(We skipped the meeting on the 2022-01-04 12:00 as the timing wasn’t good for people)
Date: 2022-01-11 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Vasilis
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration: 2h max / 1.5h pref
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- vasilis books a vacation (vasilis)
- thursday evening 20:30 central europe to do MoU co-working (all)
3. Discussion points
- nlnet MoU
- final round to check our draft info
- karrot days
- need to publish/promote/define this a bit more now!
- Nathalie wrote some ideas in the matrix chat
- “meet the team / get involved” session
- offer to do a session about sociocracy…
- “community cafe”?
- can we get some groups to present about what they do? + how they use karrot?
- is one who presentation per group too much?
- pechakua?
- lightning talks?
- a way to bring people (particulary/only? devs) to work on some nlnet milestones?
- finalising dates? next month!
- do we have motivation and energy to push it forward
- is 7 days too long?
- or postpone it a bit?
- maybe 3 audience focuses, and we should decide a bit more?
- external people?
- people in groups?
- people already in the team
- maybe it like a flexible open call?
- loose dates
- the sessions we can already imagine
- then, if we get like 5 sessions, just have it over a weekend
- could work like this:
- writing a more concrete forum post
- ping a few people we might think might get involved
- e.g. are you interested in x session?
- webinar on funding transparency
- Webinar, 19 January 2022 at 10.00 UTC+1
- Forge federation webinar, January 19th 2022, 10am-noon UTC+1 - Events - forgefriends
- questions are:
- who does it?
- if we want to edit the description?
4. Actions/Outcomes
- add Bruno/Vas into “Let’s tell stories” matrix room (nick)
- push forward with questionairre/survey for understanding groups (vas)
- put the draft MoU stuff from the pad into the template (nick)
- send document to Jos as soon as ready, and share on forum (nick)
- write/draft a forum post for karrot days (bruno, or others)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-01-18 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-01-18 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Bruno
Participants: Bruno, Vasilis, Nick
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration 1h30
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- @mentions
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- add Bruno/Vas into “Let’s tell stories” matrix room (nick)
- push forward with questionairre/survey for understanding groups (vas)
- put the draft MoU stuff from the pad into the template (nick)
- send document to Jos as soon as ready, and share on forum (nick)
- write/draft a forum post for karrot days (bruno, or others)
3. Discussion points
- free flowing discussion about permaculture
- more about food growing or something bigger? permaculture software?
- individualized or collective
- would be interesting to see if Karrot could support whatever group doing permaculture
- free flowing discussion about fair coop / faircoin / etc.
- questionaire/survey discussion
- webinar thing
- last details MoU
- we put all three names as contributors
- Nick is the main contact
- we’ll see their feedback about the amount exceeding 20k
- Karrot days
- what will be the confirmed sessions?
- should we make a poll to check people’s interest?
- date? 26-27 Feb
- who should we ping? (take a look at the most active on the forum)
- more ideas for sessions:
- de-foodifying Karrot, bring in people working in other initiatives, like makerspace, and work with scenarios on how Karrot would fit (or not) their activities, and what kind of tool(s) the community needs
- would it be an interesting workshop also for the people of Bonfire?
- jotted down more at Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
- de-foodifying Karrot, bring in people working in other initiatives, like makerspace, and work with scenarios on how Karrot would fit (or not) their activities, and what kind of tool(s) the community needs
- what will be the confirmed sessions?
- proceedings for intake and redistribution of money within Karrot
- it’s convenient that NLnet pays directly to contributors as donations, but we don’t want to make a strict connection between milestones and payments
- Nick is ok about using the Karrot account which is technically his, and give access to other people in the core team
- if it passes the tax threshold, we could also consider using other personal accounts
- opencollective? (downside: payment provider fee - Stripe)
- we’ll discuss more calmly and with time on how to do the distribution
- solidarity fund: one idea for long-term financial sustainability
- how to recognize values and contributions that are usually not recognized and how to support people
4. Actions/Outcomes
- start working on the questionaire and send the first draft to Bruno for comments (Vas)
- contact the free shop group in Gothenburg (Bruno)
- Finish the invitation to Karrot days and post (Bruno, Vasilis)
- send draft MoU to Jos (nick)
- resolve webinar question (nick)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-01-25 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: Vasilitator
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-01-25 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Participants: Bruno, Nick
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- MoU sent! (hopefully final now…)
- webinar feedback
- people liked it, more social compared to the other ppts which were more technical
- 🌈 Nick Sellen 🌻: "💻 I did a presentation today on the topic of "Fun…" - social.coop
- @-mentions @-mentions on Karrot - #12 by nicksellen
- next step to try it out on dev.karrot
- tilman will review it
- reclaim yunity facebook page for karrot
- yunity
- reluctant acceptance to become admins of it, if needed/useful
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- start working on the interview guide and send the first draft to Bruno for comments (Vas)
- contact the free shop group in Gothenburg (Bruno)
- Finish the invitation to Karrot days and post (Bruno, Vasilis)
- send draft MoU to Jos (nick)
- resolve webinar question (nick)
3. Discussion points
- free flowing discussion before check-in about music and improvisation sessions
- Karrot Days
- Invitations out, anything to change? People need to be mentioned Welcome to Karrot Days!
- start tagging people
- post on mastodon (Nick)
- Design by Tim
- social media outreach
- if Dave wants to move on with that
- Invitations out, anything to change? People need to be mentioned Welcome to Karrot Days!
- Interviews/Discussions
- Added the texting/messaging option (Vas)
- Should we post them?
- add a sentence that connects the interviews to ‘Karrot days’
- Direct pms to…?
- Test interview with Bruno
- to be organized
- MoU
- wise accounts
4. Actions/Outcomes
- Write back to Dave: 1st one as a poster, no dates, karrot days instead of hackathon
- Reform text/invitation for interviews/discussions
- Do a test interview with Bruno
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-02-03T22:00:00Z 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: ??
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-02-03 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: all
Participants: Bruno, Nick, Vasilis
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- checkin
- chilled chat about video/photography
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- Write back to Dave: 1st one as a poster, no dates, karrot days instead of hackathon (Vasilis)
- Reform text/invitation for interviews/discussions (Vasilis)
- Do a test interview with Bruno (Vasilis and Bruno)
3. Discussion points
- Poster and slogan for Karrot days (see actions/outcomes)
- Invitations through application process
- discussion about inter-group communication
- could have walls which are walls that can be shared among groups
- or “supergroups”
- MoU
- some last changes
- Karrot days updates?
