but through foodsharing, learned about self-organization and community building
how to unleash potential from the foodsharing groups?
tangible next steps?
Bruno:
follow up with Daniel, or anyone else that was keen on foodsharing europe emergence
Nathalie:
look into Luxembourg situation more closely, re: foodsharing and sociocracy
nice to stay in touch with Bianca, would also be informed about potential next funding steps to jump on funding train
Butze:
was writing an email to Stefan, to see if he’s interested to look into proposal to build up a project for foodsharing as a catalyst for further sustainable food practises (gardening, cooking, etc), didn’t have his email, so sent it to international email address of barcamp would be glad to have it
ask nathalie if she wants to give sociocracy workshop in sigen for foodsharing cafe group
ask Daniel if he can faciliate dragon dreaming with core people in Siegen
thinking to ask foodsharing akadaamidemidemieie, funding for foodsharing cities partnerships, connecting with a foodsharing group in the south of Berlin
Nick:
follow-up call with Daniel, invite to general Karrot call
Bianca getting ideas for funding oppertunities for Karrot
new group starting in Belgium
write something in pad, re-read email from Bianca
chatting more with Ka (who did racism workshop)
server update [RD]
SSD upgrade, 59EUR per disk (2, so 120EUR)
request to authorize budget
Bruno: yay, consent!
Nathalie: is it one time cost? yes. confirm with tilmann. consent!
Nick: consent!
FOSC explore dimensions and proposals of team [E]
not a lot of time now, but can also continue next week in the meeting
previously formed an ad-hoc group for brainstorming with the 2 karrot people (nick, nathalie), and 2 SoFA people (john, jane)
exploration in sociocracy can be very wide, so instead of jumping into proposals directly, explore the dimensions of it
Nathalie to faciliate a dimension exploring section
Dimensions of the proposal (“what about…?”):
Who is currently on the team?
How is membership recorded?
How do we visualize/show this team?
Different ways you want to understand membership on the Karrot project?(forms of membership, levels of involvement)
How does membership relate to the whole governance structure for Karrot?
What are the powers of membership?
What qualities do you want to have for members?
How does someone become a member?
How do you end your membership/stop being a member?
What would it (the ‘team’) be called?
Reactions
What is out of scope of membership? E.g. Collaboration?
What would it (the ‘team’) be called? - added
good list of dimensions
keeping in mind ideas what the whole governance structure for Karrot could be, what other kind of rights and commitments in relation to Karrot, connected to CSS
talk about Karrot: for her it’s easier to start there but then it becomes harder when the group grows and becomes more complex
Erasmus funding… One in march, perhaps Karrot could participate
Bianca might join a Karrot meeting. Daniel too at some point in the future
Brings up some ideas about federation
we’re all fine with Nick having a one-on-one talk, but there’s also interest in having a group conversation too at some point
Nathalie:
a bit overwhelmed with new structures
unsure how sociocracy would adapt to this context (at least it’s a big project)
nice to keep connection with Bianca
more interested in concrete next event than foodsharing erope idea
Bruno:
idea of foodsharing europe still motivates me, aware of dynamics between people I don’t know
perhaps some new blood can create some new dynamics
size of groups using karrot topic is interesting, would be worth focusing and putting energy there
like federation idea, nice if connected to a real need, if done together with other groups, e.g. see what people in foodsharing.de think, can be useful
Nick:
lots of potential, in person meeting, shared motivation turns into effective organising
lean towards sociocracy, comes up everywhere
potential in dragon dreaming
strcutures in foodsharing seem to be exhausting, karrot as a liberation from that, trying things in a different way
more potential than action at the moment, people feel potential in themselves
playing a part in this
for Nathalie: relief to not handle foodsaving emails any more?
Butze:
crucial: what is the narrative? not only foodsharing europe, story for future vision
very exciting
agrees to many points that where said before
Nathalie:
important to have a good fit for the people in the group, rather than create the idea of the structure then take a long time to fill it
feels less overwhelming starting with a smaller group
not motivated to build something that lacks the people
Summarising next step
keeping the connection with Bianca and Beata, formulate invite for karrot call, and continue conversation
round to summarise impressions and anything to work on before the evening
Nick:
happy to see it come to some answers
in session tonight get someting to consent to in Karrot
good enough - topics can get big
close to being able to define that
Bruno:
reached a point with it having written the draft, cannot go forward without more input
agree with nick about the general feeling with it, getting something good enough for now, and iterative process, can review it further in the future
Butze:
good step for defining who contributes or not, reminds me of our telegram groups for communal projects, there was always the need to get people out of the group who are not contributing, e.g. where you have 40 people in group and only 5 answer a poll
also thinking of formal association we formed in Siegen, principle is people can take part in all initiatives without being a member, seems important to keep in mind
the more you formalise you form an unregistered legal entity, an unregistered Verein in germany
Nathalie:
on formal side, this is more like an FAQ so far Q → A, maybe nice to have a text without the questions, just a statement
how much to have it inside the karrot group (approved role?)
generally a good start and coherent thing
was in our heads before, and matches what we discussed and think
gets more blurry with the wider / other types, relating to CSS? unsure of concept of contributors who are not in governance structure, lots of open questions
happy to focus on the karrot team
nice to send an email to FOSC so they can see it beforehand
Nick:
community page: group on discourse that defines that page, customized page
potentially inside Karrot, could even manually add custom roles
Bruno:
I’m fine with the text as it is to be sent
Butze:
a formalized text, looks like a kind of legal text out of it, clear words and meaning,
offer to help formulate it into a clear legal-style form
Nathalie:
fine as it is, end of explore phase, not seeing it as a ready proposal, but something to take into the meeting
still wonder how much these other types of affiliation will be included or not, something we can chat about later
happy to leave it where it is now, send it to FOSC and continue later this evening
little intro to butze about sociocracy FOSC circle
invitation for Nathalie to write a few sentences about it to share with them
move karrot mastodon account away from fosstodon [ED]
standing topic: check the board! [E]
standing topic: organizational structure [E]
money amounts from september onwards (Nathalie) [D] ← could also do this next time
5. Actions/Outcomes
nick to ask Bianca for guidance on money, if decide to pay from karrot money, has consent to receive travel costs [Nick]
write to Biana with summary of what we said, and next steps invite to call [Nick]
send our karrot membership thing to FOSC [Nathalie]
follow up with butze about sociocracy for all masters students thing [Nathalie]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items?
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
(All)
