Weekly call about Karrot development 2023

Meetings
12

Date: 2023-03-28 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nathalie, Vas, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1:30h
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nathalie, Nick, Vas
      • next nlnet co-working: check later in agenda
      • money review friday: moved into todays agenda, let’s see
      • next Tuesday general:
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • reply fosc e-mail [someone co-working]

4. Discussion points

  • nlnet funding [RED?]
    • Karrot entrust application - HedgeDoc
    • HedgeDoc - Collaborative markdown notes
    • Attachments - HedgeDoc
    • list of tasks to submit as PDF attachment
    • would be nice to get feedback and broader consent
    • clarifying questions & reactions

      • how to assign tasks to people?

      • who is in there? numbers? process? (e.g. who is listed on it)

      • adding tasks as attachment sounds good idea

      • some clarity of which tasks won’t fit that can be worked on now, so not too dependent on this to start working

      • maybe can copy/paste some parts from previous application, e.g. previous projects/organisations section

      • part to write a description of ourselves, wondering how to make sure we get the parts

      • important to fit in things we’d like to work on, not just a list of things we can work on, so look at personal motivation

      • last time on NLnet put all the milestones, really vague on money related to tasks, how you gonna use money incluiding rates, a bit tighter, i want that myself (Nick), that is sth I am consious, to work on get consent and explore

      • my sense to have it that ppl put tasks willing to be responsible for, there might be delays…put things ppl are wiling to work on and formulate themselves, was pushing tilman on that as well.

      • came up with the idea of handling the rate:

        • a rate we will be willing to work on that 15/20/25?
        • chargable rate x2, x1,5
        • decide how much allocate to the stuff
        • estimate tasks
        • we neeed to make a number
        • add ppl on the application
        • bump Nick over tax (nick) given we dont have a karrot bank. accoount
        • internal would what u get, other part is the karrot fund

      • round Q & R

      • Nathalie: a good starting point, about the rates, I m putting my internal rate >15euros, 20 - 25. Adress the bank account thing. Karrot bank account? → Legalizing topic.

      • Bruno: like the proposal of the two rates, also started thinking about needs about formalizing things a little more, self-employed or karrot-as-employer, exploring that a bit now, goes into organisational structure stuff, have to interact with bureaucracy, connected with bank/money stuff, etc. legal entities, … first reaction to tasks: “don’t think I can do much here”, seems more code related… but did see more design/community engagement stuff, hard to estimate things, will try to estimate average weekly contribution time, and sense of tasks, fine with rate idea, wish to end up receiving more than current amount, seems that this plan will go there

      • Vasilis: ok with the rates we suggested, don’t know about market rate, regarding bank accounts, if we do need it then need legal status, opens up new discussion, uk, elsewhere?, could also open up opportunities for other funding that needs legal status, so would like to work towards that direction, need to submit rate, do we need to budgeting? personal reaction: depends when/if we start, could spend sometimes like 2 days/week, depends on others capacity/motivations too, quite a few tasks to do, esp. research and engagement with communities, and can foresee collaboration with Nathalie/Bruno there, like to work with other people

      • Nick: relieved that ppl are ok ish with the money idea on rates, to have more foormalisedd structure there. we can get more real on what we need in our life. bring some of the needs up.

      • rate quite like to decided it today. it is asked for. make it concrete. Would propose 20 as internal rate.

      • 3 rates: low rate 15,mid 20-25, high 30-40. Nathalie had similar thooughts, 21.50€ was the magic number,20 is quite a good number, make a proposal 20, 1.5x20 =30 for the application, 2/3 going to the person, 1/3 distributed Karrot fund

      • one thing that could be set up is an open collective account, maybe we could set up, there are some fees, maybe its worth it

      • we need to do budgeting, how to estimate hours on a task its hard, we just have to do the best on that

      • consent round?

        • rate of 20, 1.5x20 =30 for the application, 2/3 going to the person, 1/3 distributed Karrot fund
          • Nat: wonder if its in my tolerance rate? why not 22?
          • Bruno: consent, we could raise it a little bit, 21,5/22 or we just leave it as it is, at the end, you count with ur own rate, internal rating? calculate the total
          • Vas: +1 Bruno
          • Nick: would like the same for eveybody, maybe we havent got time to work the system, flat rate is a starting point of equality, start with the same rate this time. Re-make proposal 22,33 rate. Uncertainty on NLnet on market rates.
        • rate of 22€, 1.5x22 =33€ for the application, 2/3 going to the person, 1/3 distributed Karrot fund
          • Nat: Consent
          • Bruno: Consent
          • Vasilis: Consent
          • Nick: Consent
        • comment: stress that this is a self-employment rate
    • how to get the task list in shape, so people have things they feel comfortable with
      • Nathalie: looking at tasks and availability, won’t take on many, maybe one, happy for others to take on more, esp. coding ones, fine for imbalance of numbers within the team, if someone has motivation, great! coherent documentation one, could be nice, if it fits… could bring to co-working and get help to frame it, topics/pages/link to forums/videos, info about how the features work in details, have been thinking on this for a while, might be only thing to work on. also general feedback: really impressed by whole process, read through the tasks, sitting and nodding :slight_smile: surprised by ActivityPub focus, didn’t see karrot in federated space before… not so into design things right now, e.g. the roles stuff. something to constantly work on would feel nice.
      • Bruno: leaves in anger
      • Vasilis: we mentioned the manual thing before, but didn’t include it, … fits with general themes
      • Nick: surfacing motivations and mush things in the framing, not bad if a milestne doesnt 100% fit in. On the documentation, I would support that, one thing i conceived of that. Coding and not coding way.
    • roles stuff?
      • Nathalie: feeling space for new things smaller, feels it takes energy, could be fine anyway, feels like a pre-existing idea, not sure how much we’ll shake this anyway, if others work on it, and there’s moments for feedback
      • Vas: roles very important, can see collaborating with bruno and nathalie
      • Nathalie: willingness to really listen to groups too small for this feature, have ideas but feels a stretch to work them in, can see listening to group needs would work, and maybe merge in
        • feels more able to be self-directed to do the documentation part
        • might re-think participation in roles stuff
    • what now, until submission?
      • Nathalie:
        • work on task list, assign people, time/money correlation, double check the names where people feel responsible and we need from those people
        • then writing the other parts of the application that Nick/Vas took on
        • CSX part, might talk more in co-working, less clear, bigger topics would be good to have more focus and time, but personally have less time and not wanting to expand it, will think more about it
      • Vasilis:
        • looking at application itself, abstract needs a couple of edits, but mostly OK
          • past engagements with similar projects, to support why we’re capable, needs the involvement of all of us, 2 lines per person (short tailor made CV)
          • explain what the budget would be for, would like support of someone else on that
          • significant technical challenges, also need support on
          • can take the lead on historic efforts, and engagement ecosystem
          • can engage on the 4 sections, and have good draft by end of co-working tomorrow
        • bigger question we didn’t discuss, how much money we ask for, needs some monetizing of the tasks, or the reverse way
        • have first good version by tomorrow? then maybe another co-working on Friday, or maybe even Thursday and Friday, can fix schedule to focus on that
      • Nick:
        • responsible for explaining budget
        • task/budget allocation in a spreadsheet
        • get a total amount
        • 5 people to put on /
      • availabilities:
        • Tilman is in! → 10h/ week
        • Vas: 10-16h/week
        • Nick: 2-3 days/week
        • Nathalie 5h/week
      • another coworking end of this week, finish by fridy 7pm
      • Nick does final submission on saturday morning
  • New Member Introduction
    • Ashley, and I’m currently a college student looking to get more experience in web development
    • 5/6/7 pm UTC would work
    • student from USA, maybe 2
    • could have an evening call
    • would like feedback on how we move on, as they are looking to hear back from us
    • reactions
      • Nathalie: wasn’t thinking so much initially as “college student” thing, but more in new contributor, onboarding frame of mind, like as we do with groups that want to use karrot, could see how connection goes, feel a bit obliged to reply and make call happen, could enjoy the call, framing is unclear now
      • Vasilis: wondering where they came across Karrot? remember it was in a list of projects somewhere, maybe there, definately don’t have energy for a call with student at the minute, great if you can take it on, maybe it’s for their dissertation or thing for uni, maybe have something quite specific so they can choose
      • Nick: unmotivated to put a lot of energy in, in the past: full of enthusiams at the beginning, a lot of help needed, becoming an (unpaid) coding tutor, when close to deadline: rush something that satisfies uni, not very useful to Karrot or the groups in the end, just trying to be clear about situation, maybe a better project that has more funding and that is part of their job to do funding, not a lot of time either, not very clear what they want. Find something they can work on themseves. Can’t think of any tasks at the moment. Probably the only person that could support them (technically)
    • want to support students
    • unclear exactly how to proceed
    • could bring to co-working
    • Nick offers to write definitive no

Next time:

  • money review: Review the amounts of how much money we receive [E]
  • standing point: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • reply fosc e-mail [someone co-working]
  • continue to work on nlnet application [all]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
13

Now I saw it. :laughing: I guess you could almost say that

14

Haha, I meant to only put that in for a quick hit joke and take it out again :laughing:

15

Date: 2023-04-04 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes:
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 45 min
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nathalie will do less Karrot things for the coming 2 weeks, so not joining weekly meeting
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Yes!
      • next Tuesday general: yes
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • reply fosc e-mail [someone co-working]
  • continue to work on nlnet application [all]

4. Discussion points

  • new group in Bath [R]
    • transition bath group facilitated ‘eco’ meeting last year
    • one outcome was a whatsapp group → reached limitation
    • someone proposed Karrot
    • recommended from bioregion members
    • set up now!
    • like a ‘group of groups’
    • setting up another instance? bath.community maaaybee
    • comment: another group in Göteborg also lookig into Karrot
  • report nlnet funding [R]
    • it was fun!
    • Vas very committed
    • Vas and Nick went throught the final bits on saturday, send it away and celebrate
    • feeling optimistic
    • having a little break now after the sprint
    • thank you!
    • applied for 42.000€
  • money review: Review the amounts of how much money we receive [E]
    • Nathalie’s been receiving 400E/months and feel like committed contributor. But now feeling more like occasional since won’t have much time and will go down a bit: 150-200
    • Nick wants to crank it up! We’re in a state of transition between different models, waiting for funding, different personal needs, etc. There’s also the upcoming review of our whole money agreement. Without calculations feels like 400-500
    • Bruno, fine at this level, not had much time to reflect on how much time, past and future. trying to keep it at average level, not done so much in last couple of weeks, ups and downs. fine with current amount if others are fine too. 200. need for formalize evidence of income for state in the future, and would be useful to receive a higher amount, even if a 3/6 month period to receive a much higher amount.
    • Vas: absent, probably partying, previous 230€
    • 2 months term, Nathalie: 200€ Nick: 500€ Bruno: 200€ Vas: 230€ = 1130€ → consent
    • also check-in with Vas next time and give chance to review
    • current balance: 16.154,98 EUR
  • standing point: organizational structure [E]
    • quick round no discussion
    • Nick: topic contained a lot in the funding. If we don’t get funding we can do a scaled down version.
    • Nathalie: CSX thing is quite big, but we could focus still on the question of what we do with the smaller group here, not necessarily connected to funding. What to do in relation to FOSC/SOFA (organisational learners?).
    • Bruno: agrees that things are related to funding, still nice to do something regardless, identifying needs, personal and project related, where do we need more clarity? where could we benefit from organisational clarity? e.g. what is the Karrot team, levels of contribution, relationship to establish with contributors, what are terms and condistions to contribute, not only money-wise, how do we decide on what to work on (features, bugs), involvement and engagement of Karrot users

