goal is to make decisions together that support everyones needs
took learnings from NVC (Non Violent Communication) - going to needs level
from a thought → but something underlying that speaks to a need
have a proposal, and people have concerns, but go to underlying needs, and make statements about the underlying need
then get creative to see how we integrate this need
speak a lot about “considerations”, concern → consideration
prominent learning, when go to needs level, relatable needs, can get more shared and solved
avoiding to get stuck on the positions/ideological perspectives, where you can get into fights
one takeaway: not much about convergence/divergence… we actually diverged a lot, at the end had to work out where we go… takeaway was to allow the divergence if that’s where it’s going, letting it flow a bit
nick:
miki kashtan, lot of work in NVC field
overwhelmed with terminology
we need these types of processes
personally was a bit overwhelmed: what are the necessary pre-conditions?
having a trusted group with a shared intention
got a bit long discussion in the session
even if it goes very broad, facilitator can help with story telling and framing ‘this is really an important topic’, ‘this is a good basis for our next steps’
process and digital tools?, easily gets technocratic, point people to processes and websites, could use pad and videocall
Nathalie:
not super clear thoughts, did I enjoy it or not?
expected a bit more theory input, very practise oriented
lots of things have heard in other places
quite a complex case to facilitate (the example in the workshop with 20 people)
was also thinking about how to guide workshops, enjoyed the openness and practise space
but wasn’t so clear it would be practise space more, maybe could have used it more for that, didn’t speak and wonder why
big group vs small group, sociocracy encourages small groups and trust building
but here said you can do it with 80 or 300, as needs don’t scale up with people (as needs are shared/common)
different levels of thinking/decision making
can see how this technique could work with larger groups
personally, did notice nicks stress, attention was split, having the call and the pad (nick and nathalie wrote notes in a shared pad)
interesting how digital can support process… in the end it’s about people talking and making connections, what degree can software provide it?
Nick
strong facilitation, key role and shape the session, make decisions how to proceed
make decision without any discussion possible, e.g. check for objections/ concerns
being reminded of other times, example didn’t feel relatable
jay
sounds like an interesting session!
nlnet timeline extension?
made a coworking item!
Next:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
forum post on Bristol days - ongoing [vas]
start working on guidance document for ‘performance reviews’ [Nathalie, Vas]
more money admin: do tranfer and check expenses [Nick]
transfer money to karrot [Jay]
pad release party [Nathalie]
nick email eszter and nathalie [Nick]
get our head around nlnet tasks [coworking]
continue working on getting polls ready to merge [Nick]
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
forum post on Bristol days - ongoing [vas]
start working on guidance document for ‘performance reviews’ [Nathalie, Vas]
more money admin: do tranfer and check expenses [Nick]
done!
transfer money to karrot [Jay]
pad release party planning [Nathalie]
nick email eszter and nathalie [Nick]
yes!
get our head around nlnet tasks [coworking]
we did it! but nick didn’t email nlnet yet
continue working on getting polls ready to merge [Nick]
yes, progress! but still more, see updates
4. Discussion Points
updates
outage on sunday, Tilmann saved us
because of an automatic update on Redis. A restart on Karrot made it work again. Nick thinks about a way to solve it and make it more resilient, but not implementing that now
email issue
ongoing, still needs more investigation
polls
some details left to figure out
close to a merge!
update from last coworking
frontend and backend running now for Jay!
step by step approach
schedule next (design) session to focus on roles and permissions
Needs a topic and an artifact. Possible topic: prefiguration (prefigurative technology), maybe in connection to CSS. Possible artifact: Karrot
Butze, Leoni and Vas (if he wants) and whomever of us would like to be, ask Matt
Workshop will be hybrid
CHI will be in Yokohama, Japan at the end of April
Bruno: courios, will see if he has time to read and contribute.