- Code of conduct and possible mediation/action for conflicts
4. Actions/Outcomes
- for Karrot days slogan 3, poster 3 (Dave)
- edit karrot days post leave time period happening open, we postpone it (Bruno, Vas)
- review MoU and return to Jos (Nick)
- Send out invitations for discussions/interviews (Vasilis)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-02-08T11:00:00Z
Next facilitator: ?
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-02-08 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: all
Participants: Bruno, Nick, Vasilis
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- MoU - awaiting reply from Jos
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- for Karrot days slogan 3, poster 3 (Dave)
- edit karrot days post leave time period happening open, we postpone it (Bruno, Vas)
- review MoU and return to Jos (Nick)
- Send out invitations for discussions/interviews (Vasilis)
3. Discussion points
- freeflowing discussion of scale
- being aware of the limitations of scale within our current model
- post-capitalist models, how much would it be part of our lives?
- “diverse economics” work Graham Gibson (?), community economies
- e.g. The Handbook of Diverse Economies | Community Economies
- we have capitalist systems, but also many others operating below
- global commoning system update
- Global Commoning System collaboration - #3 by marcusmeindel
- a lot of questions and ponderings about it and the possible GCS-Karrot cooperation. We see some potentials
- question about how to connect the vision/model to the reality of people on the ground, avoiding some kind of techno-fantasy.
- use of case studies, ongoing research of groups on Karrot
- what are the bits missing from the model happeing in reality? what happens online and offline
- some connection to ValueFlows: Everything in ValueFlows is connected - Speaker Deck
- let’s continue the conversation! It would be nice to have a call at some point
- schedule chat about history of karrot/yunity
- application/invitation updates
- consent form
- maybe verbal consent is ok, being clear with 3 outputs
- public report (including for nlnet)
- for phd
- improves to karrot
- (also that the information isn’t commercialized)
- maybe verbal consent is ok, being clear with 3 outputs
- having a witness/notetaker to join (+ interviewer + participant)
- some groups/people get research subject fatigue
- consent form
- test interview with Bruno
4. Actions/Outcomes
- do drawing to explain benefit of research (nick)
- ask people in the onboarding team of Solikyl to answer Vas (Bruno)
- connect Vas with Klara (Bruno)
- email Clement cc Vas about DLC (nick)
- schedule call with Karolina + Vas (nick)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-02-15 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-02-15 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: all
Participants: Bruno, Nick, Vasilis
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- for Karrot days slogan 3, poster 3 (Dave)
- join canva and interact in there
- do drawing to explain benefit of research (nick)
- sketch (nick), put it on a msg and share
- ask people in the onboarding team of Solikyl to answer Vas (Bruno)
-vas accepted in the group, planning a chat/call with Joakim - connect Vas with Klara (Bruno)
- email Clement cc Vas about DLC (nick)
- schedule call with Karolina + Vas (nick)
- thursday 24th 2pm UK / 3pm CET
3. Discussion points
-
free flowing chat about food donation laws
- french law, although in practise tricky
- Bill Emerson Good Samaritan Act of 1996 - Wikipedia in USA
- a lot of charity framing, not so fitting to solidarity organising models
- Arash Derambarsh wrote the french law and was interested in an EU law
-
free flow chat about food waste amounts
- big increase in karrot weight of collections
- potential of flexibility of karrot/solidarity groups to have flexible approach in organising for other purposes as they come along
-
reflections on test interview
- collected some thoughts/reflections
-
idea for sharing activity info to clipboard from dave
- Karrot
- could work fine as a quick version of something
- probably doesn’t get in the way of breaking the silo idea
-
how to handle incoming messages from people interested in starting initiatives?
- Karrot
- auto reply?
- karrot group?
- forum introduction category?
- invite other group members to participate?
-
design process breaking the silo
- can be about interaction between groups?
- can also be about people who send us emails and ask about starting a foodsharing initiative?
- sharing knowledge
- connecting people
- can also be about engagement between core groups and wider people within a region?
- engaging with the public
- allowing people to participate in stuff without actually being a member of the karrot group
- maybe 3 nested circles? core group, wider network, public
- facebook (and other tools) use comes in
- medium that is used (esp. corporate platforms) influence the organising possible
- soliskskly avoid using facebook for much organising, point towards website/karrot
- to avoid becoming like a customer relationship system (e.g. “is there ne food left???”)
- alternative design process?
- going through small solutions
- a karrot group called “breaking the silo”
- invite people from different groups, and start the process
- what about using our existing Karrot Team & Feedback group? with a special place for that discussion
- share the data that we have at the moment
- prompt people who want to start a foodsharing to group to join, and engage there
- a small step to understand how this works? (or not)
- however could be overwhelming to “spam” people with more stuff to engage with…
- could we have a small banner inside karrot, they come across it to prompt them and explain what we’re doing
- would point them towards the “design group” (or breaking the silo group or whatever…)
- writing a message after each interview to share inside that group
- maybe wider too?
- gathering information is great (which interviews is already doing)
- ecology of tools is interesting, understanding how they operate outside of karrot
- gives us hints of what we could develop inside karrot to support them
- difuse process, many discussions in many places, more concrete ideas pop up in many places
- like a fruit becoming ripe, then at some point we can harvest
- and here can have one, or more, formalised sessions to gather together to figure something out using a more specific design process
- karrot groups are by definition very closed things (application-only)
- but supporting more fluid movement/interchange between people groups is important
- inside or outside of karrot? could be all/any…
- blog posts could be nice publicaly accessible for all online to read (wider network)
- using karrot team group vs a new group?
- makes some questions come up about what is the karrot team vs groups
- would be nice to support autonomous “work groups” that can do their thing
- exchanging between groups would be really nice for them probably
-
athens experience (vas) (didn’t have the time to chat about that)
-
e-mails about foodsaving going unanswered
4. Actions/Outcomes
- connect Vas with Klara (Bruno)
- interview with Karolina + nick/vas
- 2022-02-24 thursday 24th 2pm UK / 3pm CET
- sketch “research cycle” drawing and send draft to vas (nick)
- keep discussion with Dave to add laptop/shovel to karrot days on karrot/canva (anyone)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-02-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: ?
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-02-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Bruno
Participants: Vasilis, Bruno, Nick, Tim
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- connect Vas with Klara (Bruno)
- interview with Karolina + nick/vas
- 2022-02-24 thursday 24th 2pm UK / 3pm CET
- sketch “research cycle” drawing and send draft to vas (nick)
- keep discussion with Dave to add laptop/shovel to karrot days on karrot/canva (anyone)
3. Discussion points
- Tim and design stuff (Dave said he would be joining)
- 2 versions: menu on the side and on the top
- they should work for mobile: two thirds using mobile, so it should be the focus
- changing “places” view is an idea that goes well together with NLnet funding
- Tim suggestion to begin with: set a baseline grid
- different aspects
- dashboard view
- redesign of the place view
- how to filter places
- place types (scheduled)
- favourites (existing)
- #hashtags (proposed)
- how to filter places
- share design suggestions on the forum
- copy and paste activity info text
- option to check which parts you want included
- e.g. exact location is sometimes only shared privately
- use case is groups outside of karrot that are ready to do pickups
- (especially for pickups that are hard to find people to do)
- copy and paste allows to share with those groups
- how would the process work for the outside people?
