goal is to make decisions together that support everyones needs
took learnings from NVC (Non Violent Communication) - going to needs level
from a thought â but something underlying that speaks to a need
have a proposal, and people have concerns, but go to underlying needs, and make statements about the underlying need
then get creative to see how we integrate this need
speak a lot about âconsiderationsâ, concern â consideration
prominent learning, when go to needs level, relatable needs, can get more shared and solved
avoiding to get stuck on the positions/ideological perspectives, where you can get into fights
one takeaway: not much about convergence/divergence⌠we actually diverged a lot, at the end had to work out where we go⌠takeaway was to allow the divergence if thatâs where itâs going, letting it flow a bit
nick:
miki kashtan, lot of work in NVC field
overwhelmed with terminology
we need these types of processes
personally was a bit overwhelmed: what are the necessary pre-conditions?
having a trusted group with a shared intention
got a bit long discussion in the session
even if it goes very broad, facilitator can help with story telling and framing âthis is really an important topicâ, âthis is a good basis for our next stepsâ
process and digital tools?, easily gets technocratic, point people to processes and websites, could use pad and videocall
Nathalie:
not super clear thoughts, did I enjoy it or not?
expected a bit more theory input, very practise oriented
lots of things have heard in other places
quite a complex case to facilitate (the example in the workshop with 20 people)
was also thinking about how to guide workshops, enjoyed the openness and practise space
but wasnât so clear it would be practise space more, maybe could have used it more for that, didnât speak and wonder why
big group vs small group, sociocracy encourages small groups and trust building
but here said you can do it with 80 or 300, as needs donât scale up with people (as needs are shared/common)
different levels of thinking/decision making
can see how this technique could work with larger groups
personally, did notice nicks stress, attention was split, having the call and the pad (nick and nathalie wrote notes in a shared pad)
interesting how digital can support process⌠in the end itâs about people talking and making connections, what degree can software provide it?
Nick
strong facilitation, key role and shape the session, make decisions how to proceed
make decision without any discussion possible, e.g. check for objections/ concerns
being reminded of other times, example didnât feel relatable
jay
sounds like an interesting session!
nlnet timeline extension?
made a coworking item!
Next:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
forum post on Bristol days - ongoing [vas]
start working on guidance document for âperformance reviewsâ [Nathalie, Vas]
more money admin: do tranfer and check expenses [Nick]
transfer money to karrot [Jay]
pad release party [Nathalie]
nick email eszter and nathalie [Nick]
get our head around nlnet tasks [coworking]
continue working on getting polls ready to merge [Nick]
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas]
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie]
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie]
forum post on Bristol days - ongoing [vas]
start working on guidance document for âperformance reviewsâ [Nathalie, Vas]
more money admin: do tranfer and check expenses [Nick]
done!
transfer money to karrot [Jay]
pad release party planning [Nathalie]
nick email eszter and nathalie [Nick]
yes!
get our head around nlnet tasks [coworking]
we did it! but nick didnât email nlnet yet
continue working on getting polls ready to merge [Nick]
yes, progress! but still more, see updates
4. Discussion Points
updates
outage on sunday, Tilmann saved us
because of an automatic update on Redis. A restart on Karrot made it work again. Nick thinks about a way to solve it and make it more resilient, but not implementing that now
email issue
ongoing, still needs more investigation
polls
some details left to figure out
close to a merge!
update from last coworking
frontend and backend running now for Jay!
step by step approach
schedule next (design) session to focus on roles and permissions
Needs a topic and an artifact. Possible topic: prefiguration (prefigurative technology), maybe in connection to CSS. Possible artifact: Karrot
Butze, Leoni and Vas (if he wants) and whomever of us would like to be, ask Matt
Workshop will be hybrid
CHI will be in Yokohama, Japan at the end of April
Bruno: courios, will see if he has time to read and contribute.
Natalie: what does Philip need from us in this meeting? what will the workshop look like? Interested in the topic
Butze: get feedback, let you know and ask if Karrot can be the artifact
maybe not something we need to decide on, but anyhow all are fine with it.
a short discussion about double roles and keep this discussion for the future
Nick: lot of richness in the ambiguity about the roles of academia and activism. - Karrot in post-growth theme fits well. - curiosity at the sidelines. - if there is a session we can watch online.