Natalie: what does Philip need from us in this meeting? what will the workshop look like? Interested in the topic
Butze: get feedback, let you know and ask if Karrot can be the artifact
maybe not something we need to decide on, but anyhow all are fine with it.
a short discussion about double roles and keep this discussion for the future
Nick: lot of richness in the ambiguity about the roles of academia and activism. - Karrot in post-growth theme fits well. - curiosity at the sidelines. - if there is a session we can watch online.
Butze will draft something tomorrow at the co-working
money admin
updated amounts after lates money flow (see Karrot)
all clear, Nick approved Nathalie’s expense
share the responsibility so it’s not being a burden on the person thinking of it the most
not feelinglike a burden for now
question about Nick transfering from personal account
he did not look into it.
unsure about money situation in the near future when Nlnet money is over
reflection about OC’s design with the boxes showing what they think we should see, but not really interesting/relevant to us
Philip worked on this last co-working, seems good enough to make a workshop out of this
‘progressive interface’ wording, ‘Design for Incremental Appropriation (DIA)’ as another suggestion
politcal meaning of ‘progressive’
Reactions
likes DIA wording, broader context, not just the interface, appropriate technologies is a topic too, for us it’s about the interface, but could be seen broader
Philip as first author, Karrot team as a whole mentioned? or naming affiliation
terminology within a context, progressive enhancement in software (html, js), what is the context of the audience? would our karrot groups understand DIA
if it’s something academic and that’s the context, the term seems fine
meaningful and promising, also came up in conversation with Bountiful Bristol, guiding a group, how to build a group, develop a resource library, talk to people
progressive and music comes to my mind
how to make most out of it? Philip to continue working on this and getting feedback
not yet being practised but discussed, interface in a metaphoric sense
creating karrot together, how we produce software, getting engaged with the groups/ users and understanding them
how to the design the feature as part of the workshop?
will reach out once reading through it
appropriation in the context of cultural appropriation
likes idea of expanding interface
progressive and post-growth? Philip will go with DIA term but makes a note how karrot is using progressive interface
show karrot to the post-growth community, maybe meet new people/ contributors?
still happy about co-authors
Bruno: yes!
how we operate, take decisions, distribute money, mention this aswell? not only about the product but the process behind that, has many facets
add a sentence to describe our culture, not so easy to pin it down
statistics inconsistency
report from Daniel
Nathalie gave intro to the issue, statistic page and feedback tab on place
need to bring this topic into this call
recreate it? don’t have access to Luxembourg data
other type of data report, export data and customise report, long thread in karrot group
push problem to technical user in group
how to recreate the issue?
ask Daniel more?
rounding error
look into Warsaw group
query on statistic page is really complicated, but some work was put into this in the past
need to gain motivation to dig into this
find a time for Vas’ focus-‘performance review’ session
use a coworking session or general call
do a short general call and to performance review after
session to ask for feedback, structure borrowed from sociocracy
proposal: split next meeting in 2 parts, 1.5h in total
seems fine
Nathalie and Vas will prepare
Next:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas] II
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie] II
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie] II
forum post on Bristol days - ongoing [vas] II
start working on guidance document for ‘performance reviews’ [Nathalie, Vas] II
transfer money to karrot [Jay] II
pad release party planning [Nathalie] II
e-mail Nlnet [Nick] I
continue working on getting polls ready to merge [Nick] I
communicate with coop cloud about our payment [Nathalie] I-
continue working on sanctions design [Bruno]
vas do your invoices [Vas]
add a sentence to workshop paper [Bruno, Vas]
check own group to see if there’s inconsistency on statistic, add to board [Bruno]
Bruno: fine to me. 1st one is good, work on yourself, don’t feel very affected by that, its a nice action point, sharing negative feelings is better having a chat with Nathalie, came mostly from Nathalie, had also a feedback on what Nat meant, have a chat with Nat, keeping a balance to the personal and the project, its a matter of balance and group dynamics, writing CV of Karrot could be interesting and a video presentation could be good in general, CSS thing looks nice, we can just start with it, there is nothing stopping it to start it right away, regular updates that’s good, be clear on the status of what ur doing, that connects to the guilt feeling, not gonna happen (its on hold, abandon this or that). Welcome the feedback, one thing I was missing the appreciation toward following up with the groups, keeping up those connections, maybe incorporate that. So ther is a question of why this was left out? (time, motivation etc?)