- share “public” template (without exact address)
- says “write me privately if interested”
- then send “private” template (including address and link to karrot)
- relates a lot to semi-public activity that you can share with a link, as they will reach karrot
- maybe “share” feature in a phone can be used? ask to open an app
- how to proceed?
- JustDoIt?
- put on community forum?
- incorporate as part of breaking the silo design process
- option to check which parts you want included
- updates from interviews/discussions
- votes after leaving group
- everybody feels if you vote then leave, it shouldn’t count
- conflict resolution improvements
- Dave shared his experiences that having escalating conflict resolution would be useful (e.g. resolve conflict 1-on-1)
- athens experience (vas)
- e-mails about foodsaving going unanswered
- research cycle diagram
4. Actions/Outcomes
- post on the forum about Places redesign, collecting community feedback (Tim)
- another forum post about Dave’s share button idea (dave)
- Vas engage Robin food group to find time for interview (Vas)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-03-01 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-03-08 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: The invisible hand of the meeting
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Nathalie, Vas
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- post on the forum about Places redesign, collecting community feedback (Tim)
- another forum post about Dave’s share button idea (dave)
- Vas engage Robin food group to find time for interview (Vas)
3. Discussion points
- “pickup machine” dynamics
- dynamic present in many groups
- initiative coming from foodsharing.de
- https://foodsharing-staedte.org/
- publicity work, events, political stuff, FFF stuff, etc…
- idea to translate the site? how could that work?
- could be interesting to share with other groups
- people contacting “foodsharing international” …
- we struggle with answering the people
- … maybe an auto reply and refer them to other stuff
- we asked Daniel from Luxembourg about getting involved, he was interested
- https://foodsaving.world is an existing resource we have
- stuff on https://community.karrot.world too
- related to foodsharing towns/cities
- need to actually create a community though, not a text dump
- joined foodsharing leuven meeting the other day
- open meeting for new people, new collaborations, etc…
- then joined for long chat, they wanted to know best practises from interviewing other groups
- cross group learning interest, how to deal with issues, etc…
- our community cafe sessions had some of this aim before, we should bring them back!
- also chatted with arneim/anrham group
- small emerging group, use personal houses for infrastructure
- no roles/beurcray, friends of friends, etc…
- pickup machine is not the aim, cooking food at protests, etc…
- Lund open meeting on friday…
- roles and sociocracy and karrot roles
- processes to create roles, more informal, or not
- e.g. “this is the person who accepts applications”, can create a role, and put people in it… making it clearer and more written down
- discussion of roles in karrot linked to skills, and trust, Applicant trial pickup proposal - #50 by nicksellen is emerging feature
- roles shouldn’t stay fixed, or become fossilized, … maybe re-ask people if you still trust people
- how to get dynamic role systems? ongoing trust? (vs elections at specific times… although elections can also be nice…)
- groups struggle to recruit responsible people, maybe we can help
- definition of a role? 1 time cook for an event, is that a role? person riding the cargo bike? is that a role? compared to someone who does a regular task…
- sometimes too easy to create roles that you might imagine other people doing, but maybe not so grounded in reality
- size/scale of groups, small groups don’t need roles at first, but needed as group grows
- group wide “role” vs activity level “role”, ongoing roles/responsiblities vs one-time ones
- roles in sociocracy
- put all the operations a group is doing in the middle
- the group task to get the operations done
- e.g. cooking event with pickup, cooking, etc…
- if get to the point when needing a policy about it (as maybe it’s done every month), then design a role for that and define what it involves with a description, and autonomy to at within it
- so a role is summing up some operations
- concern with sound of “roles”, a bit millitant… and structured
- example of spontaneous action to cook for refugees, semi-personal/private organising process with some people from the group
- … would that still be possible with more strict definitions?
- include fluidity
- open question: why do we need to trust people through software for them to do things? (e.g. designing our karrot posters, it wouldn’t make much sense to define that role in karrot and trust them…? over numerising them)
- scale plays a part in this, more need to formalise as group grows (e.g. repeated need to co-ordinate with shops, and formalise to solve issues)
- should always leave room for spontnensusuentusysyayity
- are roles need for informalised organising?
- maybe our existing roles, e.g. newcomer, member, are actually a “status”
- some things like talking to a new store should be somebody thats trusted a bit, not any newcomer, that might be limited by “status”
- comittee in foodsharing warszawa is maybe a role? (e.g. the report comittee, trust committee)
- these powers/structures already exist, and often not represented in karrot trust/role system (group roles)
- “working groups” is related concept, e.g. “welcoming group”… and circles in sociocracy
- more group-based thing than individual role/power
- looking at all the operations in a group (circle?), might create roles, or a new circle (the new circle could define new roles within it)
- example of sociocratic operatoins, etc…
- circles: “welcoming newcomers”, “dealing with conflicts”, “store co-ordination”, “political”
- group: whole, then circles within it
- whatever organising models/theories we use, we kind of force it on the group
- sometimes we are missing underlying coherent theory in our features
- we read anarchist cybernetics, seems to have a lot of overlap with sociocracy… would be interesting to explore
- e.g. stuff about hierarchies
4. Actions/Outcomes
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-03-15 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-03-15 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Brazilitator (Bruno)
Participants: Nick, Bruno, Nathalie, Vas
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- MoU agreed!
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
3. Discussion points
- updates interviews
- With Lund this week
- participated in their general introduction meeting for volunteers and had afterwards mostly a free flowing chat
- it was quite successful in terms of getting to know each other (Lund group and Karrot team)
- they don’t put the recipes on Karrot because the image gets cropped
- roles might work well for them when organizing events
- 7 interviews were done so far, 3-4 more (France, Bilbao…)
- we should start organizing the notes
- With Lund this week
- next steps breaking the silo
- collect interview notes and reflect on it
- maybe bring people from the different groups together on the karrot days
- what can we do synch vs async
- idea: create a template for groups to meet in person and sketch solutions
- First step for "Breaking the Silo"
- activity roles next steps
- Applicant trial pickup proposal - #51 by bruno
- think more carefully about the words and the concept: “roles”, “approved”
- what are the limits of volnteering, would it actually work to separate activities in these different “roles”
- it makes sense that some tasks/roles are open for anyone (pickup) and others (coordinator) are more based on qualification or group decision
- next focus for me (nick)
- will look into the MoU
- add Karrot to coop-cloud sounds nice!