Butze will draft something tomorrow at the co-working
money admin
updated amounts after lates money flow (see Karrot)
all clear, Nick approved Nathalieâs expense
share the responsibility so itâs not being a burden on the person thinking of it the most
not feelinglike a burden for now
question about Nick transfering from personal account
he did not look into it.
unsure about money situation in the near future when Nlnet money is over
reflection about OCâs design with the boxes showing what they think we should see, but not really interesting/relevant to us
Philip worked on this last co-working, seems good enough to make a workshop out of this
âprogressive interfaceâ wording, âDesign for Incremental Appropriation (DIA)â as another suggestion
politcal meaning of âprogressiveâ
Reactions
likes DIA wording, broader context, not just the interface, appropriate technologies is a topic too, for us itâs about the interface, but could be seen broader
Philip as first author, Karrot team as a whole mentioned? or naming affiliation
terminology within a context, progressive enhancement in software (html, js), what is the context of the audience? would our karrot groups understand DIA
if itâs something academic and thatâs the context, the term seems fine
meaningful and promising, also came up in conversation with Bountiful Bristol, guiding a group, how to build a group, develop a resource library, talk to people
progressive and music comes to my mind
how to make most out of it? Philip to continue working on this and getting feedback
not yet being practised but discussed, interface in a metaphoric sense
creating karrot together, how we produce software, getting engaged with the groups/ users and understanding them
how to the design the feature as part of the workshop?
will reach out once reading through it
appropriation in the context of cultural appropriation
likes idea of expanding interface
progressive and post-growth? Philip will go with DIA term but makes a note how karrot is using progressive interface
show karrot to the post-growth community, maybe meet new people/ contributors?
still happy about co-authors
Bruno: yes!
how we operate, take decisions, distribute money, mention this aswell? not only about the product but the process behind that, has many facets
add a sentence to describe our culture, not so easy to pin it down
statistics inconsistency
report from Daniel
Nathalie gave intro to the issue, statistic page and feedback tab on place
need to bring this topic into this call
recreate it? donât have access to Luxembourg data
other type of data report, export data and customise report, long thread in karrot group
push problem to technical user in group
how to recreate the issue?
ask Daniel more?
rounding error
look into Warsaw group
query on statistic page is really complicated, but some work was put into this in the past
need to gain motivation to dig into this
find a time for Vasâ focus-âperformance reviewâ session
use a coworking session or general call
do a short general call and to performance review after
session to ask for feedback, structure borrowed from sociocracy
proposal: split next meeting in 2 parts, 1.5h in total
seems fine
Nathalie and Vas will prepare
Next:
opencollective (linking opencollective and karrot instance) [vas]
5. Actions and Outcomes
rework from scratch agreement related to data interventions [vas] II
write follow up about CSS on forum post [Nathalie] II
sit down and think what to do after Bristol personally [Nathalie] II
forum post on Bristol days - ongoing [vas] II
start working on guidance document for âperformance reviewsâ [Nathalie, Vas] II
transfer money to karrot [Jay] II
pad release party planning [Nathalie] II
e-mail Nlnet [Nick] I
continue working on getting polls ready to merge [Nick] I
communicate with coop cloud about our payment [Nathalie] I-
continue working on sanctions design [Bruno]
vas do your invoices [Vas]
add a sentence to workshop paper [Bruno, Vas]
check own group to see if thereâs inconsistency on statistic, add to board [Bruno]
Bruno: fine to me. 1st one is good, work on yourself, donât feel very affected by that, its a nice action point, sharing negative feelings is better having a chat with Nathalie, came mostly from Nathalie, had also a feedback on what Nat meant, have a chat with Nat, keeping a balance to the personal and the project, its a matter of balance and group dynamics, writing CV of Karrot could be interesting and a video presentation could be good in general, CSS thing looks nice, we can just start with it, there is nothing stopping it to start it right away, regular updates thatâs good, be clear on the status of what ur doing, that connects to the guilt feeling, not gonna happen (its on hold, abandon this or that). Welcome the feedback, one thing I was missing the appreciation toward following up with the groups, keeping up those connections, maybe incorporate that. So ther is a question of why this was left out? (time, motivation etc?)
Nick: putting the guilt in the fire, its good, embrace active motivation, no need to keep the guilt, âwhat is my motivation nowâ is potentially helpful with that, agree with doom and gloom, like that wholeself approach, brunoâs point to remind that nathalie that is not quite what i meant, i d rather have u in the calls with doom and gloom, karrot also functions as a human connection thing as well, I m happy to have ppl to show up as humans, funding thing is very welcome, particularly considering that u got some insights from the academic world, would like to see a more âstrategicâ approach on funding karrot, css thing and curious if it feels good or if u feel pressured on that, if there is a way to engage with it just now can be useful from ur âkarrotâ point of view. if u get a position then its good, and a paper alike would be useful to have it. CSS been in limbo for long time, writing with people so didnt get a sense where we are at, is it gonna fall in the gaps?. Feedback on dev feautures this is where I d love more focus on, it a core part of what comes out of our discusssions, the tangible things, as soon as one thing is deployed then all comments/views/concerns come up, more proactive feedback can be useful and very welcome. Following up with groups is sth I see valuable.
vas:
didnât leave out connecting with groups on purpose, need to make sure there is time/energy, can incorporate it as âintentionsâ plan, to work towards the direction
doom & gloom: was constructive what I heard from Nathalie, in two minds. not sure how good it is for me to verbalize stress, I know I can share it. maybe needed this advice. unsure how to proceed right now
guilt: comes from inability to have schedule/plan etc. donât feel can contribute a lot, always in small amounts in this or that⌠can see how that sense can come contagious, happy to put it in the fire! or even pretend not to feel guilty ⌠feels clearer to feel motivated to reach out to the academics, etcâŚ
CSS: a bit hesitant, happy butze and matt and keen to work on it together. canât change perspective that there is big difference between academic paper and trying it out in real life, cannot take on responsibility of it in karrot on my own. receptive to ideas of Just Trying It Out too.