Nick: putting the guilt in the fire, its good, embrace active motivation, no need to keep the guilt, ‘what is my motivation now’ is potentially helpful with that, agree with doom and gloom, like that wholeself approach, bruno’s point to remind that nathalie that is not quite what i meant, i d rather have u in the calls with doom and gloom, karrot also functions as a human connection thing as well, I m happy to have ppl to show up as humans, funding thing is very welcome, particularly considering that u got some insights from the academic world, would like to see a more ‘strategic’ approach on funding karrot, css thing and curious if it feels good or if u feel pressured on that, if there is a way to engage with it just now can be useful from ur ‘karrot’ point of view. if u get a position then its good, and a paper alike would be useful to have it. CSS been in limbo for long time, writing with people so didnt get a sense where we are at, is it gonna fall in the gaps?. Feedback on dev feautures this is where I d love more focus on, it a core part of what comes out of our discusssions, the tangible things, as soon as one thing is deployed then all comments/views/concerns come up, more proactive feedback can be useful and very welcome. Following up with groups is sth I see valuable.
vas:
didn’t leave out connecting with groups on purpose, need to make sure there is time/energy, can incorporate it as “intentions” plan, to work towards the direction
doom & gloom: was constructive what I heard from Nathalie, in two minds. not sure how good it is for me to verbalize stress, I know I can share it. maybe needed this advice. unsure how to proceed right now
guilt: comes from inability to have schedule/plan etc. don’t feel can contribute a lot, always in small amounts in this or that… can see how that sense can come contagious, happy to put it in the fire! or even pretend not to feel guilty … feels clearer to feel motivated to reach out to the academics, etc…
CSS: a bit hesitant, happy butze and matt and keen to work on it together. can’t change perspective that there is big difference between academic paper and trying it out in real life, cannot take on responsibility of it in karrot on my own. receptive to ideas of Just Trying It Out too.
feedback on using pad inside karrot
scroll was jumping up back to cursor, liked using it, opened it on mobile, everything sync’d ok, wondering how it works with copy and pasting, how to use it for next solikyl meeting? lots of open questions then, how to organise pads, put content into different places in karrot, etc.
karrot suite (like adobe suite), maybe could have an own pad in karrot to keep track of diary notes, @-mentions using full display name is quite long (for vas), great having pad
Nick: wanted a full screen, struggling a bit with my windows, unify one window where u got faces and pad and chat all together would be nice, the @mentions use the display name, the karrot suite/sweet I like, saw recently a all-in one productivity suite, all-in-one community organising tool would be a way forward?
write up summaries of the conversations I had (notes from last co-working with Eszter/ Bruno, key thoughts from chat with Nick, feedback from Daniel) and post on forum
collect all relevant links for rfp and ask someone to submit it
make improvements based on today’s feedback
clarify work on ‘Develop permissions system’
Reaction
Bruno: nice things
@ mentions is a nice touch
roles and the profile page
display of the roleholders at each place
connecting role to place: another way to do it would be that this role can be linked to a place, so when someone gets a role then they are prompted to connect the role to the place, will allow for some flexibility, would reduce the complexity possibly
newcomer role is not clear on the design what is the dif between that and member role
system roles: some kind of visual cue that they refer to system roles so you can distinguish them from the groups’ self-made roles
Nick:
I think its very nice, good idea to get Daniel feedback as well
members page could also show roles, but leave it for now
how does ‘approved’ role fit in? get rid of it? it’s a trust-based role. not many groups have it now
role in places: enabling role for each place vs blank mode (assign any place). board member example: board member of a store? store coordinator for not a store? there should be a store coordinator, even if not filled. Which roles are relevant for which places? Show vacancies.
complexity comes with roles at places, adding bureaucracy. Place list could be enormous for some groups
newcomer: anyone that doesn’t have another role (expect member). Maybe we don’t need it? shows green indicator when signing up for activities. There were reasons it was implemented
Vas:
design looks very elaborated, very happy with this
not much to add
approved role? how do we fit it in there. Adopt it to the new design.