- money!
- Nick’s running out of money!
- suggested amount of 500GBP/month
- we need a meeting on that! Go forward with the money circle
- karrot days?
- deploy next version
- including @ mentions
- @-mentions on Karrot - #13 by nicksellen
4. Actions/Outcomes
- collect some thoughts together on breaking the silo design process (bruno, and maybe others)
- schedule a meeting focused on breaking the silo topic (Bruno)
- discussion on the forum thread about activity roles (anyone)
- discuss next week how to reinvigorate the money circle (all)
- discuss karrot days next week
- fix little niggles on @-mentions before deployment (Nick)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-03-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: The Vasilitator
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-03-22 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration ~1h30
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- @mention improvements done! merging soon @mention improvements by nicksellen · Pull Request #2516 · karrot-dev/karrot-frontend · GitHub
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- collect some thoughts together on breaking the silo design process (bruno, and maybe others)
- schedule a meeting focused on breaking the silo topic (Bruno)
- discussion on the forum thread about activity roles (anyone)
- discuss next week how to reinvigorate the money circle (all)
- discuss karrot days next week
- fix little niggles on @-mentions before deployment (Nick)
3. Discussion points
- onboarding people into karrot team
- ideas coming from sociocracy academy
- academy is a weekly meeting
- perspective of Nathalie being new to the group
- maybe 1-on-1 conversations 10 minutes before the meeting?
- Karrot
- uncertainty about governance of the karrot team when joining
- emotional emergencies
- building trust in a group, inviting authenticity, connecting as humans
- idea of having a “go around” where you visit each part of the org
- also relates to our karrot context of trust
- nice to get to know each other
- sometimes we’ve had entire karrot meetings of connecting, very fluid way, going with flow/mood
- … but risk of losing focus there
- trying to get right balance, too much stucture loses spontaneousity
- dance of fluidity and formality
- could designate more free flowing part and more structured part
- good to have a guide for onboarding
- onboarding in general vs a specific person
- connecting in personal way + finding something to contribute within project
- having a specific time slot for free flowing / extended checkin?
- ideas coming from sociocracy academy
- sociocracy input from Nathalie
- using Karrot as training ground for course
- different topics/badges will come up throughout the course
- so can use karrot to try those
- open to hearing when it’s too much
- faciliation badge in particular
- https://www.sociocracyforall.org/badge-f2/
- template for meeting format, similar to our existing karrot one
- … but a little bit more prepared in advance
- would need help to support that to build agenda (maybe before meeting)
- maybe do 2 sessions, and then collect some feedback (which gets handed in as part of course)
- 12th april might be the first one
- Karrot
- using Karrot as training ground for course
- revive money circle?
- two ways forward?
- just decide money-related things in the general meeting
- revive the separate money circle
- nice to try and schedule at least one meeting more specifically focused on money
- would could be during general meeting time (to avoid it dragging on)
- or a standalone one
- concept would be set a basis/grounding for how to distribute money within karrot
- we chatted about it a lot, but didn’t write it down anywhere, or clarify
- YAFP - Yet Another Forum Post
- we did make some concept
- core contributions (with more like basic income)
- solidarity rate payment for occasional contributors
- others that are happy to contribute without money
- postponed a bit because MoU got delayed
- more pressing timing because of Nicks money situation
- also an opportunity for more people to join
- it might be we see no need for money circle regular meetings? could bring up as needed
- money agreements clear, and if somebody thinks about a change, we can chat in meeting?
- maybe put it into the next meeting?
- how about legal status?
- how is it possible to get money? freelance?
- recurring meeting could be overload if not much to talk about
- but good to create a review space to evaluate how it’s going
- find out how it feels for people, pressure, transitions dynamic to work? dynamic with volunteers? etc.
- important not to forget about the review of it
- discussing how to do banking/money
- wise.com shared access
- new shared bank thing in germany?
- https://opencollective.com/ ?
- many grey areas…
- understanding our “real” organisation is what we decide, and we will always need “translation bridges” into the “normal economy”
- two ways forward?
- breaking the silo next steps
- split between actual topic and meta topic of how to run a design sprint
- would be good to do these wider framing part of it
- what do we need, what kind of design problem do we have
- first stage of design sprint it quite nicely aligned for this
- scheduling the breaking the silo topic
- Karrot
- need for sync and async work
- maybe a core group/team to move on with it, to get continuity and people, so we get something done
- previous process was too long, so need for more flexible ways
- still nice to follow the steps from the last design process, but less rigidly, fewer meetings
- First step for "Breaking the Silo" - #2 by bruno
- We are designing governance features and we need your input! - #4 by nathalie
- reviving inactive groups, request from Lausanne https://community.karrot.world/t/revive-foodsharing-lausanne/878
- quite fiddly to restore group (well, the people in it)
- warning message says you can contact an administrator to revive it
- maybe some information is lost, but maybe it’s good…
- can’t create new group with the same name though…
- manually rename it?
- when groups have 0 people left maybe make them go away entirely
- still in db for historic info
- … but not visible anywhere
- is duration for becoming inactive/removed right?
- users marked as inactive after a month (don’t get emails any more) ← maybe this can be extended
- after 6 months get told they’ll be removed
- a week after that, removed
- eventually groups with no active end up with 0 people in them and they are useless
- does the group hold knowledge or information or is it in the people
- “trial activites/roles” discussion progress
- karrot days?
4. Actions/Outcomes
- next week have a more personal/extended checkin (all)
- 12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
- write a forum post about money (Nick)
- scheduling a breaking the silo meeting (Bruno, and others)
- ask Tilmann if he wants to do anything about Lausanne group request (Nick)
- https://community.karrot.world/t/revive-foodsharing-lausanne/878
- otherwise, I offer to rename the old group to something random, so they can reuse the name
- and add github issue to do something about inactive groups with 0 members in
- reply to trial activities/roles forum post (Nick)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-03-29 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-03-29 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Participants: Nick, Vasilis, Nathalie, Bruno
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration
- 13.00 UK time
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- next week have a more personal/extended checkin (all)
- 12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
- write a forum post about money (Nick)
- scheduling a breaking the silo meeting (Bruno, and others)
- ask Tilmann if he wants to do anything about Lausanne group request (Nick)
- https://community.karrot.world/t/revive-foodsharing-lausanne/878
- otherwise, I offer to rename the old group to something random, so they can reuse the name
- and add github issue to do something about inactive groups with 0 members in
- reply to trial activities/roles forum post (Nick)
3. Discussion points
-
a more personal/extended checkin
- ‘protocol’ for welcoming ppl esp the importance of check in and check out
- onboarding process how we inform ppl about that?