feedback on using pad inside karrot
scroll was jumping up back to cursor, liked using it, opened it on mobile, everything syncâd ok, wondering how it works with copy and pasting, how to use it for next solikyl meeting? lots of open questions then, how to organise pads, put content into different places in karrot, etc.
karrot suite (like adobe suite), maybe could have an own pad in karrot to keep track of diary notes, @-mentions using full display name is quite long (for vas), great having pad
Nick: wanted a full screen, struggling a bit with my windows, unify one window where u got faces and pad and chat all together would be nice, the @mentions use the display name, the karrot suite/sweet I like, saw recently a all-in one productivity suite, all-in-one community organising tool would be a way forward?
write up summaries of the conversations I had (notes from last co-working with Eszter/ Bruno, key thoughts from chat with Nick, feedback from Daniel) and post on forum
collect all relevant links for rfp and ask someone to submit it
make improvements based on todayâs feedback
clarify work on âDevelop permissions systemâ
Reaction
Bruno: nice things
@ mentions is a nice touch
roles and the profile page
display of the roleholders at each place
connecting role to place: another way to do it would be that this role can be linked to a place, so when someone gets a role then they are prompted to connect the role to the place, will allow for some flexibility, would reduce the complexity possibly
newcomer role is not clear on the design what is the dif between that and member role
system roles: some kind of visual cue that they refer to system roles so you can distinguish them from the groupsâ self-made roles
Nick:
I think its very nice, good idea to get Daniel feedback as well
members page could also show roles, but leave it for now
how does âapprovedâ role fit in? get rid of it? itâs a trust-based role. not many groups have it now
role in places: enabling role for each place vs blank mode (assign any place). board member example: board member of a store? store coordinator for not a store? there should be a store coordinator, even if not filled. Which roles are relevant for which places? Show vacancies.
complexity comes with roles at places, adding bureaucracy. Place list could be enormous for some groups
newcomer: anyone that doesnât have another role (expect member). Maybe we donât need it? shows green indicator when signing up for activities. There were reasons it was implemented
Vas:
design looks very elaborated, very happy with this
not much to add
approved role? how do we fit it in there. Adopt it to the new design.
Nathalie:
thank you for useful feedback and happy how it lands
makes sense to me to create the roles in the places
agree with the complexity
Consent round: on the proposal for roles, on the broad concept as presented by Nathalie
Bruno: I consent but not fully convinced of how display vacancies outweights the complexity added
Vasileios: I consent
Nick: I consent and note that further details can be refined
C&T= communities and technologies conference in siegen this summer
some updates/reflections/concerns
expecting paper to get accepted this time
some doubts around distinction between existing collaboration software production methods (e.g. open source)
bruno:
sounds worth elaborating the tom-ayto tom-aaaarto distinction
highighting differences between commons based peer production, etc.
perhaps difference between users and producers is bigger in other models, and expertise required
nice! curious to read a draft
nick:
from karrot perspective: weâre missing a model. Once we get a model we can start doing stuff! User participation, contribute money, how to meaningfully bring users in it
waiting period to get a model
paper and concept: focus on conference and what the academic world says
proceed with what karrot is doing, then academia can write about it
karrot-centered perspective: should we just proceed or wait for a concept?
for me concept is very distinct, e.g. open-source is not an economic model, itâs an capitalist term actually
CSS direct grass-roots vibe, out it into practise
keen to bring it in discourse with other people, wait till there is a paper/ open thing to share. E.g. gfsc
nathalie:
would benefit from another presentation, once have capacity
feel a bit bad not really reading through your work
maybe can bring it to the space, or co-working, and get head into it
not really sure about the academic discourse, or what the definitions are, so right now canât really comment on the content level
agree with question of are we waiting for something to come out to start, or can we make our own sense of it, but would like to know what is out there already, and what is still missing, what would we need to define in terms of applying it
happy youâre still working on this!
nice to understand community driven things as subset of open source, and nice to bring it Matt with his community tech focus
is this conference in siegen relevant for karrot as a team?
vasilis:
good feedback
a bit of a division between what we say, and what the academics I need to reference are saying
I have to balance world of acadmics, e.g. post doc application, and can be valuable having something coming back for karrot that is peer-reviewed, and presented in a conference, and get some funding to pilot it in a project
different between frameworks and models, model is quite strict - take it and put it somewhere and it works. framework is more open and flexible, and have itâs own life in a project.
have a dictionary/lexicon at the end, and define key points and terms
discussions around local/hyper-local, heterogeneous/homogeneous
something to start building on, and other terms coming to support it, developing a language of communciation for how you can try out a framework
most pressing thing within Karrot would be money focused aspect
Bruno:
big topic!