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • put funding application on forum [Nick]
    • some public part
    • some in private thread

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
16

Date: 2023-04-11 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Vasilis, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h from now (1.5h total)
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • vas got some uni money to allow travel to sweden and/or luxembourg
        • time to plan!
        • ideally we can plan it so everyone attends
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Vas, Bruno
      • next Tuesday general: yup…
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!:

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • put funding application on forum [Nick]
    • some public part
    • some in private thread

4. Discussion points

  • money review vas [ED]
  • started karrot dev [RE]
    • looking for best small coding tasks
    • fixing @-mention notifications
    • fixing square images would be great one!
    • opens up the question of our workflow
      • maybe specific bugs put it directly in github?
      • not so sure for small improvements
      • community forum has a role
      • community forum allows more interaction around an improvement
      • … but also don’t want to overwhelm people with small details
      • bug feels quite straightforward, something not working the way it’s supposed to work, just need to fix that
      • both small tweaks and bigger topics can be interesting to people
      • nice to have a workflow that reflects these three levels of dreaming, conceptualizing and getting things done
      • kanban board for discourse → Kanban Board - theme-component - Discourse Meta
      • we should think about the different Github tags and their definitions
  • nlnet acknowledgment [R]
    • general email
    • two rounds
    • first round takes about 7 weeks, then they let us know
  • hacktion camp CSX session [E]
  • proposal for kicking people out by modifying the database [ED]
    • Proposal for making changes to the database based on user requests in the case of conflicts - HedgeDoc
    • Bruno:
      • not very clear about the governance structure of the group, nathalies proposal is clearer here, we want to know how they make decision, could refine wording about the position to make clearer how the group came to the decision and how they’re in a position to bring that to use
      • like the thing that they tried the feature at least once, although not completely sure, as maybe there could be a situation that it wouldn’t work for?
      • not very clear on the “database admins will act based on this agreement”, based on the karrot team agreement I guess…
      • typo on “the the Karrot” (the Karrot God?), I guess the Karrot Team
      • ask for clarification on what those two lines meant
      • on removed things, maybe these things were too detailed, and more of an internal thing, so good
    • Vas:
      • makes sense to not include the 3-or-more people, 3 is random number, if we did add a number a percentage might make more sense
      • added point about their governance agreement makes sense, prevent hijacking a group by new members contacting us
      • some groups don’t have a governance document though, so might need a bit of back and forth, and some small groups are flat informal organisations
      • judging vs trusting, on evidence… “ideally” is quite open, so allows for the scenario… for a group that doesn’t have clear governance, we would start having to judge the value of the word of an older member vs newer member, karrot team ends up the judge in these scenarios. maybe an extreme case.
      • makes sense to have tried the membership review once
      • database admins can seek advice or escalate… guess the idea someone can just do it if it’s super clear already, otherwise can go into a discussion with the karrot team
      • quite happy to proceed, makes sense
      • however, if we delete the 3-or-more people, one person could come up and make a request, would make sense more to be a percentage, e.g. 20% of members should agree, or provide list of their emails, or something… 20% is random number, but would make sense
    • Nick:
      • also like the show your gov agreement
      • happy with modification
      • tried the membership (I approve that)
      • get rid of the 3 ppl
      • get rid of the time period bit
      • one-time removal +1 keeps it simple
      • didnt fully comprehent the database admin
      • given the actual ppl who are database admin is ok but still it is ok to bring it up to the meeting with the Karrot team to understand what is the case with the membership review features
      • can we delete the whole last section?
      • i think shorter agreements are better
        • principles
        • what u do (requesting)
        • what we do
          -would be ok to have a good enough for now agreement
          -rework the words tomorrow in the meeting?
          -put it for 1year
    • Bruno:
      • start thinking of scenarios, and in-practise cases…
      • and pondering wider thoughts for bigger platforms (BigTech platforms have shit moderation… comply with law, minimise cost, so AI and poorly paid people)
      • how much can we refain from judging role? always cases where the group can’t contain a situation, could escalate to board, or police, or other wider structures. not easy. and we cannot guarantee we cannot make judgements. even if judgement about the processes of the community.
      • just reflections, hopefully don’t have to deal with the extreme cases
      • up for a “safe enough for now…” and work as we progress
      • capacity and complexity at scale… how much can be assigned to the group themselves, 100s of 1000s of active groups? how does it look like in the context of community supported software compared to capitalist organisations, would be really innovative… nothing like that right now, moderating on that scale for non-capitalist orgs
    • Vas:
      • good comments from Bruno
      • any way to refain from having a judging role?
      • makes sense to do things at a human level, not having AI deciding anything
      • for 100s/1000s groups cannot do that model, … but maybe Karrot Team would be bigger
      • if we implemented roles feature and trust for role, maybe we have more “admin” roles that allow people to remove people directly, so they don’t need to ask us to mediate
      • e.g. current case was not asking us for advice, but asking us to do something they have already agreed without their group, more a technical request
      • leads us to discussion as we explore the CSX model
      • in luxembourg they have a conflict team and a wellbeing manager, but could not resolve situation, karrot membership review process doesn’t meet their needs so well, but neither did their community processes
    • Nick:
      • dreaming hat back on. wider society and technology? big tech exploited workers doing modertation from a ‘poor’ country for a rich country.
      • instance administrator in Mastodon, fediverse is currently undergoing a lot of growth and so active topic there…
      • making visible the invisble power of database admins esp for more informal projects
      • its not a desire to be judging, we could rework the revelant sentence though on the text
      • its hard to know what judgement is
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
    • quick round, no discussion
    • we’re all blank on this right now
    • from cybernetics, how much an org can cope with “variety” coming in

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • ongoing planning for Göteborg trip [V]
    • bring up next meeting with Nathalie present
  • upgrade discourse to get sexy sidebar [N]
  • write a summary of our discussion and maybe some thoughts on how to progress on the workflow (Bruno)
  • write a proposal to Daren on CSA/CSX (Vas)
  • poke the hacktion lab people about live streaming the event/session

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
17

Date: 2023-04-25 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nathalie, Vas, Bruno, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h10 from now, on the next hour + 1
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nathalie: evaluating contribution to Karrot
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working:
      • next Tuesday general:
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • ongoing planning for Göteborg trip [V]
    • bring up next meeting with Nathalie present
  • upgrade discourse to get sexy sidebar [N]
  • write a summary of our discussion and maybe some thoughts on how to progress on the workflow (Bruno)
  • write a proposal to Darren on CSA/CSX (Vas)
    • done, he wrote back, next step would be schedule a call (or visit)
  • poke the hacktion lab people about live streaming the event/session
    • yes! should be live streamed via BBB

4. Discussion points

  • tech update [R]
    • dependency upgrades
      • getting stuck, unstuck, repeat… ongoing
    • message images/attachments
      • user facing parts will be non-square images, and ability to attach files to messages
      • work is progressing nicely
      • looking at telegram/whatsapp for inspiration for UI/UX
      • attaching images replying by email? sometimes people try, but it doesn’t work
    • history filter
      • on group and place history pages
  • hacktionlab CSX proposal [E]
  • forum messages
  • discuss board, workflow and how to decide on what work there will be prioritized
    • About the Feedback and ideas category - #4 by bruno
    • idea to have it as a standing topic to look at the board
    • how it relates to wider community and needs
    • sense to bring things forward when there is space available for development, rather than piling up everything
    • lots of things come up that are not in github issues or on the board
    • should we maybe not use Github issues at all? Bugs for example are not always clearly a bug, but maybe requires discussion, a new feature
    • working towards outcome/decision about how the flow can work at the moment, proposal for use of GitHub
  • ongoing planning for Göteborg trip [V]
    • Vas applied for 2 month studentship to Switzerland in June/July, visit some CSAs, then bring this knowledge/discussion into Karrot, and physical project, for ongoing exploration
    • in the meantime… plan to visit Göteborg and Luxembourg…
    • maybe potential to visit Bruno all together :slight_smile:
    • open proposal for May, maybe a bit last minute
    • Vas could go to Göteberg anyway in May, and maybe another later trip
    • … waiting to hear about going to Switzerland or not
    • a round!
      • Nathalie: excited about this, could make something happen, would be nice to see each other, don’t have clear framing, could be more visiting Bruno, or super intense Karrot weekend, or in the middle? May is quite soon… but still waiting for Vas’s reply… [Vas: reply is due this week], not a massive trip, wondering about prices and travel, have some weekends in May… end of May but then middle of June, maybe July… fuzzy…
      • Bruno: happy to welcome everyone to Göteborg, getting to dates… would be good to plan it well, in May there are some days to align with that might be better, would be nice to have some Karrot time together, family visits… some visits to not align with… end of May, beginning of June… co-ordinate with summers/vacations… have to work out a place to stay, can check with friends, etc. potential for a nice little cottage house on an island (Orust) that a friend has…
        • Q: may? beginning/end? [Vas: avoiding end of May, lots of travel, greece, etc. may 10th-20th makes sense, could work well?]
      • Vas: may works regardless of switzerland plans
      • Nick: was going to say all of May is out, but a well planned trip could work mid-may centred around weekend of 20th (weekend before/after are busy)
    • another quick round of what next?
      • Bruno: not much to decide now, go through a bunch of filters to see if it’s happening in may:
        • a) switzerland trip for vas or not [LIES!!! he is up for mid-may regardless]
        • b) nicks availability
        • c) to see availabilities here
        • d) nathalies availabiltiies
        • open, but can’t decide anything right now
        • if not may, then later during summer? could open up other possible locations
      • Nick: my availbility is quite possible mid-may, if we decide very soon, and plan travel and money well, not sure if our momentum will get there, but if things are aligning, can organise solidly and quickly… will not fly
      • Vas: prioritise asking Bruno to see about asking mums and timeframes, e.g. 15-20 may, we don’t need to force Bruno to be with us all day, can then start checking how to get there, can do it regardless of Switzerland, checking newcastle to Göteborg, train/boat/etc, takes ages and expensive… go to dublin, then göteborg cheaper and faster… we can work out where to stay, so don’t burden Bruno with logistics
      • Nathalie: not available 13th/14th may, but would be after, thinking more about weekends, can think within week, need to think about how to work within that time, current plan is to have free days here and there rather than a bunch of it, reality coming back… travelling until 13th may, also beginning of June doing something… need a bit of time to let it sink in, and research, getting more realistic about distance and time, can see how it can happen, maybe stay alone in Sweden a bit, glimmer of an idea! would like to travel, not completely convinced
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
18

Date: 2023-05-02 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: until next hour + 1… 10 UK time
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Bruno, Nathalie
      • next Tuesday general: yup
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!:

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • discuss reply to Darren during co-working [Nick/Vas]
    • been chatting by email
  • progress hacktionlab CSX proposal during co-working [Nick/Vas]
  • unlist karrot from play store [Nick]
  • work on proposal for use of GitHub/forum [Bruno]
    • done
  • reply to forum message [Nathalie]
    • done

4. Discussion points

  • tech update [R]
  • quick report on role feature use in Solikyl [R]
    • reminder to activate it, named …
    • have discussed how to use the role, and changing how they work to include it
    • allowing people to set up activities as fits a given pickup, e.g. easy ones maybe open to everyone
    • need to start giving approved role out
    • can review in a month
    • reminder that the name of the “Approved” role, and the threshold can be configured. Name “Godkänd”
    • roles are:
      • member / “everyone”: everyone in the group always has this
      • newcomer: those that have no additional role beyond member
      • editor
      • approved (or custom named one) if activated
    • see writeup: karrot-resources/2022_Writeup_Roles-feature.pdf at main · karrot-dev/karrot-resources · GitHub
  • proposal for workflow [D]
    • Proposal - HedgeDoc
    • reactions/etc.
      • Nathalie:
        • appreciate shortness, and matches what we talked
        • minor: “Do that with the help of a board” clarify what the “board” is
        • clarify “standing point” each meeting, maybe too much to go through every week, maybe we don’t need a decision each time, maybe takes too much space in weekly meetings, as they are operational parts, so weekly meeting can be more focused on decisions, although if we’re in a routine it could be short, could try it… don’t have to fill it every time… we have 2 standing topics now
        • fine to try it
      • Nick:
        • also like it, short and straight forward
        • clarify which place to add new topic, backlog or new ‘incoming’ category
        • agrees on ‘Kanban board’
        • github issues still for purely technical topics ‘will be reserved for operational technical issues and usage will be minimised’
        • update document - more like a next step, not ongoing thing. Or say ‘keep documents updated’
        • likes standing point: could be short, check if something needs to go on the agenda, not going into every topic deeply, maybe clarify that more
        • big picture: how to prioritize? this proposal is already widening this decision. Next step: bring this more to the community?
      • Bruno:
        • appreciates improvements \o/
        • agree with reflections on the standing point, not to be a very time consuming thing, can decide whether we need to go deeper into it or not, and otherwise would be very brief, culture around the work and weekly meeting let’s us create how we manage it. if we do end up getting bogged down in discussion, could try only once a month
        • wondering about the correct space to make the decisions about what to prioritize, relates to do-ocracy aspects (the people who are doing decide what/how things get done), also relates to governance, still nice to have some of that if people have motivations to work on particular things. OTOH widening the decision making forum to the wider community would be good.
        • keeping this pragmatic right now, the karrot team is a good space for this deciding, as we incorporate feedback from groups
        • right now connection maybe not good enough for group members to get involved there
      • consent:
        • Nathalie: yes!
        • Nick: yes!
        • Bruno: yes!
      • we’ll put this as an agreement on the karrot team & feedback group, with a review period of 4 months
      • we decided not to wait to check with Vas, as it’s not a very dramatic proposal, and changes can be proposed in the future anyway…
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
    • Board - Karrot Community
    • organising the board can be done during co-working, tomorrow and in general
    • missing a “currently working on” column? (or use forum “assign” feature)
    • wondering how tags look, and assigned cards
    • extra columns could be nice, e.g. active design process, activate development
    • would be nice to write descriptions for “About the X category” topics
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
    • a round!
    • Bruno:
      • feels like the topic is progressing since making HacktionLab proposal
      • don’t have anything specific now
      • touched on it today slightly with the question on prioritizing the workflow
    • Nathalie:
      • update on Karrot & FOSC exploration, people filled out when2meet survey, date being sent out this week
      • John/Jane will take lead on preparing the meeting, faciliating and notetaking, nice Nathalie doesn’t have to do those bits :slight_smile:
      • it should give a bit more input on this topic :slight_smile:
      • was thinking, about the board… this dev-decides → team decides → maybe community. noticing changes in team and faciliating, and asking for consent. could reflect or formalize more. we still didn’t actually clarify what the “karrot team” is and who is in it… could formalize the team structure.
      • struggle with ideas on involving the community more, when we are less clear about the team itself. community involvement looks really unsure, whereas doing our team structure itself can move us forward, and look at community after that. get’s overwhelming and unsure how it would work, but do appreciate that
    • Nick:
      • work coordination, each person knows what they’re doing
      • political structure, doing things differently to corporate tech
      • danger to recreate bullshit
      • bigger narrative really present
      • day to day is really easy to do for me
  • community tech thing [R]
  • removal/ database change agreement?
  • change profile name (email from forum)
  • groups leaving?
    • going beyond rumour of group leaving, how to understand needs, and open discussion
    • round
      • Nathalie:
        • can relate, with sense of rumour, and semi-public information, feeling a bit unsure
        • conversation about translation of foodsharing in #foodsharing-dev, promoting to non-german groups
        • could start a conversation, could drop it, an open conversation could be nice
        • subgroups are useful, and more formal structures on foodsharing than Karrot
      • Bruno:
        • important to get feedback if groups do decide to leave
        • even if we can’t provide for the unmet needs of the group right now
        • nothing wrong being part of another chat
        • fine to bring it up, having seen information on #foodsharing-dev
      • Nick:
        • complexity of feelings is interesting, part personal, part organisational
        • feeling good about the way things are with foodsharing
        • freedom to use any tools
        • feelings of ‘taking away’ users (both ways Karrot ↔ foodsharing)
        • bring conversation up, esp. around Karrot for bigger groups
      • Nathalie:
        • would be happy to bring this to a conversation, personal vs group
        • like to just say things
        • interesting to share potentials
      • Bruno:
        • good to be straightforward and open
        • practical thing good to act on
        • emotional part can also relate to, that we all have, work and passion, feeling of people taking it away or not appreciating it, good to be aware of it, brave to talk openly about it
        • not be carried away with the emotions for the practical steps, a good opportunity for growing the project, developing the concept and organisation
        • not sure best place for the conversation, 1-on-1 can be fine, or can find a good more open channel, others can also participate there, would be curious, up to you :slight_smile:
      • Nick:
        • happy with our conversation
        • reflections about how to make space for emotional topics within an organistion
        • have space to bring topics in

next week:

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
19

Date: 2023-05-09 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: All
Participants: Bruno, Vas, Nick, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • local currency project going forward (Bruno)
      • interesting talks, one on Hylo, would be nice to connect (Nathalie)
      • Vas going to Switzerland and doing research on CSA/CSX
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Yeah!
      • next Tuesday general:
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Bruno

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • FOSC call scheduled for next monday see Karrot [R/E]
    • how do we prepare for this call?
    • agenda on gdrive? when? would it be editable?
    • participants will have a say on the agenda
    • Nathalie can forward the feedback, Nick will be happy to reply: write about intentions
    • Nick
      • running the project sociocratically (Karrot). Explore that.
      • intersection with the CSA (gov, community, resources). Federated network.
      • software aspect itself and sociocracy
      • adding more sociocratic groups on Karrot. How would that look?
    • Bruno
      • what they said
    • Nathalie
      • explore existing governance
      • how we explain our governance and how they will receive it?/reflect on?
      • wondering role of FOSC within the ecosystem
      • potential for ongoing community of practise?
    • Vasilis
      • what they said
      • could be too much for a first call
      • interested in other case studies for software projects, how it worked, or not
  • Review the money agreement Money distribution in Karrot
    • do a round, put some thoughts, might take some more thinking and discussionn, nlnet funding application is pending, doesnt feel like taking about basic income
    • stay more in the reflection phase, what worked well? what not? another round of ideas? How effective was this policy what did we like? understand what worked and maybe go to what we would suggest to change?
    • facilitate a review sesh, best if someone is willing to facilitate. Make a simpler proposal: extend until to find what is going with NLnet
    • how do we feel about it so far?
      • Nick: good to have sth to distribute money, made a material difference to me, guess to other ppl, now few things feel towards a dif direction. 1. Nlnet funding that we received, 2. transition: structrure and organisations and how we go forward? Feels of energy deficit open more topics, lots of uncertainties
      • Nathalie: still like the money agreement, money circles went really well. high idealistic standard the intrinsic bit? One tention is how we deal with the funding? I dont see such a big gap, have kind of both.
      • Bruno: if we get the grant then we re-reflect on how we distribute money. It feels nice as it is now. Wondering if things will collide if we receive new/other form of funding?
      • Vas: first time experienced money agreement based on needs, nice aspect of connecting through this topic, nice that happened, amounts changed in the past, interested to talk about basic income idea, interested how ‘intrinsic motivation’ lands with people, extrinsic also a factor

Next:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • change the “approved” role in Solikyl [Nick]
  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • maybe fill out the “About the X category” topics used on the board [maybe Bruno???]
  • read “Proposal B” on Proposal for making changes to the database based on user requests in the case of conflicts - HedgeDoc if you want, will discuss it more next week for consent [anyone, or no-one]
  • engage in conversation about Karrot/ foodsharing software usage of groups [all]
  • write a repy to FOSC reflecting to what we discussed [Nick]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
20

Date: 2023-05-16 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: All
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick, Vas

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Yes! Nathalie maybe
      • next Tuesday general: y
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • change the “approved” role in Solikyl [Nick]
  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • maybe fill out the “About the X category” topics used on the board [maybe Bruno???]
  • read “Proposal B” on Proposal for making changes to the database based on user requests in the case of conflicts - HedgeDoc if you want, will discuss it more next week for consent [anyone, or no-one]
  • engage in conversation about Karrot/ foodsharing software usage of groups [all]
  • write a repy to FOSC reflecting to what we discussed [Nick]

4. Discussion points

  • FOSC meeting yesterday [R]

    • who (outside Karrot)
      • rust and fosc exploratory talks in the past (Jane from FOSC)
      • has interesting insights
      • John interested in local foodsaving and probably some coding/dev backround
      • Ahmed doing agile coaching
    • topics:
      • governance within the Karrot team (who, how we organise)
      • sociocracy and gov for the groups/users (features, guiding principles for governance)
      • fed stucture betweeen karrot groups and karrot team
      • focus on the gov to the Karrot team tbw as sth more tangible to start with
      • not a regular meeting, check again in a month, formal and informal
      • q: membership topic? fluid – non-fluid (rigid, well defined). What needs os projects have in general? need for dif membership models? What does it mean? How the sociocratic model can fit in os projects? keypoint: the context of os projects, alllowing dif participation types
      • open source can be capitalist friendly and get enclosed
      • how to make governance ‘open?’
      • CS x bring sth outside of software
      • how to organise self-organisation? maybe sociocracy is the way
      • what is the Karrot role in that? What kind of governance do we want to code to the groups?
      • how not to force participation?