- full-bodied facilitation can bring their own methodology
- very extended check in today
- share a thing u d like too and follow up questions possibly…
-
NLnet planning
- “if your work isn’t completed just yet, tell us how much of the project you will be able to finish; and if applicable, how much budget you would like to return for others to benefit from”
- need to do some planning! what needs to be done?
- what feels good in our lives, interests and the project
- ppl from the bigger community?
- precise description of tasks, clear task for this or that
- more people to engage in programming?
- michael, lars, freiburg group?
- a kind of Kanban board to see the tasks and who’s doing it could be useful
-
on the money topic
- what’s the solidarity about in the occasional contributor’s solidarity rate?
- solidarity towards the person contributing but also the project as a whole , Karrot cannot pay market rates
- Karrot cannot formalize things as an employer
- ackowledgement that we cannot really provide for people’s needs and that people who contribute can do it because of their privileges
- better to change hourly rates to negotiated wage
- might be problematic to ask people how they value their time/work
- maybe assign a value to a task?
- what’s the solidarity about in the occasional contributor’s solidarity rate?
-
karrot days?
- next time…
4. Actions/Outcomes
- upload finalized MoU to forum, removing first page with addresses (nick)
- engage with the topic on the forum (all)
- continue the money talk (all)
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-04-05 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
(last week me and Bruno had an informal call, but didn’t take notes)
Date: 2022-04-12 12:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Nick
Participants: Nick, Vas, Bruno
1. Check in and Updates
- agree duration 1h30
- checkin
- Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
2. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 12th April (or week after) idea for Nathalie to faciliate meeting as part of socriocracy study + some support before to build agenda, etc (Nathalie, and others)
- upload finalized MoU to forum, removing first page with addresses (nick)
- engage with the topic on the forum (all)
- continue the money talk (all)
3. Discussion points
- [Nathalie] Hey… I’m really sorry, but I don’t feel well today and can’t do the meeting. I switched back the pad, to not let you too confused. I think the topics can still stay. I know it’s quite unfortunate timing… I’d still be motivated to do the preparing and facilitation next week. See you soon!
- reply to Nlnet
- Nlnet is waiting for a reply to their last mail
- idea: write about status quo
- who’s doing it?
- we already started working on milestones
- not sure right now which we’ll manage within the time
- send a holding reply for now
- maybe in a month we can be in a better position?
- nlnet planning
- what feels good in our lives, interests and the project
- 8 topics from MoU see NLnet funding application successful! - #3 by nicksellen
- share about 1) What I’m interested in 2) Where I could help, but might be too much overall and less enthusiastic 3) What I’m not interested in/ can’t to
- for Nathalie see: HedgeDoc - Collaborative markdown notes
- see if we have a prioritisation evolving
- we filled in pad and havin a chat/round about what we wrote
- on the money topic
- work on basic agreement, our base philisophy
- building up on proposal ideas: How to distribute money in Karrot
- meeting breaking the silo
- stockholm meeting
- holding introductory volunteers meeting soon
- asked Katie if we could join as observers
- approved! but date not confirmed yet
- can ask to stay after to have dialogue
- questionaire for groups
4. Actions/Outcomes
- send holding reply to nlnet (nick)
- fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (all)
- contribute to money topic thread before next meeting How to distribute money in Karrot
- make the money topic the first one for the next meeting
5. Closing Ceremony
- pick facilitator for next week
- checkout
6. Next
Next meeting: 2022-04-19 12:00 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator:
Where: Jitsi Meet
Date: 2022-04-19 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Bruno
1. Opening
- 10 min Check in
-
5 min ADMIN
- attendance
- duration: 1h then see
- minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
- information: any announcements?
- on 27th may, next thursday, sociocracyforall conference, day long, could be of interest to peeps
- next meeting: Design Process 19.04. 20:00 CEST, General 26.04. 12:00 CEST
2. Consent to agenda
- 5 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 10 min
- send holding reply to nlnet (nick)
- fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (all)
- tilman, nick, and bruno filled it in
- vas and nathalie to be gently tickled into filling it in too
- contribute to money topic thread before next meeting How to distribute money in Karrot
- make the money topic the first one for the next meeting
-
Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- first meeting on Breaking the Silo took place!
- nick and vasilis made a nice diagram for breaking the silo
4. Discussion points
-
5 min each agenda item has a short describtion [R]
- report [R] clarifying the information
- exploration [E] hearing reactions & ideas
- decision [D] making a decision
- they build up on each other
- also there is an estimated time for each agenda item
- difference between operational point and a policy/ general agreement
-
5 min consent to mostly speak in rounds for this and the next meeting [D]
- idea is to have more equality in group
- natural flow is highly biased by inherent dynamics inside us
- e.g. women speak less than men (based on research)
- hear everyones voice
- natural flow is highly biased by inherent dynamics inside us
- can be easier to listen to others
- creates the focused time when to listen
- you know you’ll have your space to speak
- making it more a sociocratic
- we both see the value in it, and nice to try it out
- we have tried a bit, but have a lot of free flow still
- interesting to try out more intentional approach, then reflect
- no objections raised!
- idea is to have more equality in group
-
25 min on the money topic [E]
- work on basic agreement, our base philosophy
- building up on proposal ideas: How to distribute money in Karrot
- sense building to create a document (policy) from this discussion
- clarify our open questions (what needs to be answered in this document)
- which rate/agreement/policy for middle tier “occasional contributor”
- do we suggest a rate? (per hour? monthly? per task?) negotiation? or mix of both?
- Nick: more into the negotiation direction, including a context explaining how we see this topic
- Bruno: focus on the negotiation (not a nice word! making a tension like employer/employee), focus on the context and values we try with money, but could suggest reference rates, to avoid situation where somebody feels uncomfortable to say a number (“aarhrhrah is it too much/little”), base value to start discussion with
- Nathalie: seems unlikely a complete outsider would just sign an hourly rate contract and do a task without communicating with us (distant model for us, and the spirit/values), should have negotiation bit (in a nice setting), maybe specify a range,
- could the “occasional contributor” level be higher than the basic income level?
- where do we put the “document” when it’s done?
- Nick: maybe in a “policy” forum category?
- Bruno: agrees with Nick, hopefully can use agreements feature in karrot when it’s ready
- how do we decide on the agreement for each contibutor?