never had a medium or long term strategy
have ideas, and worked on visioning, and what weâre doing on nlnet work
open question of what comes next
quite well aligned with purpose of karrot
framing it in global context and sociopolitical situation, how do we include that? important to be aware of where weâre heading and seeing challenges and opportunities
taking community organising seriously is one way to start
donât think we need a very clear theory of change, nobody has that, maybe someone who wrote a book would, but world is in constant change
how do we connect the micro to the macro, in our digital tool project, and how we observe what is happening in the word, and how we connect to the different people and groups
where are we going with global change, and what is our little ecosystem, what kind of work do we want to do
how do we co-operate with groups doing this change, and be a piece of that puzzle
financial sustainability, CSS model
very tangible points, what are we working on next
worth jotting down some ideas
strategy as a plan for short/medium/long term, start drafting then bring it back again?
Dave:
in society now, a lot of people are not being heard, donât feel they can participate
other side is the power of grassroots movements, and self-empowerde communities not much coming from NGOs
a big vision meeting with a lot of people from different grassroots groups, also outside of the karrot bubble
round of what people really feel
have a vision of tool that can grow organically from the communities that want to be self-empowered
simple tool, not too overwhelming
one of first traumas is school, against biological time
told weâre not good enough, have to study to be someone
as children we have adventure, and want to do missions, and experience the world
bringing in spirit of adventure into the tool, to really touch people
good to have big vision, maybe in combination with release party
then deep diving into the vision, what we really want and what it really needs
based on the vision a strategy can be established (what are the most prior steps to come closer to our vison?)
Nick:
lots of nice thoughts from the round
1 project sum of personal as we collaborate, personal: doing my bit, align my efforts with the problem, participate in something bigger through karrot, karrot to be about half of my work
2 connect through models of community organising, what can we do to support this, especially for new group e.g. access tor resources
3 other digital tools in the ecosystem, hylo, bonfire, how does karrot sit with does - too many tools?
mix of what we want to do and how we are going to do that, parts need to be well connected, what resources do we have
nice that the community cafe comes from the groups
release party comes from playful place for me, play with pads, etc. had a sense of friends-of-friends, familiar space, not a clear agenda or presentation focus
quiz, and to split up into small groups to get to know each other
thought to have it quite soon when the pads came out, then maybe bigger thing, end of nlnet funding, maybe tuesday evening slot
hesistant to merge it with another big thing to have a visioning thing
could imagine some written things, e.g. like a drawing of a tree that you can add things to, within the release party space, but a bit skeptical of making the event bigger
Dave
idea of opening it a bit, co-founded some movements, and see a lot of people looking for a tool
maybe donât need to invite a big crowd, but maybe some representatives of them, to find out the state of karrot, and what does their group need, with format of notes and mindmapping
desire is there to experience what tools are there, especially with the nice features
Bruno
could be two very nice different kinds of events
makes sense to have release party focused on karrot users who are familiar with it, and attract their participation and curiosity, could engage in some discussion, bringing people together
use the opportunity if they come, to explore what is next now
then the other event, from Daves idea, would be very valuable to have new people, and outreach with new groups, and exploring digital tools
letâs use Daves connections, part of a strategy, reaching out to groups, presenting alternative digital tools, make people think
key people are the organisers, not the whole movement, but those interested in those questions
letâs plan something like that
Dave
have a karrot introduction meeting (with a better name), have different contact persons participants could follow up with (design, code)
vision meeting afterwards in a few months
Nick
release party and community engagement event as separate things, Nathalie and Dave each seem to have a vision
aligns with strategy
one model of organising (e.g. sociocracy) sets up their own instance and their home page is all about this
concentrate effort every 3 months, instead of every 2 weeks
relationship of hype and substance, ride the hype wave and land on the substance
engage with other tools makers, many connections ongoing, tool makers needs to collaborate
end of nlnet funding for relase party
What to do now?
Dave
vision meeting: story telling is helping me, we could tell some stories where karrot really helped us and with this story invite people to the vision meeting: letâs build this together with onboarding process in the end
offer: graphic for release party, template for agenda for vision meeting and graphic too
Nathalie
sense of having two events sounds good
could imagine focusing on the release party, and reach out to vasilis, and split the tasks into small groups
less interested in bringing the wider groups in
wondering about timings
Bruno
would be good to discuss this other kind of event further, setting a date, who to invite, etc.
Nick
motivated to wider outreach thing, start with something messy and see from there
works nice in a looser way than e.g. a design process
have date that doesnât conflict with release party, maybe a months difference?
set a date once release party is set
Dave
have one month in between
Nathalie
start of June for release party seems good, celebration
more internal focus, than outreach communication thing
wondering if there are any feature dependencies?
continue coordination async on karrot
Dave to start on the agenda for vision event and present in 2 weeks
âMy practices have included meditation, somatics, visionary fiction, facilitation, working out, yoga, intimate community on social media, check ins with woes/buddies, orgasmic meditation, sex, self-documentation (self-love selfies! Learning to see beauty and power in my standard breaking appearance), sugar shifting, sabbatical (big one in 2012, annual mini-sabbaticals since then), poetry, unscheduled time, moon-cycle rituals, tarot (I am such a fan of this practice that I have bought five other people tarot decks), sage and frankincense cleansing of my home, journaling. I love intentional periods of practice, daily practices, new practices, and even outgrowing practices.â
DEI question: So-called Tech, and the services it produces and provides, are often not inclusive, neither in terms of human diversity nor equity (DEI). How Karrot address those issues? [Nathalie]
one of the last interview questions
did prepare an answer, but interested to hear input from us
invitation to do round
Bruno
big tech hiring policies?