  • attachment/image progress from last week [R]

    • making progress :slight_smile:

  • Interesting funding: The Urban Doers Grant - DUT Partnership

    • something for Karrot, or maybe for the foodsaving community using Karrot?
    • didnt dick deep yet
    • for urban doers
    • no need for legal status (we need to confirm that)
    • The deadline for submitting your application is 14 June 2023
    • ppl meet to exchange knowledge: networking and paper/report to produce
    • 10 projects will be selected
    • clarify if we are eligible to apply?

  • Karrot day(s) 2023 [E]

    • a regular catchup, even sth simpler, a community cafe (vas)
    • maybe can start discussing the idea of meeting as a team, if we see that we can do Karrot days as part of that. We meet for a few days and try to organise sth online with other groups. We can make sth easy (couple of sessions). Would make sense to organise those things together (bruno)
    • thinking on a purely online setup, finding a date is always a tricky part, would enjoy bringing it to an op level, play with the roles cocept, have concerns coming up in every meeting, we can build on last year exp, not super excited to bring this forward atm (Nat)
    • first thought was a bit of overwhelm, hearing the motivation from other ppl, will go on for 1 d thing and manageable, online feels more manageble and discreet, question who wants to steward? I m up to support (Nick)

  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • send e-mail to DUT and ask about our eligibility, regarding legal status (Vas)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
21

Date: 2023-05-23 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: All
Participants: Nathalie, Bruno, Vasilis, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h10 from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: not nick, bruno, vas
      • next Tuesday general:
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!:

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • Week before (forgot to go through)
    • change the “approved” role in Solikyl [Nick]
    • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
    • maybe fill out the “About the X category” topics used on the board [maybe Bruno???]
    • read “Proposal B” on Proposal for making changes to the database based on user requests in the case of conflicts - HedgeDoc if you want, will discuss it more next week for consent [anyone, or no-one]
    • engage in conversation about Karrot/ foodsharing software usage of groups [all]
    • write a reply to FOSC reflecting to what we discussed [Nick]
    • send e-mail to DUT and ask about our eligibility, regarding legal status (Vas)
      • we’re not

4. Discussion points

  • DUT funding thing [R]
    • The Urban Doers Grant - DUT Partnership
    • we’re not a legal entity, so go away
    • sometimes can borrow someone elses legal entity
    • european level foodsharing stuff, maybe other groups interested?
    • leave it hanging for now…
  • Kranti feedback [E]
    • would be nice to understand the situation fully, maybe do a user story, and then do something about it. Not sure if a feature is needed
    • vas:
      • had a chat with Kranti before, and invited her to the group
      • refered to a feature they’d like if people didn’t show up to pickups, so they can know who it was and enforce a penalty
      • invited to group to share with all of us
      • they are organised in small committees, one that goes to supermarkets, someone wanted feedback after the activity to see who actually joined (so collect that as data alongside who had signed up)
    • bruno:
      • core of problem, agreed. how to deal with people that did sign up, but didn’t show up.
      • maybe not clear for her how to find the “activities missed” statistics
      • maybe still a confusion between signing up and not showing up, vs activity missed (nobody signed up) (as karrot doesn’t know magically what happened)
      • a lot relates to community governance topics, which karrot could facilitate more, but not fully
      • if we had penalties/sanctions might be good, pausing people, softer sanctions… less than the membership review. report system? who could do that? voting? lots? of? questions? roles?
      • we don’t currently understand the structure of their organisation, which people would be assigned to deal with those situations
      • once we know about how it works in their groups, can feed that into how we could develop features that support that
    • nathalie:
      • lot of good things said
      • good hints in brunos reply
      • agreed the software doesn’t have this information if somebody doesn’t attend
      • would advise to understand it further, maybe always have two people for a pickup, so somebody can catch the case
      • not clear how much the issue is occuring, wondering if they have that understanding too
      • maybe feedback feature to collect who showed up could be nice, but danger of finger pointing, and public judgement
      • in foodsharing there is 1-2 people responsible for a particular co-operation, and would be possible to write to those people to tell them
      • good to understand better the group dynamics, is it because it’s growing, or accountability is missing. wondering how to deal with on a group level.
    • nick:
      • clear thing is understanding hte situation better. Strucrture of the group, how it should work, what is going wrong and then explore that together.
      • Community-level wisdom, a small feature or bigger feature, go through the process of understanding
      • standing topic of org structures, there is no contract that Karrot-team and groups on the level of software
    • vas:
      • will engage in convo on karrot
      • share the idea of using the feedback?
      • like Nathalies point it can end up like a policing situation, public shaming…
      • big discussion (another one!!!), free-riding behaviour is accepted… non-reciprocal behaviours, not having fixed roles, etc… if it’s this loose thing, is it ok if you don’t show up?
    • bruno:
      • next step, should make it clear to kranti, we’re very interested in taking this seriously, and helping her out, as it helps us a project
      • we want to have a better understanding of which part is the community organising governance part, and which part is feature-building software part, and the intersection of them (interesting juicy bit)
      • how can we continue developing software that supports the kind of community organising that we want to see
      • could suggest a session with her to discuss, not clear how much it’s a pressing issue, have to guage from her reply
    • nathalie:
      • basically agree
      • would like to see us responding in a way that’s taken on, or taken seriously
      • seems vas has some motivation there
      • personally like the idea to bring it to a session, and would likely join, if somebody else is organising it
      • wonder where responsiblities lie, one person responsible to keep convo going?
      • how to make it more concrete (rooted? more env friendly)
    • nick:
      • agree with everyone
      • falling in the gaps of resp bit. We dont really have that. Pipeline an ‘issue’. I like the intention of feeling resp to support the group, dev of features, constraint of our resources
      • try and not jump into everything
      • accountability frameworks
    • vas:
      • interesting discussion to pick up at some point… wish and will to implement ideas from kranti, or help out… we’re making the container for some groups, are we providing a service? or have our own agenda? bruno said nice thing, “the communities we want to see, and they want to see as well”
      • participatory design is all nice, but do we also have standards we don’t want to cross
      • with funding can you provide better services, does it make you a service provider? how much can we be that provider? vs what we wanna do?
  • Daniel self-hosting interest [E]
    • interested in setting up an instance for their group, and use the karrot groups as subgroups
    • nick pointed to co-op cloud offered more help with hosting
    • vas:
      • what is the situation with foodsharing.de?
      • our self hosting guide we did before, is anyone hosting one?
        • nick: I don’t know of anyone doing so
    • bruno:
      • don’t know anything else about situation
      • nice to offer support
      • very interesting if they could run one, and see what they do with it, seeing how they organise a big group
      • question comes up about inter-group interactions, relates to breaking-the-silo, doors-not-walls, but need more work to create more spaces for interactions beyond the groups
      • the solution (with a general group) could work
      • design question for groups
      • people in hylo have been into these topics, working with prosocial community
      • karrot can improve a lot there, creating more flexilbity and other spaces, people that don’t belong in groups, etc…
    • nathalie:
      • makes total sense, would be curious to see
      • would still be same software, not a fork
        • nick: I guess :slight_smile:
      • reminds of discussion about how to run sociocratic organisation with karrot, see two ways:
        • “places” for circles (as don’t see who is in the place, favourites, not members), very transparent
        • other way is own instance and “groups” for circles, many groups, but features make more sense for group-as-circle, applications, defined membership, membership review… circle voting…
      • wonder how it would work with loads of karrot groups? how do you show how they relate… could have org diagram seperate
      • very closed though, as wouldn’t see what is going in, and a whole group just for a 4-5 person group seems overkill, not perfect
      • very interesting
      • nice to see his comittment to karrot
      • don’t know anything about foodsharing part of it
    • nick:
      • didnt interpret as going away from fs but exploring all options maybe
      • would assume both explorations (Karrot and fs) continue
      • offered to help with data migration
      • interesting what shared already regarding relations between groups (nested and real group)
      • hylo: had indiv groups now can have multiple parent and child groups. Sth like that would make sense. Can support dif ways of relating.
      • if they have their own instance they have acess/ownership of their data? But if they want to delete an account then they do not reach back to us but do that themselves…
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • money amounts from June onwards [D]
    • last time we talked about it in march, with a 2 months review
    • could either do it now, or skip it?
    • postpone to next week
    • see minutes Date: 2023-04-04
  • foodsharing barcamp in Luxembourg over-the-boarders - foodsharing Akademie
    • daniel update us with brief message
    • page in german, registration available in english
    • quite detailed application
    • 50-70 people, they’ll choose :slight_smile: apply then get selected, or not
    • can include in the application if you want to give a workshop
    • question for us is if we’re going
    • we had been talking about a workshop before, and this seems like a participate form, but maybe it’s all the same
    • collective filling it out? or us as individuals?
    • vas:
      • checking dates… gunna be in switzerland, so quite close by, works on personal level, not sure have capacity to organise a workshop, as in june we have the CSA thing with nick, then working…
      • for fun of it, like the idea of going
      • vas wants to hang out in the bar (presumably to party)
      • last day in switzerland should be 20th august, so a bit tight with dates…
    • bruno:
      • YOU’RE MUTED!!!
      • ooh august, hard for me to attend, work/family/kids, fri-sun
      • not sure about logistics just for a couple of days
      • unlikely, but not completely out of the question, would be fun
      • esp. if we want to do a karrot workshop, but not clear on that status, from our or their side, have to ask if they’d like us to something, and ask ourselves…
    • nick:
      • go where the energy flows, which seems that have dropped
      • try the meeting in person thing
      • would like to have the in person hanging out
      • we have difficult logistics and its ok to accept that
      • boat will be being built, partly present, party not a lot to do
      • in theory attending would work
      • could make sense to go to share about karrot, it seems it’s all about our topics :slight_smile:
    • nathalie:
      • committed to go
      • 50 people seems quite small, so exclusive, yearning for something bigger
      • would seem a nice end of foodsharing activities, as close to having nothing there, will be out by august
      • wonder who will be there that I know
      • aware of selection process
      • if nobody I want to meet, less motivated
      • generally motivated, and would be happy for karrot people to go
      • for workshops, maybe could offer sociocracy workshop
      • doing something for karrot would be nice, info point? show and tell? short presentation, could be quite unprepared…
      • “workshop” is more participatory thing
      • spontaneous show and tell, walk through software, show it’s there… half hour, half hour questions, good bye!
    • bruno:
      • saw on application form, they might have childcare! ah! could bring one… if we all go would feel more motivated, will investigate
  • right to roam group [R]
  • community tech drinks [R]
  • “shared futures” community app [R]

next time:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • co-work on CSA/CSX [vas and nick]
  • follow up with Kranti’s comments [vas]
  • similarly with Daniel from Lux [all?]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
22

Date: 2023-05-30 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: All
Participants: Bruno, Nick, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h10 from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Nathalie maybe not able t make it the two following weeks
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: yes!
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • co-work on CSA/CSX [vas and nick]
  • follow up with Kranti’s comments [vas]
  • similarly with Daniel from Lux [all?]