- Nathalie: should be a money circle for this, where the agreements are made
- if it’s a small circle of only a couple of people, that get the money, is it right if they decide? should there be approval from the main meeting? too much overhead?
- could work to be linked to normal meeting, but should have clear cut separation?
- Nick: a circle could work if enough ppl want to do it, otherwise might be confusing/ hard to schedule meetings
- the circle could be kind of evaluation meeting, to see if Karrot and the person fit well, so it’d be more than about just the money
- Bruno: best if it’s in a seperate meeting, but also what Nick said is true, easier to ask people to just come to weekly meeting, but nicer to have a more focused session to talk about money, also might work a bit as an onboarding process, talking about karrot and the person
- Nathalie: should be a money circle for this, where the agreements are made
- what is not in the document (out of scope)?
- Nick: thinking, pondering… it will probably emerge more clearly in the process of writing. Maybe some of the legal and practical stuff
- Bruno: practicalities out of scope, document should be about how we think about the money topic and paying people to contribute to karrot, and how to come to an agreement, how people get paid, who’s paying, which account, where the money comes from, could be left out of this one
- Nathalie: not a strong opinion, pratical bits should maybe be written somewhere, but this one could be more general, but not everything is for being public, maybe that can be written elsewhere
- is there an upper limit? (per month?)
- Nick: no, seems a bit arbitary to me, and reference rates might be sufficient
- Bruno: agree, reference rate range, or maybe 1 figure, negotiation will give a feeling… don’t need to formalise that now
- Nathalie: would like an orientation range, and would find it wierd if the 2nd level (occasional contributor) would be higher than the 1st level (basic income thing)
- should there be a separate money circle?
- … we talked about this in “how do we decide on the agreement for each contibutor?”
- which rate/agreement/policy for middle tier “occasional contributor”
- moving to decision part?
- we have the basis for the agreement already
- topic has been dragging on a little
- maybe we can move to decision by next week?
- would be nice to get going with being able to make payments
- not so much urgency from me (Nick)
- spirit of getting going, and doing continuing evaluation
- we have the basis for the agreement already
- meta question on faciliation process
- what if a technical point comes up during the meeting?
- or about adding extra agenda points durin the meeting?
- adding decisions part way through?
- guideline: as long as we consent, it’s fine
- nice to stay within topic, whilst leaving space for questions a they arrive
next time:
-
10 min karrot days [E]
- status quo, gathering ideas
-
10 min questionaire for groups
- …
-
5 min Nlnet responsiblities
- next steps and open questions
5. Actions/Outcomes
- create a money proposal for next week (Nathalie)
6. Closing Ceremony
- 10 min
- pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
- checkout
Date: 2022-04-26 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Bruno
Hours:
Days:
Participants: Nathalie, Nick, Vasilis, Bruno
1. Opening
- 10 min Check in
-
5 min ADMIN
- attendance
- duration: 1:30h
- minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
- information: any announcements?
- next meeting: Design Process 26.04. 20:00 CEST, General 03.05. 12:00 CEST
2. Consent to agenda
- 5 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 5 min
- create a money proposal for next week (Nathalie)
- fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (nathalie, vas)
-
Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- Vas was at the Stockholm meeting and got some notes
- some students fixed the activity type filter
- hard to support these kinds of contributions
- Tilmann will be less active with coding in the near future (definitely not a celebration!)
4. Discussion points
-
25 min Money distribution in karrot [D]
- see proposal
- clarifing questions
- reaction round(s)
- would add some values (how we relate to the money issue) to the text. Can add it later…
- this could work as a proposal and likes the open questions part (especially regarding the question about privileges)
- likes the idea of bringing up the question of privileges and equity and proportionate rate. Wonders how to value contribution per hour. Would also add something about how we see money on Karrot.
- likes the points above: values context. would make some minor word changes and maybe a short working session would be enough. For now it’s good enough and we see how that feels. Money topic is infinite, let’s keep the discusion ongoing. Let’s be aware if this policy could be abused
- we’ll do a quick session to work on the fine details and discuss where to post it
- reaction to changes (a first paragraph about how we see money, an inclusion of Karrot users to the money circle, and some language corrections)
- liked the changes
- maybe shorten the first paragraph or make it into 2. Maybe introduce with something more positive
- liked the changes, could rewrite the first paragraph but main ideas are there already
- switch the order of the paragraphs. Including any user of Karrot might not be ok. Is it the right space?
- consent round
- do we consider it good enough to try?
- two objection about one sentence “so they don’t need to spend their time selling their labour”
- we rephrased it and consent
- one objection about the rate. Comments:
- there needs to be a number… relates to a minimum wage
- what’s the point of giving a per hour if we do not track the time? We could keep it like this and see how it will or will not work
- consents, but flexible with having it or not
- there might be edge cases regarding a contributors productivity, but consent
- objection withdrawn, but it would be nice to include an explanation on the rate at some point
- consent given to the proposal!
- next steps
- discuss next week where to publicize it
- money circle in two weeks
-
we ran out of time here, next topics postponed
-
15 min karrot days [E]
- status quo, gathering ideas
-
15 min questionaire for groups [E]
- …
-
10 min Nlnet responsiblities
- next steps and open questions
- priorities
5. Actions/Outcomes
6. Closing Ceremony
- 10 min
- pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
- checkout
Proposal: Money distribution in karrot
to be posted in a “policies” category in the forum
The karrot project receives money through funding and donations. We want to redistribute this money to people that already are or want to get involved.
We work within a culture of intrinsic motivation, so we aim for money not being the main motivator for contributing to Karrot. However, we recognize that people need to make a living and have different degrees of privileges and needs, so we would like to support them to spend less time doing work they don’t enjoy. Karrot’s support to contributors will happen within the project’s financial capacities.
All agreements are made together in a “money circle”. We discuss and decide an agreement for each contributor individually. Everyone who joins the weekly meetings, uses Karrot, and additionally everyone who wishes to contribute or to receive money is invited to the money circle.
The money circle needs to be announced beforehand. For practical reasons it usually takes place after the weekly meeting, which is shortened then.
The following serves as a guideline for decision making:
3 categories of contribution
- committed contributor → receives money monthly on a “basic income” level
- occasional contributor → flexible time and amount, reference is 15€/h
- volunteer contributor → don’t wish to receive money for whatever reason
Questions that might be explored during discussions
- “what we need” → needs based, food, housing, travel
- “what we do” → time based, how much we put in in terms of hours or responsibility
- “what we offer” → output based, how much value we are sharing
- “what surrounds us” → country we live in, priviliges we hold, wealth we have access to
Date: 2022-05-03 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Vas, Nathalie
1. Opening
- 10 min Check in
- motivational speech
“Simplicity, patience, compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in actions and thoughts, you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies,
you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate toward yourself,
you reconcile all beings in the world.”
(Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching) -
5 min ADMIN
- attendance
- duration: check again in 1h
- minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
- information: any announcements?
- next meeting: General 2022-05-10 12:00 CEST, Design Process 2022-05-03 20:00 CEST
2. Consent to agenda
- 2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 5 min
- fill the yaffp with our respective commitment to Nlnet milestones (nathalie, vas)
-
Add updates/celebrations here (if you have any)
- Nick hosted nice person from Poland who might get involved with self organised style tech stuff and with the Foodsharing Warszawa group, would be nice!
- money agreement nearly ready, yay!
4. Discussion points
-
4 min nlnet Jos [R, E?]
Hello Nick,
Good to see that you have clear assignment of the tasks on your
Discourse instance. We’re looking forward to finished milestones.It’s best that you work in they way you’re comfortable. We measure
progress primarily by submitted requests for payment. So when there are
non of those yet, we do wonder about the progress.What is your expectation on the finishing of the milestones?
Best regards,
Jos- nick felt a bit overwhelmed opening it, and a bit of pressure, or uncertainity
- nathalie
- reasonable what they are saying
- feels like some things in the list can be finished quite soon
- e.g. roles thing, and a little writeup, and a celebration! would be motivational
- not very far away now
- aim to identify what can be done, and focus on that for the next email to them
- vas
- what do they mean about the finishing of milestones?
- which ones we think we might not finish, and they can reallocate money to other projects
- need to priorities which milestones we aim at finishing
- when is deadline?
- end of october? should check it out
- talk about nlnet priorities next week
- what do they mean about the finishing of milestones?
-
20 min Money distribution in karrot [D]
- open questions
- where to post it?
- a post on the forum and in the karrot team karrot group
- maybe a short post on karrot, then linked to forum post
- maybe on mastodon too?
- new category on forum “policies” and post it there
- word “policies” a bit too official sounding? bureaucratic, and maybe sounds not open for discussion?
- maybe “agreements” category, as thats what we came up with in our agreements design process
- proposal: “agreements” category on forum - check!
- a post on the forum and in the karrot team karrot group
- add people who worked and consented to it at the bottom?
- seems good! - check!
- add review date? (when we schedule to look at it again)
- 6 months from now?
- agreement…
- remembering that group agreement feature should have review bit in it
- so, concern that we might not keep track of it
- could make an activity for it, and maybe put it on this calender Karrot event calendar - #7
- proposal: review in 6 months and add an activity - check!
- where to have ongoing discussion about it?
- forum? and where on karrot group? (somewhere more visible, so “General” place)
- re-use existing thread on the money circle
- could link to that thread in the agreement post
- so separating agreement post from discussion thread
- hard to designate specific places for specific discussions, they pop up where they pop up…
- proposal: write up on this thread How to distribute money in Karrot to link to the post in the agreement section - check!
- next money circle?
- next week?
- shorten general call, and have it after that
- need to announce it somehow? maybe on the general wall
- and also write in the activity description that it’s a money call (or rather, has one on the end)
- proposal: assign vasiliator for the money call next week, who can then work out where to post/announce stuff - check!
- where to post it?
- open questions
-
5 - 10 min karrot days [E]
- status quo, gathering ideas
- motivation to drive it a little forward, get feeling from the group
- should push forward karrot days, make it happen!
- one idea do it before July so we still have people not on vacation
- looking at the nlnet milestones, maybe a couple of things we could work on, ones that are a bit more exploratory
- e.g. have a breaking the silo workshop, come up with scenarios with what we’ve done so far, then mess around on a miro board
- maybe a 2 day event, meeting, chatting, and some hands-on exploratory work together
- karrot days got postponed, echo off that
- how does it fit in personal life
- great idea still
- hands on stuff connected to the milestones, not addition to milestones
- maybe some coding
- monthly community cafe is a nice idea, cross over with karrot days
- looking forward to the karrot days, a nice situation to join
- seemed to hang in the air for some time, not much info about the postponment
- would look forward to some fun and evening things
- a more intense focused time 2-3 days with schedule (compared to scattered around a week)
- already some ideas around for what it could do
- so maybe task is to find a date that works for people
- if motivation is high, then maybe it could work
- before July also…
- from discussions in groups (in our breaking the silo stuff), most of the information about karrot days hasn’t made it to the groups, but when chatting with the groups they’re up for it, chatting to other group, etc
- so question is how to reach people, beyond just a forum post
- interest of group to chat to other groups? e.g. about conflict resolution
- spaces to talk about topics “how to…” onboard/ found a group
-
5 min questionaire for groups [R]
- Vas is working on it, not done yet
-
optional: 10 min reflection in Nathalies faciliation [E]
- next time
5. Actions/Outcomes
- ask what is needed to fill in responsiblities doc [Nathalie, Vas?]
- write holding reply to nlnet that we have quite a few nearly there, and we’ll send more detail about those next week [Nick]
- create “agreements” category and post the money agreement there [Vas]
- create an activity in the “Funding” place to review the money policy [Nathalie]
- link from How to distribute money in Karrot to the money agreement post (that will be created above) [Nathalie]
6. Closing Ceremony
- 10 min
- pick facilitator for next week: Vasilitator
- checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
Date: 2022-05-10 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Vasilis, Bruno, Nathalie
1. Opening
- 10 min Check in
-
5 min ADMIN
- attendance
- duration: until 13.30 CEST
- minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
- information: any announcements?
- Vas is waiting for another week to make his announcement
- Nathalie will send a little feedback questionnaire on her facilitation
- Vas is waiting for another week to make his announcement
- next meeting:
- General weekly 2022-05-17 12:00 CEST
- Design Process Breaking the silo 2022-05-10 20:00 CEST
2. Consent to agenda
- 2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 5 min
- ask what is needed to fill in responsibilities doc [Nathalie, Vas?]
- Nlnet responsiblities
- Vas did it, we will talk about Nathalie later
- write holding reply to nlnet that we have quite a few nearly there, and we’ll send more detail about those next week [Nick]
- we don’t know what happened here
- create “agreements” category and post the money agreement there [Vas]
- Vas couldn’t make a category, only a new tag see Money distribution in Karrot
- Bruno will help to make it into a category
- create an activity in the “Funding” place to review the money policy [Nathalie]
- Nathalie did it with new editor rights in the karrot group
- link from How to distribute money in Karrot to the money agreement post (that will be created above) [Nathalie]
- Vas did it
- celebrations?