DEI very much part of north American discussion
karrot is community-driven, not a for-profit model
equity and diversity are values we include
internal discussions how we organise
better in terms of features? something to think about
Nick
which context are they asking from?
refine context to USA
donât like discussing it in that framing
distinguish between karrot & groups that use karrot & features of karrot
we still operate in usual privileged lefty culture
you have to have spare time/ social net etc to contribute
reduces diversity due to economic privilege
cultural aspects are difficult
donât think we do address these issues
potential of organising in a community driven way
run up against block: very constraint project
trying to do the best we can, not solving all the problems but also not claiming to do so
Philip
karrot is trying, but with limited resources
example: playground to try out things
intermediaries/ people from groups, they can come to this meeting if they want to
discuss ideas like karrot days/ CSS
need more resources to make karrot even further participatory
Nathalie
Within the team we established practises to make sure everyone is heard. Each meeting we start with a check-in round and end with a check-out. Generally I advocate for rounds, making sure everyone has a chance to speak. Same applies to how we make decisions, which in our case is by consent. However, there is much more to be done!
For me itâs an interplay between personal development and collective processes, which eventually transfer into the product (software). My own journey started from an environmental perspective via queer and feminist ideas through to intersectional approaches. In the team, whenever a topic became alive for us, I loved the emerging conversations, be it around how we think of care within the project or destructing a sense of urgency as a facet of white supremacy. The latter influenced our way of approaching work and funding deadlines! As a project we would certainly benefit from making our intentions and commitments more explicit and actively include more voices, which we currently donât represent.
Bruno
reply looks good
donât care if any of the other point get included
good topic to reflect on
buzz words/ very US influenced
nice to hear positive examples!
Nick
appreciated treatment of topic
cooperate DEI thing much reduced version
culture of learning as another important practice
liked text too! was rich!
Philip
liked âIâ perspective in text, made it personal and talking from experience
Nathalie
will send it more-or-less as it is
would be interesting to explore further on these topics, and different aspects of diversity
also having some nice exchanges with the interviewer outside the framing of the questions
came to mind, somebody applied to a group that wanted to try it out for a CSA project, but canât find the application
would be really interesting to see if that could happen
maybe places need more clarity, can be a bit confusing, can be physical places with a dot on the map and address, have activities and wall for that place
but can be a âvirtual placeâ, for meetings
guess for CSA there would be one physical place, and maybe some virtual places
places a bit like slack or discord channels/rooms
activities feature makes a lot of sense
Nathalie:
would love it so much if the CSA would start with karrot
maybe can gentle advocate for it
thinking about bountiful bristol project too, getting to know each other, doing some co-sessions, and providing some guiding
capacity from design workshop could be very useful
in my mind could work nicely
could be handy having a partner who is good with software, and team up, find people that know karrot quite well, to explore how it could be used
one wish is for karrot to get a bit more attention
doug shared some open source software for CSAs, software from luneburg, can book a call for a demo
âtapirâ is an open source software and is based on the member management software of Supercoop Berlin eG. It was developed in 2022 together with WirGarten e.V. & WirGarten LĂźneburg eG and has been used in the latter since 2023. In 2025, the program will be further developed together with Biotop Oberland eG and expanded to include important functions.
Tapir covers the entire membership, harvest contract and delivery management, as well as the sending of personalized newsletters and automated, member-specific mailings.
The program is designed for the legal forms of cooperative and association, but can also be used for other legal forms.
FoodCoopX, a non-profit system service provider led by Gerold Kirchner (SuperCoop Berlin eG) and Marcus Agthe (formerly WirGarten LĂźneburg eG and WirGarten e.V.), hosts the software, sets it up for the businesses and, as a professional partner, takes care of its maintenance and further development. Together with all users, the aim is to create a joint project for the entire ecosystem.