4. Discussion points

  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
    • exploring intentions, round, nick, nathalie, bruno
    • Nick
      • like to surface intentions, as a geeral theme in life, helps focus
      • both on a personal level and a project level
      • would like have more explicit intention, like “strateging”
      • we managed to be resilient, unlike many other projects
      • strategy would be good for the needs that Karrot is serving: needs of contributors, and the people using it
      • perhaps a mindmap would be useful
    • Nathalie
      • unclear what intentions means
      • but likes to have more strategy, clear aims and what we’re doing
      • enjoys short statements
      • what do we need to full heartedly promote Karrot
      • notices some hesistance to do it
      • been thinking about the growing topic, growing groups…
      • think about the topic of defoodification, does it work for us?
    • Bruno
      • many thoughts, but a bit blurry
      • tend to agree it would be good to have clear intentions, resurface them, maybe they are clear, maybe not…
      • always a danger, personally and organizationally to fall into routine, unaware of why we’re doing things… just doing because we’ve always done them
      • why are we here, does it make sense? what’s the strategy?
      • would benefit from having a strategy
      • have been dealing with how we organize and money, preparing towards the future, but not actually looking into the future
      • … building a nest, but for what…
      • karrot should start building bird nests
      • but what are our little birds and where will they go
      • but not like the twitter bird which has fallen off it’s nest
      • anyway…
      • happy to talk about defoodification
      • do we want to grow? is it important. I think so, need to reach more people, don’t want unsustainable growth. how to have organic growth.
      • how do we become useful and show we can be useful
      • genuine and organic, not just trying to sell YetAnotherTool to help organise
      • think about outreach from time to time
      • or focus more on improving it for the existing communities
      • lots of questions!
    • Nathalie
      • maybe next time we talk about organizational structure, could reflect on the converstion with FOSC
      • team membership and fluidity
    • round
      • Nathalie
        • one thing took away: not make membership a binary thing
        • is this the right phrasing?
        • where does the idea of fluidity in membership come?
        • felt like needed to defend that it’s maybe not working as well for as for others
        • stands out in the notes: four or five members?
        • how much connections is needed to work together? Sociocracy is based on connection
        • what’s the minimal necessary to work together?
        • no connection between Nathalie and Tillman on Karrot work. How to relate to each other?
        • previous experience of living together also affects this. Not much talking and even less relating to Karrot
        • does not want to feel obliged to start a conversation
        • this is more generally about fluidity in mebmership, what it means
      • Nick
        • notes helped
        • formal vs informal pathways
        • training would relate more to SOFA than FOSC
        • how does it relate to FLOSS projects that already have their culture of open participation
        • Karrot doesn’t feel deeply embedded in open-source culture, coming more from community organising, but some patterns come in
        • consumer vs participant culture relates to the question of fluidity, recognizing the interconnectedness of things
        • reading an article that was interesting: The Yak Online Governance Primer
        • Federation - Co-op Cloud: Public Interest Infrastructure did organisation structure into federation
        • really like to understand better how to support the “uncomfortableness” that Nathalie described. Would like to do something to resolve it
      • Bruno
        • didn’t realise until now that there is some uncomfortableness at not working all together, some background I don’t fully understand, and some personal aspects
        • one way people seek to resolve, is to separate things, where do we stand on a personal level, and an organizational level, how do we co-operate? can we separate? can we untangle or not?
        • thinking about own-experience in foodsaving community, so many personal things and conflicts come up when people are active in the project, how can we untangle or separate. maybe something that can be made better with clearer definitions, and boundaries. what is project and what is not.
        • not trying to advocate corporate mentality of HR, and only focus on work, ignoring personal, but to some degree, in general that has some truth
        • topic of personal situations and how they relate to a project
        • a movement to formalising things, when there is uncertainty or conflict, a move towards making things more explicit and more formal, have observed
        • not sure how to connect that back to karrot
        • interesting to continue talking about it
        • relates to some aspects of open source culture, where people might have little connection
      • Nathalie
        • intention wasn’t to look at the personal level, but how our organising can support us
        • Tilmann not only example of unclarity around membership
      • Nick
        • feels like not understanding what’s happening and how to navigate that, would need help
        • interesting reference (not that would like to have it on Karrot): 42/C4 | ZeroMQ RFC
        • topic needs more space, feels important
      • Bruno
        • can continue, is a standing topic
  • money amounts from June onwards [D]
    • how do we do this again?
    • balance EUR14224.98
    • Bruno: gets EUR 200 and would like to continue getting the same amount
    • Nick: 500 for one month. It was not clear when the new amount starts after we decide. Would like to continue. Karrot is main part of his life
    • Nathalie: EUR 200 for now. Could go down to EUR 150. Feels contribution is limited to meetings and co-working. Would like to eventually change to an hourly rate. Happy EUR 150
    • Vas: absent, probably partying, will probably keep getting the same amount EUR 230 to keep on partying. Keep it like that if he doesn’t object
    • relfection on decision-making process of the money amounts: would be nice to start with the explicit consent/objection
    • valid for 3 months, June, July, August payments. (payment itself is made on whatever schedule the person wants)
    • we need an accountant! Nick did April payment with the amount of the month before (paying it forward or backwards?)
    • for which month are we making the payment?
    • it would be good to have a note on Wise for the month

Next time:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • co-work on CSA/CSX [vas and nick]
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • share notes from FOSC meeting with Karrot team [Nathalie]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
23

Date: 2023-06-06 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes: All
Participants: Nathalie, Vasilis, Nick, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 10/11
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick
        • [Nathalie] can someone reply to the emails? I won’t make it tomorrow
      • next Tuesday general: Nick
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: maybe Vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
  • co-work on CSA/CSX [vas and nick]
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • share notes from FOSC meeting with Karrot team [Nathalie]