Nathalie:
thank you for useful feedback and happy how it lands
makes sense to me to create the roles in the places
agree with the complexity
Consent round: on the proposal for roles, on the broad concept as presented by Nathalie
Bruno: I consent but not fully convinced of how display vacancies outweights the complexity added
Vasileios: I consent
Nick: I consent and note that further details can be refined
C&T= communities and technologies conference in siegen this summer
some updates/reflections/concerns
expecting paper to get accepted this time
some doubts around distinction between existing collaboration software production methods (e.g. open source)
bruno:
sounds worth elaborating the tom-ayto tom-aaaarto distinction
highighting differences between commons based peer production, etc.
perhaps difference between users and producers is bigger in other models, and expertise required
nice! curious to read a draft
nick:
from karrot perspective: we’re missing a model. Once we get a model we can start doing stuff! User participation, contribute money, how to meaningfully bring users in it
waiting period to get a model
paper and concept: focus on conference and what the academic world says
proceed with what karrot is doing, then academia can write about it
karrot-centered perspective: should we just proceed or wait for a concept?
for me concept is very distinct, e.g. open-source is not an economic model, it’s an capitalist term actually
CSS direct grass-roots vibe, out it into practise
keen to bring it in discourse with other people, wait till there is a paper/ open thing to share. E.g. gfsc
nathalie:
would benefit from another presentation, once have capacity
feel a bit bad not really reading through your work
maybe can bring it to the space, or co-working, and get head into it
not really sure about the academic discourse, or what the definitions are, so right now can’t really comment on the content level
agree with question of are we waiting for something to come out to start, or can we make our own sense of it, but would like to know what is out there already, and what is still missing, what would we need to define in terms of applying it
happy you’re still working on this!
nice to understand community driven things as subset of open source, and nice to bring it Matt with his community tech focus
is this conference in siegen relevant for karrot as a team?
vasilis:
good feedback
a bit of a division between what we say, and what the academics I need to reference are saying
I have to balance world of acadmics, e.g. post doc application, and can be valuable having something coming back for karrot that is peer-reviewed, and presented in a conference, and get some funding to pilot it in a project
different between frameworks and models, model is quite strict - take it and put it somewhere and it works. framework is more open and flexible, and have it’s own life in a project.
have a dictionary/lexicon at the end, and define key points and terms
discussions around local/hyper-local, heterogeneous/homogeneous
something to start building on, and other terms coming to support it, developing a language of communciation for how you can try out a framework
most pressing thing within Karrot would be money focused aspect
Bruno:
big topic!
never had a medium or long term strategy
have ideas, and worked on visioning, and what we’re doing on nlnet work
open question of what comes next
quite well aligned with purpose of karrot
framing it in global context and sociopolitical situation, how do we include that? important to be aware of where we’re heading and seeing challenges and opportunities
taking community organising seriously is one way to start
don’t think we need a very clear theory of change, nobody has that, maybe someone who wrote a book would, but world is in constant change
how do we connect the micro to the macro, in our digital tool project, and how we observe what is happening in the word, and how we connect to the different people and groups
where are we going with global change, and what is our little ecosystem, what kind of work do we want to do
how do we co-operate with groups doing this change, and be a piece of that puzzle
financial sustainability, CSS model
very tangible points, what are we working on next
worth jotting down some ideas
strategy as a plan for short/medium/long term, start drafting then bring it back again?