nick met german tech coop that will be developing foodcoops.net, which is co-op buying groups, so a bit different, but maybe worth throwing in there
would be interesting to understand the needs of a CSA, and what it would involve to build plugin for karrot, or connect to another platform which can show administractive CSA info inside karrot
juntagrico, some legal niggles around german entities registering, rather than swiss CSAs, vas can connect to juntagrico people
xavier sent edited version of the interview, everyone welcome to look at it
nathalie will see how it reads
xavier is in our Karrot Team group, so will try and invite them co-working for further chat
sent them karrot logo for the image to use, had discussed some options for using bristol photo and/or video call, but not convinced, feedback welcome, otherwise logo will be fine
bruno says it would be nice with some faces
security audit
basically finished, just waiting for their internal final review, and final report very soon
nick can start fixing shit already
accessibility audit
another nlnet task
work is ongoing, nathalie in contact with organiser
theyâre using playground group on karrot.world instance
a bunch of students will use that account and do some of their testing
mutual support between software projects, infrastructure sharing is good tangible thing
what can they offer? contributing costs/ money
many free plans go down in emails and get expensive
we seem to have good deliverability
focus on the term of the test
draft agreement together with inventaire to allow to conduct a test within karrot, possibility to expand into infrastructure sharing agreement â all consent!
next steps
Nick communicate with Maxime from inventaire
bring back to Karrot call
Questions
Bruno: Do they have a policy about sending emails? Could be a risk to karrot if they are very spamming.
Postal has some features e.g. donât keep sending emails if delivery fails
being good email citizens
follow-up question about email confirmation in a newsletter context, karrot is a bit different here
would work for their group, some ideas for improvements too (in bold on the pad)
Jay hopes that it will also help improve transparency, since at the moment the current sanction processes looks improvable from an outsider perspective
Jay hopes to discuss it in the future (maybe during a coworking? Bruno: we can talk! Jay: yay, Whey: hey!)
need a closer look, Nick engaged with gfsc before, now this is more about Karrot engaging
thought maybe supporter model, professionals seems unlikely
interesting how they do it, maybe can come back it to
Bruno
same page as Nathalie, check it out a little bit more, understand it
initial reaction, that amount of money (professionals, ÂŁ500/year) is not suitable for us
also feedback for them, what is their financial model, what do they do with the money? if itâs a community why is the money involved? people doing specific work to keep the community alive?
could make sense contributing yearly
would be happy if we had more money and could share it
waiting for inspiration for doing polls documentation, thinking to do that soon
conversation about creating distraction free space (?) - given nick (especially) has a lot of work to do, maybe could help in not opening up new big topics or parallel things⌠define april/may as more focused work months, e.g. could have fewer meetings, and being aware itâs not the time to open up big conversations
also question about money and nick
Bruno:
wondering about my part, and maybe having a deadline to have it done completely, assuming nick starts as soon as roles is done
plan is to get 1 or 2 more bits of feedback, e.g. kranti, also joachim
couple of weeks hopefully, travelling at end of april
should check in with Vasilis for his tasks
distraction-free space is a nice idea, focus mode!
Nick:
feeling the crunch, doing talk and other things until end of May
but can get things done while focused!
get features ready
general awareness: is there the capacity to have it (a big topic) hold? a wall post could help
not sure what it means for myself, but not too bad
wouldnât propose any changes
would be lots of movement in next couple of months, when we see what we get done, check in after nlnet pieces
think a bit about what we do longer term
Bruno
how long will the money last with the current amounts? quick maths: about 10 months
comfortable with that, although itâs assuming weâll get all the nlnet money
should give us enough time to have calm discussions and organise
were also considering higher pay for nick, would still be happy to consider that
happy to continue with current amount, given donât see any prospective of finance crisis, otherwise could go lower if needed
after moving, will have quite expensive rent to pay
Nick
really nice if weâd get all the money from nlnet
short: make sure everyone has enough money (individuals & karrot); medium: 10 months/ 1 year; long-term: our own lives and karrot money
sending invoice was good
short and medium feel ok, main thing is thinking about longer term
no sudden panic, still some time to get into the long-term thinking - CSS thinking?
others from messages?
Vas
âI am happy to continue receiving the same monetary support from Karrot, even as I openly acknowledge my recent low level of direct contributions to the project"
Jay
Sticking around hoping one day Karrot will replace their job
No money, please, thank you
Nathalie
top of raising nicks pay and nlnet task, would also be ok to kick out some optional things, but if he does them keep the money, but maybe seems a bit weird now - seeing the money circle as a base layer, and could see extra tasks as separate task-based work? just another thought
Nick:
thanks for the thought. No need now, it was more of a panic thing. Taking out the money now is a zero-sum game
could also look at money agreement and the questions, but that is bonus
nah, not now, we covered the important bits
set a term
first tuesday meeting in July (approx 3 months, so after the nlnet hard deadline)
need with CSA dealing with contract / member management / shopping kind of features
liked the agreements feature, rather than just a document in the nextcloud, so good for self-organising perspective
need for private spaces too, difference between the organising team and the wider group, e.g. dealing with contracts, payment info, personal data - could use two groups for that? or some kind of confidental space
also need for data storage, would they still need nextcloud?
perhaps a bit of a loose connection, butze is main connection, through academic network
starting wondering for whom karrot is a really good fit? donât want to convince people to use karrot, would it really fit their needs? would still end up with different pieces of software
sanctions progress
bruno
a couple more people to talk to, get feedback from, then bring to weekly meeting, and work out what we are deciding on it
jay
working on structure of the conflict item (continuing on coworking session on thursday)
frustrated part, how can we bring in Karrot as a player more? weâre mentioned⌠but⌠why not working with? just being a project on the side
relating to CSA stuff, how can we as a team put effort into networking, bringing us into spaces⌠we are good at building strong relationships once we do, but still feel niche and on the side
still feeling quite small in terms of users and groups
wondering if Karrot and CSA is really such a good fit
not all bad!