4. Discussion points

  • CSA talk [E]
    • vas has created a framework in which to discuss it, and grounds the topic, within platform capitalism, CSA, CSX, and commons peer-production
    • superficial/initial parallel between CSA → CSS (community supported software)
    • how to pin it down, make it simple, so we can initiate discussion
    • is one thing that’s discussed in current paper, not main focus
    • will send it over → Karrot paper v. 8 for CSA talk - Google Docs
    • Nick has been thinking a lot about sustainability of open source as a model
    • some uncertainty how hybrid remote works
  • Nathalie’s contribution to Karrot [E]
    • two parts
    • recently linked an article about consent and membership in the karrot forum, Ted talking about leaving a circle is very unilateral, but could be a proposal, to think about the needs of the organisation (to see what responsibilities people have)
    • periodically thinking about leaving, putting karrot aside, for some time, or for good. have several projects, and deprioritize contributions to karrot, so karrot would be first to cut if something else came up
    • wondering how it’s going, not one reason, but some little things, things that feel uncertain, which makes it easier to let go
    • sociocracy stuff feels higher priority, looking for some other projects, and if taking another project then need to free up time
    • history of karrot and personal connection influencing present, which echoes into the present, wondering why it bothers
    • need to be independent, and a sense of entanglement, and uncertain belonging, moving away from foodsharing somewhat, and still some ties there
    • wondering about the flow of work and the type of tasks, not so wanting to relive the structural topics, inside the team in karrot being the one looking for more structure, but not so much wanting to think about all these topics in karrot, feels heavier than in other spaces looking from the outside
    • did enjoy the nlnet flow, designing features, and wondered about getting more into software and maybe coding things. is this the right space for that though, thinking about who is investing time. looking for something where more people are contributing more work, with a bigger team. more focused projects.
    • could grow time, but question of money, would we all grow our time, not clear. wonder if it’s a tension for Nick too, if he would do more time. don’t feel like stepping up do participate more in karrot, and the topics to engage with are too big to manage with a small time
    • calls and co-working have a nice atmosphere, so feels nice, so still thinking. karrot days were nice, meeting in august would be nice.
    • wondering a bit more when off screen
    • unresolved tension plays some part, although not the main thing
    • thinking how long I would stay, what would be the process of leaving, or whether something would change. hear the efforts to find comfortable, but without feeling a future there, maybe not fair to accept process to find a place
    • interested to hear comments and reactions, and hoping for some clarity after hearing us
    • Vasilis:
      • two levels, emotional level and practical level
      • feel sad thinking about Nathalie leaving the project, as it’s worked super nice, really trust her, the energy she brought shifted karrot in a different direction that is more promising than it was before, was chatting with people in the house and the way we run the meetings and the structure she introduced led to more effective meetings, have learned a lot from her perspective, a lot of things brought to the discussions, e.g. discussions around the organic structures, which are embedded in capitalism, etc… blah
      • emotionally would find ways to motivate her to stay in project as a friend
      • on the practical level, we do suffer from not enough contributors, so would be an issue, can see sometimes she might feel lost, and uncertain of own contribution, although clearer with phd to work on
      • seasonal karrot thing, so maybe going through a summer, seasons change, e.g. with nlnet, karrot is still quite foodsaving centric, but heard potential interest in her about engaging in other contexts
    • Nick:
      • appreciate sharing it, when leaving a circle having a process around it, pll leaving karrot thorugh the years and almost faded away, dissaperead,slow divorce, appreciate the intentioanlity to make it clearer,
      • reflecting on relationship therapy stuff, when sb is ready to leave and bring up all the topics to motivate and make things appeall to stay
      • noticed for sometime what ur contribution could be, find the pathway for ur contribution, wouldl be happy to support this process
      • sadness of the autumn tries as the winter sets in, seasonal things is sth that I embrace, natural cycles not lines
      • my main thing woud be doing higher priority than the project’s itself
      • it is dif for Karrot to meet a more solid infrastructure/stucture of a well-flowing team, in reality Karrot atm is not that, it is frindge/exprimental, it was even more in the past, efforts to bring it in the current economy but this is really hard, if Karrot to be my only financial source I dont think this will happen, but Karrot keeps going, Karrots severly underesourced still makes this project vs other well funded pilots that die off quickly
      • I d prefer if it was most stable, would like it to bring in enough money, or have enough stuff done and have a more stable team, that is uncertain though, wonder a lot if it is needed as a piece of software, what groups would do? smooth transition? thinking more of the value we offer…same dillemas probs to which we have been encountering
    • Bruno:
      • (has kid on lap, and distractions around)
      • discussion brings up a lot of thoughts
      • wondering what things I enjoy, and don’t enjoy, or don’t meet my needs, etc. what keeps me going
      • regarding Nathalies exploration, thinking about leaving, agree with what’s being said, really sad, want to try and understand the reasons, kind of clear to me, but not fully
      • tend to try and say, nono stay! but at the end up to you, like that open up the possiblity of exploring, to actually see if there is something deeply embedded in karrot culture that doesn’t fit, or maybe we can do something about it
      • maybe two things, needs-related, financial aspect etc. but also think about it in terms of enjoyment, which things have been enjoyable, maybe they’re missing now, or still there? how to bring some more focus on those aspects, more intentional
      • karrot comes in waves, the enjoyment. sometimes can be really enthusiastic, like to put time on it. sometimes don’t have much time, going with the flow, without head in it so much, so stay in hiberation, come to meetings but not much more. could also take a pause from it and return at a later point.
      • we’re at quite unfocused moment for karrot now, maybe we have a need/urge to focus to go into a new period (of seasonability), which might come with more structure in the work we do, sometimes wondering what to do, what are we focusing on
      • if we got another financing from nlnet it would bring us more structure, even if it doesn’t happen would be nice to bring more structure and intentionality, defining how much time we’d like to dedicate, set some self-goals, and find how to work to achieve it
      • personally, always have the tension of unstructured and structured way, being very adapable and flexible to life, so can take a step back when I need it, and dive deep when I feel like it, being mindful of others and what they expect of me, like that :slight_smile:
      • usually struggle with the tension, as it’s a bit unclear and have to pose the question, which space are people in
      • nice to have discussion now, an opportunity to try and sync that, esp. as Nathalie is feeling out of sync, is there a way to sync it so it would work, maybe others would move into another season of the project, on the long term though perhaps it’s not suitable on the longer term, unstructure/unstructure, sync/de-sync is not always suitable for many people during certain times, or personalities, which is proabably why many people would not join Karrot
      • as a conclusion, really appreciate that you bring it up, before leaving, like to believe there is some chance to maybe make it work, can also accept if it doesn’t work for you, like to see it as something to explore, is it something we cannot really provide, it’s a nice conscious choice to go onto other stuff, maybe it’s something we could provide, and maybe can find sources of enjoyment still to continue, and find enthusiasm again to be able to dedicate time to it
      • like to talk openly about it
    • Nathalie:
      • thank you everyone :slight_smile: for taking the time, and in depth answers
      • after finishing, and the round started, feeling sadness, then conversation shifted, feel less sad again, more in a constructive space, which is nice
      • two things stood out
      • emotional side is a big one, how karrot is embedded in different connections and people, and what are my connections with those, so one way would be try and take the emotional side out, could be a break? topic is a lot from an emotional side in this project in particular
      • karrot is not quite a solid infrastructure, and how life is flowing right now struggling with some solidness, and being in a project without that, is difficult, so if rest of life was more solid might be different
      • some constructive thoughts, leaving, or less governance meetings, or less involved in the bigger discussions, having a more concrete role in specific things, e.g. only at co-working, advertising more support of the software, so not being in the general circle, something more specific, abstract vs concrete topics
      • would like to take the conversation and let it ripen/sit a bit
      • find to close the topic for now, and happy to continue, still around for now, wouldn’t increase contribution though
    • Vasilis:
      • one thing to add, Nick said karrot is project in fringes, very true, don’t have to be delusional, unless we’re lucky or take steps it’ll stay there, but it’s on our hands to try and make it work somehow, to become more stable and create this more rigid/solid/stable infrastructure, won’t go into more now
    • Nick:
      • put visioning in a seperate thing to co-working, genereal and make a more clear vision strategy e
    • Bruno:
      • we’re creating this together, feels like there is quite some room for changing/adapating/improving, happy you’re stickinng around for a while at least :slight_smile: top tip: find the sources of joy and focus on that
  • foodsharing barcamp in Luxembourg [E/D]
    • an update! website updated → BARCAMP & FESTIVAL - foodsharing Akademie also available in English
    • unclear how the karrot project interacts with this festival, initially we had the workshop idea, but not talked about so much now
    • workshop offer was listed there, a sociocracy thing for foodsaving groups, so Nathalie agreed to giving a sociocracy workshop
    • there is a bit of a division in the registration process between presenters and participants, they pay and can cover some travel costs
    • seems nice to go there, has been on mind for a while
    • maybe worth talking to Daniel again about workshop space, not clear how full they are, there is an “open space” still
    • seems in karrot it switched from giving a workshop to just coming, wouldn’t push for giving a karrot presentation outside the open space
    • registration is open until june 15th so register now
    • Vasilis:
      • came across some posters about it, checked on the map, will be 3h on a train away :slight_smile: unless something bad happens will try and be there, Nathalie being there makes it more motivating
      • regards to doing something with karrot team, today would say don’t have energy for it now, but might eventually come, but can’t take the lead, would be happy to go there and meet with people, have a chat, and have a nice weekend (if it is a weekend :slight_smile:
    • Nick:
      • Was more motivated when I checked the buses, a bit of a long journey but not too crazy, need to make a decision before that time, right in the boat building time, good or bad, sort of inclided to plan it in and book it, as participant, could imagine try and make and informal info point, show ppl Karrot, print out a thing, dunno if that would fit in. And then closer to the time I can bail but if booked already more secure, travel costs, 30 euros attend, use some Karrot money to do that?
    • Bruno:
      • yes, was looking at buses and bus fares, and ways to do it, feel like if realistic, quite unlikely to be able to make it, but could be quite a fun trip if could take frans with me, I think it said they had some child care, will continue to investigate to see if it’s feasible
      • regarding karrot’s participation, should definately do something there if anyone is going, just to present and say we exist, can be useful to a lot of groups, would be a shame to lose this opportunity
    • Nathalie:
      • quite highly funded thing, so doesn’t have moneyfree vibe from early yunity days, they do say they have solidarity participation in the travel costs, strategy would be to try and apply for receiving that, as it says they can provide for travel costs
      • ok using karrot money, costs shouldn’t come from peoples personal accounts
      • don’t want to feel like a promoter of it :slight_smile:
  • explore translations: karrot localization | Transifex, can anyone sign up and help? how does it work? [E]
    • Nick:
      • people can request new languages
      • also have to add it in the software
    • Vas tried greek translating:
      • things miss the context, e.g. “start membership review process”, hard to understand context and translate well
      • could we have auto translation? and a native speaker can edit it?
    • Bruno:
      • also struggled with lack of context, even being familiar with karrot
      • not clear where the particular string is placed
      • ideal scenario would be to have a screenshot
    • Vasilis:
      • doing greek, did 500 lines, then had a call with Bruno, to give help with tool, and that was very helpful
      • maybe a manual, and video tutorial, could help
    • Nathalie:
      • from feedback, did look at it, have a question, do I just add the translation then it’s done, or does it need approval? or if you see something in the software, how to find out where it is to improve it? what standard are we aiming for? not super trained in translations, feels like fine with “good enough”
      • general sense is if we want to engage with it and bring languages to a higher percentage, it would need someone, or a team to take care of it, something good to know, could be a nice task
    • Bruno:
      • if people contact us, or there is an issue, should give them support, would be up for helping out, have a walk through, or figuring out a context for the translations, would be a good start for people that want to translate
      • no review process currently, transifex has some features for reviewing, currently you can just type anything and at some point it would get live
      • would be nice to have, German, Swedish, … clearer defined sense of ownership, team/circle/etc.
      • German is only at 85%, and we don’t have professionals, so feel free to step up
      • translation for brazilian portgugues has lots of weird things, so would like to update it if there is time
    • Nick:
      • lot of tech stuff on how it works, share more in operational detail, two types of translators: karrot users and random internet ppl and they dont know anything about it, esperanto 100%, feautures to talk with translators, familiarising with the tool would be useful

Next time:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (8) ← increment each time it gets moved down
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • send over basis for CSA talk [Vas]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
24

Date: 2023-06-13 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator:
Minutes: All
Participants: Nick, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 45mins from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Vas, Bruno
      • next Tuesday general:
    • pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!:

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (8) ← increment each time it gets moved down
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • send over basis for CSA talk [Vas]

4. Discussion points

  • vite-based karrot frontend [R/E]
    • showed how it’s faster to yarn dev, slower to load initial page, faster to see changes
    • would be nice if other people that do code could try it out to see how it feels, before I commit to fully integrating it
    • would need a bunch more work to switch, tests, production, etc…
    • Bruno will try it out, maybe in co-working tomorrow, with instructions on how to do so
  • funding, now that we didn’t get nlnet [E]
    • boo :frowning:
    • a million reasons why it could have been, we asked for some feedback, guess they are overloaded
    • how to we move forward?
      • Bruno:
        • beg for money :slight_smile:
        • short term, keep looking for funding
        • longer term, building up some kind of CSX model, community-supported
      • Nick:
      • Bruno:
        • have a session to look at goals/strategies, funding might be something there, but also look at how to continue without funding
      • Nick:
        • thinking what a session could look like
        • maybe already involve some others from groups?

Next time:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • try out vite based setup [Bruno]
    • git pull
    • git switch change/vite
    • yarn
    • yarn dev

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
25

Date: 2023-06-20 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Nathalie, Vasilis

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 45 min from now
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie
      • next Tuesday general: yes
        • Nathalie on vacation July 4
    • pick facilitator for next week: Vasilis

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas] (10) ← increment each time it gets moved down
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • send over basis for CSA talk [Vas]
  • try out vite based setup [Bruno]
    • git pull
    • git switch change/vite
    • yarn
    • yarn dev

4. Discussion points

  • community supported software talk [R]
    • link to presentation
    • 1:10h for the session, 25min presentation about Karrot
    • first presentation of the gathering
    • use metaphor of CSA to describe CSS
    • how can we contextualise this idea
    • member/user shift? scale?
    • participant discussion went in other direction than prepared questions
      • journalist cooperative
      • difficult to fund Karrot from the groups, they don’t have money and energy
    • lost a bit of energy during preparation process, wanted to include more sketches and drawing
    • it was recorded
    • do a post maybe?
    • Reaction
      • rich presentation, need to revisit
      • grateful that you did that!
      • interesting to see Understaffed - talk about bringing more people in?
      • thinking about change for Karrot, default would be to give money as now the default is to not give money
      • doing a bit of calculation and playing with numbers, ~30€/group?
    • reflection between Vas and Nick still need to happen
    • Vas will do research on CSA in the next time
  • Luxembourg barcamp registration [R/E]
  • funding that Nick shared [E]

Next:

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • post to read databse change proposal again [Nathalie]
  • add to feedback log thing what daniel said:

    An export feature containing at least all the places’ details would be nice so that these data could be exported manually from time to time as a backup.