Dave:
in society now, a lot of people are not being heard, don’t feel they can participate
other side is the power of grassroots movements, and self-empowerde communities not much coming from NGOs
a big vision meeting with a lot of people from different grassroots groups, also outside of the karrot bubble
round of what people really feel
have a vision of tool that can grow organically from the communities that want to be self-empowered
simple tool, not too overwhelming
one of first traumas is school, against biological time
told we’re not good enough, have to study to be someone
as children we have adventure, and want to do missions, and experience the world
bringing in spirit of adventure into the tool, to really touch people
good to have big vision, maybe in combination with release party
then deep diving into the vision, what we really want and what it really needs
based on the vision a strategy can be established (what are the most prior steps to come closer to our vison?)
Nick:
lots of nice thoughts from the round
1 project sum of personal as we collaborate, personal: doing my bit, align my efforts with the problem, participate in something bigger through karrot, karrot to be about half of my work
2 connect through models of community organising, what can we do to support this, especially for new group e.g. access tor resources
3 other digital tools in the ecosystem, hylo, bonfire, how does karrot sit with does - too many tools?
mix of what we want to do and how we are going to do that, parts need to be well connected, what resources do we have
nice that the community cafe comes from the groups
release party comes from playful place for me, play with pads, etc. had a sense of friends-of-friends, familiar space, not a clear agenda or presentation focus
quiz, and to split up into small groups to get to know each other
thought to have it quite soon when the pads came out, then maybe bigger thing, end of nlnet funding, maybe tuesday evening slot
hesistant to merge it with another big thing to have a visioning thing
could imagine some written things, e.g. like a drawing of a tree that you can add things to, within the release party space, but a bit skeptical of making the event bigger
Dave
idea of opening it a bit, co-founded some movements, and see a lot of people looking for a tool
maybe don’t need to invite a big crowd, but maybe some representatives of them, to find out the state of karrot, and what does their group need, with format of notes and mindmapping
desire is there to experience what tools are there, especially with the nice features
Bruno
could be two very nice different kinds of events
makes sense to have release party focused on karrot users who are familiar with it, and attract their participation and curiosity, could engage in some discussion, bringing people together
use the opportunity if they come, to explore what is next now
then the other event, from Daves idea, would be very valuable to have new people, and outreach with new groups, and exploring digital tools
let’s use Daves connections, part of a strategy, reaching out to groups, presenting alternative digital tools, make people think
key people are the organisers, not the whole movement, but those interested in those questions
let’s plan something like that
Dave
have a karrot introduction meeting (with a better name), have different contact persons participants could follow up with (design, code)
vision meeting afterwards in a few months
Nick
release party and community engagement event as separate things, Nathalie and Dave each seem to have a vision
aligns with strategy
one model of organising (e.g. sociocracy) sets up their own instance and their home page is all about this
concentrate effort every 3 months, instead of every 2 weeks
relationship of hype and substance, ride the hype wave and land on the substance
engage with other tools makers, many connections ongoing, tool makers needs to collaborate
end of nlnet funding for relase party
What to do now?
Dave
vision meeting: story telling is helping me, we could tell some stories where karrot really helped us and with this story invite people to the vision meeting: let’s build this together with onboarding process in the end
offer: graphic for release party, template for agenda for vision meeting and graphic too
Nathalie
sense of having two events sounds good
could imagine focusing on the release party, and reach out to vasilis, and split the tasks into small groups
less interested in bringing the wider groups in
wondering about timings
Bruno
would be good to discuss this other kind of event further, setting a date, who to invite, etc.
Nick
motivated to wider outreach thing, start with something messy and see from there
works nice in a looser way than e.g. a design process
have date that doesn’t conflict with release party, maybe a months difference?
set a date once release party is set
Dave
have one month in between
Nathalie
start of June for release party seems good, celebration
more internal focus, than outreach communication thing
wondering if there are any feature dependencies?
continue coordination async on karrot
Dave to start on the agenda for vision event and present in 2 weeks
[Nathalie]
… feels clearer to feel motivated to reach out to the academics, etc…