have strategy calls upcoming! so can keep some of this for then
jay
see the new public website has a âpick a platformâ section, but mentions facebook etc, not karrot
can see creating a credential/certificate for trust could be interesting
nathalie:
find it difficult to relate to this technology-oriented dreams, donât quite get it when looking into web3 things
seem like big visions, and yay⌠find it difficult to get into this thinking
some scepticism about technology dream
if there is a bigger idea and Karrot can participate by supporting a verifiable community thing, could be nice, but not sure it exists yet
appreciate bringing it in, like not to put technology first
bruno:
see it with some curiosity, I would bet it would disappear within a year
would be interesting if there is some real use cases
idea is you can verify your identity in terms of which communities you belong to, to give trust in other settings
seems hard to evaluate as nothing yet done, no usable app
nick
appreciate healthy scepticism
likes to be open to ideas, get community organising on another level
what is the relation between that way of thinking (not only tech dream) to a body of practise - dialog! we engage more with academia
groups using other tools in parallel (like whatsapp)
would be interesting to explore why groups that use Karrot still use other applications, e.g. WhatsApp
personally donât use Meta products, so a personal frustration (jay)
would be good to know what is missing in Karrot to become the only platform a group can use
seems to go against the purpose of the work put into building Karrot
Bruno:
share same frustration, seen it happening
perhaps about having a quick communication channel, but not sure
people using WhatsApp and Facebook messenger
maybe a bit confused about Karrot notifications, not being a quick app for communicating
could have a broader exploration of other tools that a group uses
Nathalie:
coming back to the app decision - moving out of playstore, and focus on PWA (Progressive Web App)
personally very desktop oriented, but realise people often use mobile
maybe could put more focus into the app-part of Karrot, how to get it? how is it working?
see need for quick communication
seems not to easy to just âget karrot on your phoneâ
thinking about CSA people, parents, etc⌠complexity of software, for what use cases is it really good for⌠easy communication is perhaps not the best aspect of it
Nick:
sometimes shares frustration around big companies, but tries not to put too much pressure on people
hybrid use is a valid use case, even though ideologically against
We donât want to sacrifice the local initiatives for the sake of our appâs success
Worries about receiving notifications (which by default are not enabled and can otherwise be overwhelming)
This issue can evolve into a strategy to make a more user-friendly UX
Integration with other apps (e.g. Telegram) could be feasible.
Telegram relatively easy
WhatsApp makes it a bit more complicated
x2 could have a broader exploration of other tools that a group uses
Bruno:
this topic, and the outreach one, touches on discussions on strategy conversations, nice to document it, keep it in a nice little box to be able to open it up when weâre ready
connected with a busy Siegen researcher: Marius Rommel, researcher with Niko Paech
in practical terms might be able to learn how Karrot can be useful in other contexts other than saving food
Manuel studied plural economics at Siegen
they want to found a Solawi in the next year
starting a food co-op to bring members in
members want to have a central organization, and some want self-organisation vibe (didnât 100% get the point)
they have some land with a farmer store, discussion about that
regarding software, very small at the moment, need member management software, and store management software
using basecamp and mattermost tools at the moment, no polls on mattermost
really like the agreements on Karrot, as they have sociocracy background
do they need a tool to store data
Nathalie was very helpful presenting Karrot
Manuel will bring it to their Solawi, and then discuss/see how things are going
also, got an email from Tapir/foodcoopx tool, asking about connections with them and Junagrico, and connecting with KarrotâŚ. etcâŚ. further update forthcoming! coming soon here!
Questions/ Reactions: General features (communicate/ store data) etc vs technical detailed features custom for a context. If we had a plugin system going, people could self-host and use plugins (e.g. via API). Could refine in strategy work. CSA recommendation from us?
Bruno:
idea, applying for funding to add plugin to add appropriate features (CSA plugin)
investigating tools for community currency, working with cyclos tool, trying to develop a basic frontend, would be nice to have a plugin to talk to cyclos API, or something, plugin for community currency
Nick
dreaming of software architectures: package up tools without interface, projects will make own front-end, you will have the engine of a tool
could connect with community currency tools
foodcoop: my understanding of it is like a buying club - is it the right sense?
Butze & Nathalie: yes!
applying to funding to add a plugin, German local funding sources?
Summary of the Sharing FoodTour Concept (Foodsharing.de related):
1. Goals:
The Sharing FoodTour through various foodsharing districts has five main goals:
Listening to the needs, challenges, and wishes of local groups.
Understanding the values guiding each district and how both the digital platform and offline activities support them.
Connecting districts to foster a sense of belonging to a larger, supportive movement.
Sharing knowledge from and with different districts through talks and workshops.