  • try out vite based setup [Bruno]
    • git pull
    • git switch change/vite
    • yarn
    • yarn dev

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
26

Date: 2023-06-27 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Vasilis, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: up to the next hour that isn’t in less than 10 minutes
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • exploring commoning language and patterns
      • changing patterns in sofa
      • Nathalie applying for job at opencollective
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Bruno
      • next Tuesday general: INDEPENDENCE DAY!
        Nathalie on vacation July 4
    • pick facilitator for next week: Vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • post to read database change proposal again [Nathalie]
    • let’s take it to co-working tomorrow, maybe can consent, or just prepare

4. Discussion points

  • patterns and language of commons [R]

    • nice german site using fedwiki
    • free fair and alive book
    • care and decommodified work
    • feel inspired by … wait for it … drum roll … …
    • comments
      • Nick:
        • has a sense that this what we’re trying to do
        • would be interested in it more
      • Vas:
        • very distracted at this key moment
        • read David Bolliers book years ago, nice intro to commons
      • Bruno:
        • curious to look at new book, nice to see it online
        • many books, look similar, wondering what is substantial difference
        • very nice visuals
        • could be nice to look at the patterns/visuals, and what we’re doing that relates
        • could go deep into it, how to support the patterns as features in karrot
      • Nathalie:
        • nice to bring the topic here, didn’t expect to talk about it so much
        • do really like the visuals :slight_smile: used one for sociocracy presentation
        • quite clear link to self-organising governance
        • free, fair, and alive book mentions sociocracy and sofa
        • would love to see the cards in english
        • started reading free, fair, alive, takes a long time to read through a book though
          • tend to read relevant chapters then come back to relevant bits
          • have come back to the cards over time

  • opensociocracy / dual power app [R]

    • is there possibility for cooperation?
    • let’s see if there’s interest
    • same person doing OS and DPA, hard to understand the connection
    • opensociocracy:
      • very new, only started in may, so good on the networking so far
      • was part of a sociocratic organisation before, which is the motivation for building out
      • sociocracy and s3 are governance tools not software directly
      • there is a software tool called https://www.logbuch.org/, that is not open source
      • sofa and opensociocracy? sofa fosc circle connected to opensociocracy, not clear where that connection goes
    • fascinating how ideas can be separated by the social practise of them, big factor in reality is actual connections, we try and separated things, but personal connection important, need solid social connections

  • vision, strategy, new funding model, open collective, etc… [E]

    • funding fatigue, money from users/groups makes sense
    • should tie it into strategy
    • assume people are into that, but let’s check!
    • vibe has been waiting for funding…
    • clearer need for nick to make it financially viable, and for projects
    • nathalie also expressed need for more structured work
    • sense that we need a sense of direction from here, together
    • establishing pace of work and dedication
    • personally (bruno), would be nice to have another wave upwards, was hoping for it with nlnet application, but maybe not nercessary… depends on ability of people to dedicate time, and what funding means for that
    • strategy! would like to get things done now, a lot of potentials for fixing, maybe some new features, would need a funding model, would like to support others who need money, esp. nick, probably others too
    • could set a goal… e.g. do the opencollective thing, investigate more funding, work out different scenarios with or without funding…
    • happy to find more focus, and be supportive, although personally haven’t had so much karrot time lately
    • need to see if we align
    • Nick:
      • form the strategy, get clear on the money needs
      • what should work on next after the attachments? figure that out connected to a strategy
      • how do we make the strategy more tangible, in our practices. An agreement doc on Karrot? anyone motivated to work on it?
    • Vas:
      • key point is need to come up with a strategy, and test a model that’ll be sustainable for karrot, financially and ethically
      • funding fatigue experienced throughout life personally, not long term sustainable
      • have been thoughts in detail, but not the right time for that
      • on the same page as who is funding? in favour of it being funded by those directly using karrot
      • question remains how to do it, so far majority of groups don’t have other funding, so tricky there
    • Nathalie:
      • also like the idea of being funded by the users
      • although there are state funding schemes, can feel unfair to ask the people who work to get money to spend their money to spend other things, gets wierd thinking where money comes from… when there is big money pools somewhere
      • applying for funding that easy and puts us in a certain box
      • funded by the people!
      • interested in opencollective, still have open question about this “collective” term
      • one thing they solve is not having a legal entity, so they have fiscal hosts
      • to truly be a collective, what about our domain, who owns things, would be nice to have a collective solution for this, e.g. contact form for site, data privacy, etc. legalising karrot topic… how much does a fiscal host help? or would we need other legal forms?
      • commons theory is something that fits well with the group, and with karrot, would like to see a direction more clearly speak of it, karrot has had the food focus, then defoodification, but no clear focus to replace it, maybe commons is that focus… to be clearer who we are targetting… as maybe de-foodifcation lost the focus
    • Bruno:
      • financial models, totally in favour of long term finance by the people, doesn’t need to be users only
      • how do we make that viable long term, have to have time frames in mind, can’t achieve financial sustainability if we just go out to the groups now saying “we need money”, could be lucky, but not so much money willingness available already with this approach, would need a different scale to find those resources, maybe more groups, more people, bigger outreach, … becoming more commons-based project
      • still space for funding, esp. short/mid term, but not try to lose the vision of “we don’t need those fucking funding applications”, we can do this by ourselves! independently, collectively, democratically…
      • pragmatic approach, how can we make that happen
      • could jot things down on a document, maybe for next co-working? could do it together? during co-working or meeting? another pad, 5-10 minutes to write something down, separately? then bring together at the end… doesn’t need to take a lot of time, workshop format… half an hour… as quite aligned already in thoughts and values
      • could do something tomorrow?
      • also supporting idea of rethinking how we profile ourselves, “what is it for” now, had this general thing of “community organising”, if we connect more into theory and vocabulary, could go deeper into it, broaden our connections too, needs some investigating
    • Nick:
      • also felt we got lost after de-foodification, more towards commons
      • how much do the groups identify with commons?
      • funding by the people does not mean users only, also random people on the internet donating a couple of EUR/month would meet our needs because we have low costs
      • thing in August, a good place to start thinking together about strategy
      • also likes the idea of working on a document but not much time
    • Vas:
      • how much do the groups identify with the commons… we should investigate, so we don’t make something super exclusive, we already saw how some features on karrot don’t really fit the needs of the groups
      • not saying we shouldn’t pitch it towards commons, but is a spectrum, have to understand groups already use karrot for some specific tasks only, so not all encompassing project for them to everything within
      • if we position karrot within commons, we think of 3 basis, resources, rules, and community, and start building it in that direction, now, it does seem very much that
      • funding model, wasn’t thinking it could be other outside people, could be interesting, could also be organisations talking about commons, peer-to-peer advocating about technology, some of them are sustainable organisations, how about going door to door, you chat, we build :slight_smile: we don’t have money, you have it. how about donate, £50/month? groups, users, random people, institutions, research groups. SPONSORS!!!
      • up tomorrow in co-working to start writing some things down, then come back and check and discuss
      • even within food waste stuff, a lot of orgs chatting about food waste policy and role of technologies, have to examine what a sponsor, can be a patron, can lose agency… who are we accountable to
      • hybrid/flexible model, maybe not so easy now going to small groups telling them we need money, some of them might be yes, reward it, but maybe cannot, can write this stuff on a paper
    • Nathalie:
      • revisited the pricing model of maptio
      • thinking about process, would be good to gain feedback before making the final decision, in a structured way, could work on something, have a draft agreement, and we’d like to get money and how much would feel sustainable, agree expenses are not extremely high, so could work, wondering whether to address individuals or groups, thought to address groups first, and individuals could be additional, draft, numbers, calculations, and feedback channel
      • if there is money involved, and we say it’s still possible to use it without money, would it feel it’s not really for free, need a good frame to make clear they are really welcome to use it without contributing, but they can…
      • so, gather feedback and see if it feels like it’s a huge change, and feel stressed about it, … so to avoid it being a Big Announcement

  • follow up with recent feedback (Kranti, Daniel)

    • call poll fatigue
    • maybe one person just schedule something, and announce it for others, to avoid poll cycle
    • bruno up to do it
    • big groups is the thing

  • tech update [R]

    • attachments → review \o/
    • vite… ongoing

  • hanging application in karrot team

    • was hanging about for 2 months
    • declined without message :slight_smile:

  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]

    • let’s talk about it as an agenda item

  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

  • read “Proposal B” on Proposal for making changes to the database based on user requests in the case of conflicts - HedgeDoc if you want, will discuss it more next week for consent [anyone, or no-one]

  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

  • funding that Nick shared [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • review database change proposal in co-working [attendees of co-working]
  • start drafting strategy in co-working [attendees of co-working]
  • schedule call with Kranti [Bruno]

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
27

Date: 2023-07-04 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Everyone
Minutes:
Participants: Nick, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h, then check
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • Bruno needs to get rid of some bread
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick, Bruno, Vas
      • next Tuesday general: Nick, Bruno is travelling, might make it
    • pick facilitator for next week: ?

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • tech [R]
    • changes on vite branch
      • showing new image selection for profile images, as getting rid of vue2 compatability mode, and vue-croppa is vue2 only… and needed replacing anyway
    • attachments
      • merged to dev now
      • a few points from Bruno to address before deployment
      • mostly to make it so it doesn’t only open camera on mobile
      • one lingering thing is the download button shows above the right sidebar
      • wondering how groups will receive the new attachment
      • how to find files might be a future feature
      • … then do people want full document editing
      • … if karrot were just to become a generic chat and file platform, it’s probably not interesting enough, or worth it
      • better focusing on what we offer that is not available elsewhere… which is why it’s useful for groups now
      • getting clearer about our value proposal
      • SMS group/feature? understanding interacting with people in core vs periphery
      • peripheral people probably only can interact using the channel/method they already use, e.g. sms, or whatsapp, email, etc…
      • now looking at whatsapp api → GitHub - tulir/whatsmeow: Go library for the WhatsApp web multidevice API :slight_smile:
    • Brunos new sidenav?
      • trying to implement profile picture and the name
      • tricky part with difference between composition API and options API
      • could either get support, or leave it for Nick to complete
      • probably would take too long to figure it out alone, as have to go back to some basics
      • could have it bruno working, me watching/supporting, or me working and bruno shadowing, or me just doing it
      • best one is bruno to watch me code on it, and learn a bit
      • Nick would like to wait to get vite branch merged, as it’s nicer to work with…
    • next thing up?
      • how to choose what to work on next?
      • bruno has some ideas!
      • add a “Next up” column to the board…
      • add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group
      • @-mention bell notification doesn’t bring you to the message
        • small fix would be for if the notification doesn’t even bring you to the right conversation
          • confirmed: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
        • navigating to the actual message needs bigger changes
          • backend: different pagination to fetch “around” a particular messgae/date and have 2 ended pagination
          • frontend: a 2 ended infinite scroll component (quasar is only 1 directional)
      • autonomous flow state is sometimes very useful for doing stuff, and hard to put into a process
      • user → product → development flow… user observation is not enough on it’s own often, needs to be put in wider context of the product
  • 1/5/10 visions [R]
    • Weekly Co-working on Karrot
    • started drafting during the co-working
    • the framing was “where would you like Karrot to be in 1/5/10 years?”, then worked on it by themselves
    • bruno likes the ideas so far :slight_smile:
  • feedback session with Kranti and Daniel [R]
  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
    • let’s talk about it as an agenda item
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • for co-working tomorrow:
    • add a “Next up” column to the board…
    • add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group to board
    • add to wall: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
  • bruno will write a 1/5/10 thing: “where would you like karrot to be in 1, 5, and 10 years?”, about half an hour

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
28

Date: 2023-07-11 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes:
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • for co-working tomorrow:
    • add a “Next up” column to the board…
    • add the issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group to board
    • add to board: all the time, or maybe just in some cases, a mention notification to a wall message reply does not open the reply sidebar, only goes to the wall
  • bruno will write a 1/5/10 thing: “where would you like karrot to be in 1, 5, and 10 years?”, about half an hour

4. Discussion points

  • tech
    • feedback about vite branch [E]
      • needs more beta-testing
    • feedback about attachment niggles [E]
      • reviewed by Bruno and working
    • next up? [E/D]
      • issue about receiving chat messages after leaving group
      • marking messages read in sidebar thread
      • delay in accepting applications
      • a bigger topic?
        • maybe a separate point to discuss next meeting
        • how about limiting pickups?
        • a selection process?
          • something from the board, make candidates clear, and think of a nomination
          • so, do a round, nominate, hear reasons, … could change nomination after hearing it
          • … then another round, then faciliator takes one nomination and checks for consent
          • … can still object if needed, and go round again
          • one for more discussion, one for development
  • make/check a time poll for a feedback session [vas]
    • let’s talk about it as an agenda item
    • Vasilis is deciding how long this topic will stay in the agenda
  • barcamp Luxembourg check-in [R]
    • Nick and Vas got accepted! \o/
    • Nick not totally confirmed, still pending some boat stuff
    • discuss when to book in co-working
  • database change proposal consent [D]
  • vision, strategy, etc [E]
  • contact to mariha: what can we offer? [E]
    • Nathalie, Bruno and Vas continue conversation
    • check with Vas
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
29

Date: 2023-07-18 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick/ Bruno
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1:30
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: Nick on his own doing solo working, maybe Vas?
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: Nick

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • Luxembourg travels [R]

    • Daniel offered to host Nick for a couple of extra nights, Nick will confirm today/tomorrow
    • coordinate with Vas to be in Zurich
    • Nathalie aiming to book travel today, or very soon, friday → sunday in lux

  • feedback session with Kranti and Daniel [R]

    • notes over at Karrot Community Cafe Notes - #2 by nicksellen
    • general enthusiasm and talk both about feature and exchange of experiences in community organising in general
    • one idea that came up: giving trust connected to after doing activities.
    • What now? How to do a follow-up
    • add stuff to the board and have an active discussion

  • standing topic: check the board! [E]

  • Next step development - selection process [D]

    • what are the criteria for choosing something?
      • something that I (Nick) can start coding immediately
      • nice to have support from a user perspective
      • connected to a clear need
      • be able to contribute
      • what’s important for the groups
    • Vas: Feedback feature / no change
    • Bruno: Display of Activities / Feedback feature
    • Nathalie: Feedback feature / no change
    • Nick: Feedback feature / no change
      —> Feedback feature
      Feedback feature - Possibility to combine comments for selected activity type

  • nlnet feedback and next [R/E]

    • asked for feedback and they sent us their notes
    • question about it being too tech-centric
    • how to keep the accountability if we apply again
    • maybe our last application was too broad/fragmented to make sense of
    • happy to have a smaller and more coherant story in another application
    • dev power… theoretical danger of centring tech focus and people (well, person)
    • getting clearer over time, nick having more financial needs of developer, and fair to reflect in funding
    • making it more techie needs nick
    • vasilis happy to do 2 co-working sessions to support it
    • august 1st deadline, a tuesday
    • timeframe to allow looking at a final application as a team, allow that…
    • consent to doing another application reached from nathalie, nick, vas (bruno had left)

  • deployment this week [R]

    • attachments and more invisible work
    • Bruno’s done a bit of testing, will do more
    • maybe new mobile sidenav too? ready to merge? sure!
      • remove the duplicated entries on end of side nav, only log out left
      • new buttons, highlighting… highlighted if you’re on the page, otherwise not
        • message one has highlighting depending on unread/unseen messages
    • wanna go for a beer later?
    • nick remembering the niggle about the mention notification to a wall thread…

  • standing topic: organizational structure [E] → didn’t talk about it

5. Actions/Outcomes

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
30

Date: 2023-07-25 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Nick
Minutes:
Participants: Vas, Nick, Bruno, Nathalie

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: on the hour + 1
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
      • nick will need to run a power cable part way through the meeting
      • in 2 weeks Bruno will be back to usual routine, and more likely to join co-working, and increase karrot work
      • nathalie won’t be available next week
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: nick, vas
      • next Tuesday general: nick, vas, maybe bruno, nathalie away
    • pick facilitator for next week: vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

4. Discussion points

  • deployment happened [R]
    • issue with postal, Tillman fixed a nicer setup
    • new things
    • a lot of changes behind the scenes
    • some more apparent: sidenav, attachments
  • proposal for new nlnet application [RED]
    • Overview - HedgeDoc
    • previous application Application to NLnet Entrust
    • Vas:
      • general feedback about 3 categories, looks a bit like “incorporating features for improving community organising” as an overarching umbrella title, perhaps good for the proposal
      • we do have quite a lot of input and intel from the groups already to play around with these categories of features
      • do have more comments… about the process…
    • Bruno:
      • I like. in terms of the work we want to do, makes a lot of sense
      • wonder whether it will be something nlnet will see as relevant and worthy as funding, still a bit dubious, as going by the feedback they gave, they seem more focused on the tech itself, be new, and about federation, etc. from the call, it could be focused on privacy, and if we try to connect the work and frame in the way the call asks, could do it a bit differently: how can users of a software application generate heathly communities, as opposed to the big tech approach, problems of governance and moderation, one possible way to frame it. show a different way to do it, and that is the innovative aspect.
      • however we send it in, feels worth a shot
    • Nathalie:
      • wondering if in the right mindset for thinking about it
      • agree with Vas about the topic framing
      • was expecting to see something with activitypub still, so surprised, not sad, the chosen topics are well aligned with what we’ve done previously, and with what the groups need, and that we know quite a lot about the topics
      • having the nlnet funding might give us the magic motivation to progress the features
      • seems focused and coherent
      • open question, as bruno says, about how aligned it is with what nlnet are asking for
    • Nick:
      • feels like it makes sense, a continuation of our energy and what we’ve done so far
      • originally wrote about Activitypub but then saw the number of public activities and saw there was not much. Did not feel justifiable
      • found the three topics on the board, inside his head and soul
      • so far they’re written as dev tasks. Anyone wanting to do more on it? Speak now or shut up forever
    • Vas:
      • super happy to proceed with something development-centric, worth discussing if it’s breaking the working together kind of community vibes, as it’s quite nick-centric, I would consent, but worth bringing into the equation, compared to how we’ve been working so far
      • e.g. working through co-working sessions, design sessions, reporting back, etc…
      • don’t feel danger, but feel it’s worth bringing it up
      • for the application, could definitely help out writing the justification, it’s not just things we imagined, but things we have data on, a couple of paragraphs on that
      • in real implementation of features, not sure if we need much more research, not sure if I have energy to ask the groups, e.g. how would they imagine a poll
    • Bruno:
      • don’t see it as being very development/nick-centric, and don’t think it should be, there is a lot we supporting work, and design
      • looking at the 3, the one that needs less thought or research is the polls, then sanctions we we discussed a lot, although still need a lot of design there, where to initiative them, etc… last would be custom group roles and permission system, a huge area to explore there
      • could even involve more people, from the community, from the groups, maybe some quick sessions to work on it, see who is interested
      • going back to more straight forward one… thinking of the polls, could be dynamic work, if nick starts working, will come up with questions, sketches, … a little process that we can all engage in as a team
      • custom group roles and permission system, could even do a more elaborate design session on it
      • up for that, interested in the topics, all of them, depends on what others want to do, and how we co-ordinate, nathalie has shown interest for custom roles, big overlap with sociocracy
      • some async design sessions for them, can see myself involved in the work
    • Nathalie:
      • also think there is a lot of room for group feedback processes
      • as nick is mainly pushing it, how would I approach it, e.g. the sprint patterns. we noticed different sizes of the sprint. community design process. we had done a rather short one, with us gathering ideas, open for feedback, but not waiting for it, still a good framework to progress a feature. particularly in the beginning there is a lot of space to think together, and limitations of what is possible to implement in the code, and later gets narrowed down.
      • not too worried about it
      • 3 points are like a committment of the things we’d like to focus on and progress
      • drifted off thinking about my own interested in technology and social things, noticing that I’d like to be more technical, helping groups organised, those parts covered in sociocracy work. wondering what is the role of software? would rather get more involved in the logic of the software, not so much the social parts of it. so wondering about my place. doesn’t mean the application to stop.
    • Nick:
      • a lot of support but how to make it tangible, make it into tasks?
      • a bit of frustration on how to give birth to everything we’ve been thinking about
      • maybe application is not fully aligned with our way of working, our processes, like pushing now for what to put in the application
      • could do something with the input given so far, would like to have something tangible but will be a bit explorative
    • Consent round
      • Vas: object, open question from nick about who is willing to do what, suggestion would be to keep user research to a minimum, but maybe still as a task, so it’s one of the steps, so gives a balance, prior work we did, e.g. interpretation of data we collected already, so maybe design sessions are between the 4 of us, then nick and tilmann take over and do the development
      • Bruno: consent, to use that pad as a basis, if I understand it correctly, not as a ready application, but as a basis for how to proceed
      • Nathalie: wondering if there is an implication for myself, or something I need to commit to, seems like nick, and others are motivated enough, so consent.
      • Nick: object. wouwoullsd like clearer understanding of what I’m putting in the application about others involvement. looking for support from others to formulate this other non-dev-specific stuff.
      • Bruno: able to follow up and input
      • Vas: up for formualting it together
      • Nathalie: wouldn’t commit to a task, so count me out, might participate in design sessions as they come up
    • new consent round with mods
      • Vas: consent
      • Bruno: consent
      • Nathalie: consent
      • Nick: consent
  • connecting with likeminded initiatives [E]
    • someone that joined: “WhatsCookin, now doing decentralized trust under cooperation.org, interested in how you guys are doing things”
  • bonfire, mutual advisors? [E]
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • Nick and Vas to proceed on Overview - HedgeDoc with support from Bruno
    • start in co-working tomorrow

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout
31

Date: 2023-08-08 meet.jit.si/karrot
Facilitator: Joe
Minutes:
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick

1. Opening

  • 10 min Check in
  • 5 min ADMIN
    • attendance (write down participants)
    • duration: 1h total
    • information: any (non-karrot) announcements? unavailabilities?
    • next meeting:
      • next Wednesday co-working: yes!
      • next Tuesday general: yes!
    • pick facilitator for next week: hopefully Vas

2. Consent to agenda

  • 2 min

3. Review last week’s Actions/Outcomes

  • Nick and Vas to proceed on Overview - HedgeDoc with support from Bruno
    • start in co-working tomorrow

4. Discussion points

  • foodsharing czech email and again
    • Nathalie: looking for someone to reply
    • Nick: I just write the code man
    • → Bruno will reply
  • tech updates
  • how was the meeting with FOSC [R]
  • connecting with likeminded initiatives [E]
    • someone that joined: “WhatsCookin, now doing decentralized trust under cooperation.org, interested in how you guys are doing things”
    • how to create a more collaborative community network, not just siloed
    • doesn’t nercersaily mean working together on the same tool, what are the best approaches to create sense of connection and collaboration?
    • usually built on trust and interest, constant keeping in touch
    • how to build this trust and friendship
    • bonfire, hylo, others?
    • recognise diversity, with separate projects if it makes sense
    • many levels to co-operate, funding, design, concepts, exchanging knowledge and experience
    • bonfire, mutual advisors?
    • difficult to make networking substantial, easy to say to make network, but how to embed it
    • networks → federation across projects, mission, higher concepts
  • standing topic: check the board! [E]
  • standing topic: organizational structure [E]

5. Actions/Outcomes

  • answer e-mail Czech (Bruno)
  • read through notes of call with FOSC (Bruno)
  • karrot team to look at 2nd notes, about dimensions and proposal forming, and bring it to group discussion :slightly_smiling_face: (All)

6. Closing Ceremony

  • 10 min
  • checkout