Doing by encouraging local groups to apply and further develop successful practices and engage in shaping the platform.
2. Key Topics:
The tour focuses on crucial themes for foodsharingâs future, such as:
Democratic decision-making
Fair food and task distribution
Community building
Sustainable food systems
Participatory platform development
3. Activities in Districts:
Public events (e.g., talks, cooking sessions) and internal workshops for active Foodsavers are planned. Districts receive support for promotion, and there will also be space for personal conversations.
4. District Selection:
The tour aims to include a diverse range of districts (urban/rural, established/new, peaceful/conflict-prone), recognizing the unique strengths and learnings each one offers.
5. Travel & Accommodation:
The team will travel by train and bike, preferring to stay with local Foodsavers, or alternatively in hostels or tents. Districts wonât bear any additional costs.
6. Documentation & Outreach:
The team will document the journey with photos, videos, and stories, in collaboration with foodsharingâs social media team. Insights will also be used for future academic work.
7. Timeline:
The tour starts in summer 2025, with an initial phase from June 12â26, visiting each district for 2â4 days. It will continue through summer and fall 2025.
round:
Bruno:
cool! nice to hear
made me think of project in Autumn we start with Foodsharing Sweden, would be lots of lessons and insights to share that would be valuable, looking forward to following
Nathalie:
sounds nice!
was looking at Karrot map, maybe a story about groups that separated from foodsharing and now use Karrot? around Essen/Frankfurt/ NĂźrnberg, could be interesting how those groups came to use Karrot
theme might be coming to Karrot and sharing learnings
Nick:
sounds nice! very fruitful to give time to these stories
karrot related thoughts: karrot version of it? much larger area, less cohesion
useful insights for foodsharing Poland? also coming from fs Sweden
âmore then pick-up machinesâ is what I found interesting, wider social transformation. Bridge between vision and operational, daily work
is there a network, confederation between all these projects? thinking in a post-apocalyptic sense
even larger movement then foodsharing
AI feedback: I get more out of it when talking and taking notes, looks very shiny
Butze
very interesting to look into the karrot groups too! what is the store there
stay at sharing point and take offers from foodsavers e.g. meet over breakfast, get random insights
Anton really engaged with foodsharing at the moment
2026 as the year for a karrot tour? planting a seed here
Nick
have a dev chat with Anton! would be nice
nlnet update/ check-in
Bruno:
pushing for people to do sanctions feedback
incorporating feedback into the sanctions design
is a deadline needed?
Nathalie:
will work on sanctions feedback this week
outstanding task is documentation for polls
security audit is done, do we need to wrap up and say thank you? how is the state of coding?
havenât heard back from accessibility people yetâŚ
Nick:
extension of deadline feels good
working on roles now, touching lot of code
permissions come next, would be likely less work
sanctions is a worry for me, very involved feature, reduced version (maybe, maybe not)
schedule my days and see how many days Iâve got for work
security: did implement some things, wonât take too long to do rest, post-pone now
accessibility: wait till get back, maybe even after June
focus declaration, structure time vs ongoing work e.g. bringing on Wilhelm: how to balance that
nlnet communication
declined pad-work
swap instance options vs cascading group options: submit what you done and it will be fine, ready to be done!
thinking of cases of communities that could use Karrot
touching on the strategy stuff
malleable toolbox
tech that meets tangible needs
invitation to dream in the future!
vas
makerspace going really well, whatsapp group when being away and keep each other updated, would be happy to use karrot for that, thinking about progressive user interface
safe guarding mechanisms for groups, value and growth of a community project
producing data what community organising is doing, measure outcomes
nathalie:
not so much in dreamy space at the moment
discussion in CSA/tapir chat, whether people want self-organising culture, so thinking about education about self-organisation, sociocracy, etc.
and personal development aspect, how do I see myself in the world, active participants who can shape things (and be shaped by the world?)
moving away from consumerism involves a lot of education, how to get people into this space?
although quite a bit of self-organising still existing in normal society, e.g. pooling some money to buy something, a way to learn from these?
when more in dreamy space, would really like to find a way to have an approach to technology that is different to mainstream rational male approach, can technology be something different? can it be emotional and connecting? what is our outreach? which groups to we reach out to? maybe there are other groups with a lot of enthusiasm and alignment, but not sure what they are? what about queer/feminist spaces? potential to connect
Nick:
enthusiastic of both of your input.
maybe they come through sociocracy, academic connection, some otherâŚ
there is a suite of option, not options,
suite of governance, community organising
start with a broader mindset and then the tool makes sense (e.g., start with sociocracy as a model for dec-making) which ties with the train/education model Nathalie noted.
âconceptâ/organising model first - features after
Jay:
in touch with a local queer org and wondering whatâs missing in Karrot for me to endorse it for their own community.
Maybe no functionalities are actually missing and itâs just a matter of very food-oriented marketing instead of generic grassroot organising
[Nathalie]
⌠feels clearer to feel motivated to reach out to the academics, etcâŚ
some storytelling aspect