- Nathalie had a look at the karrot days pad
4. Discussion points
-
15 min nlnet planning [E]
- more detailed answer to Jos (it has to wait)
- start working on a reply now, check later with Nick
- what are we able to fulfill until end of october
- Improve developer experience
- Nick & Tilmann need to decide, seems to go forward, almost done?
- time scope?
→ (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
- Roles feature
- first iteration is ready to implement, how does the coding go?
- Put name down as responsible even if there are no coding skills? “Taking the lead”, making sure it will happen, is also good. More like a manager. Motivational aspect.
- Nathalie will put here name there!
- write-up and documentation still a bit open. Write a forum post. Make it accessible. Nathalie will feel responsible too
→ (reply to Jos) we will do it! getting there
- Design and develop feature toward ‘breaking the silo’ among groups on Karrot and the wider public outside Karrot
- Bruno proposes to finish “Conduct and publish writeup of design process” by July/ August
- see how it can fit with karrot days to get some feedback
- karrot days in June/July would be cool
→ we can deliver something until October!
- Agreements feature
- Nathalie and Bruno want to see this feature and are therefore motivated
- Nathalie will put her name down and Bruno will be really supportive, working starts in 1-2 months (for “Writeup process and documentation for agreements feature”)
- check with Nick about the implementation part (or other devs in a supportive position?)
→ (reply to Jos) holding on to it
- Refining places and activities feature
- Bruno could come up with first sketch at some point, start the process, work on design
- Vas motivated to help, hopes for input from karrot days
- lower priority for now?
- could come up with minimal version later
- check with technical stuff
- places and activites seem to work fine in karrot now
- task would need to start from the beginning
→ (reply to Jos) a bit unsure (we need to check it in x months? <–would this work?)
- Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
- Vas is the steward
- “Document participatory processes (for other projects)” can be combined with phd maybe, a bit vague at this point
- a blog post on the topics could be nice
- an extra website maybe
- Conduct and publish writeup into how Karrot is being used until June/ July with data from interviews, inside stories
- Guide for participants on how to contribute
- extended list of ways into karrot
- e.g. fo students
- how can you do it
- co-working session at some point
- it’s not a big issue, just needs to be done
→ (reply to Jos) 2 of 3 will be done for sure, the 3. one a bit more optional
- Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
- complicated topic
- think about next iteration and test it
- conduct design process even in fewer sessions than breaking the Silo
- start the latest end june, make it topic for karrot days
- start right after Breaking the Silo, maybe a bit overlapping
- have it in august/september
- is this too late for implementation?
→ (reply to Jos) there is motivation to work on it, implementation could be time-critical
- is this too late for implementation?
- Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot
→ (reply to Jos) Nick & Tilmann should say something about that point
- Improve developer experience
-
optional: 10 min reflection in Nathalie’s faciliation [E]
- another time
- there will be the written feedback
-
move on to money circle!
-
start today but continue next time
-
how much do we want to write down in the minutes?
- personal preference
- check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
-
round reflection on categories and questions
-
-
which category you 'd place yourself in
-
Vas: volunteer contributor (but committed), income from uni, funded and doing research in karrot, no additional money from karrot, one wish would be to keep a small amount of money aside e.g. for a karrot meeting. Receives 1200£ as a stipend, some months 2 rents in athens and uk, not stuff member so not in a pension scheme, unemployed in greece meaning has to pay for health expenses, a loan of 10,000 euros to renovate a countryside house inherited by grandma, shares resources with partner that her job is going shit, most money spent on food, gardening and side-projects
-
Bruno: commited contributor, would be nice if karrot would help to cover expenses, expenses around food and rent, basic bills, travels, not a must, contribution flowing up and down depending on the week, focus on long-term contribution, feels very much commitment, reflection about privileges, living in a welfare state, family has been able to help and has the option to do climbing courses or do swedish courses
-
Nathalie: ocassional contributor, shared economy with 4 others → savings got lower over time, questions of how to achieve a sustainable financial situation, future changes require a new orientation, move out from kanthaus where rent and food are not a cost → health insurance as ongoing cost, get some money out of sociocracy possibly, be happy to get a little bit of money, need to find my karrot projects so this middle thing is quite fitting
-
-
what’s the current balance, how long would it last
-
how we organize ‘money contributions’
-
5. Actions/Outcomes
- Vas will reorganize the karrot days pad (Vas)
- Ask Nick if he wants to share some input? (Vas)
- E-mail to Jos after chatting with Nick (Vas)
6. Closing Ceremony
- 10 min
- pick facilitator for next week: Bruno!
- checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
Date: 2022-05-17 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: Nathalie
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie, Nick
1. Opening
- 10 min Check in
-
5 min ADMIN
- attendance
- duration: until 13.30 CEST
- minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
- information: any announcements?
- back-ups are reliably backing up now
facilitation
- back-ups are reliably backing up now
- next meeting:
- General weekly 2022-05-24 12:00 CEST
- Design Process Breaking the silo 2022-05-17 20:00 CEST
2. Consent to agenda
- 2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 5 min
- Vas will reorganize the karrot days pad (Vas)
- Ask Nick if he wants to share some input? (Vas)
- can be done today
- E-mail to Jos after chatting with Nick (Vas)
- celebrations?
4. Discussion points
- nlnet planning, finish with open questions from last week
- deadline October 1th 2022
- (Weekly call about Karrot development 2022 - #17 by Vasilis_Ntouros)
-
last week we went through all milestones
-
input needed on some points still
- Improve developer experience
- 1 a) is merged, we can request the money
- 1 b) c) and Optional: Nick started looked at this, seems achievable, good idea to talk to Tilmann, support each other
→ we are holding on to this
→ optional ones depend on nlnet also, putting those lower priority
→ get on with one of it now, others can be ongoing, nice independend tasks
- Roles feature
Nathalie and Nick will have a chat on that topic
→ seems good from Nicks perspective - Design Breaking the silo
→ seems good from Nicks perspective - Agreements feature
- implementation part? highest chance for outside devs as there already is the prototype
- maybe break it down to smaller parts
- new devs would still need Nicks help (what he offers)
→ holding on to it, check-in in a few weeks
- Refining places and activities feature
- come up with ideas for design part
→ agreement to what was said last time, evaluate in a few months
- Improvement of the existing conflict resolution feature
- a) in high priority
- b) holding on, evaluate in a few months
- depends on our flow of work, there is potential for a lot of productivity
-
Connect and engage with the communities using Karrot
→ agreement to what was said last time
→ put b) as “maybe” -
Facilitate self-hosting of Karrot
- self contained tasks
- feel good about those
→ we’re doing it!
-
in reply: have different categories for the topics
- high priority
- holding on, evaluate in a few months
be transparent in our communication, check-in with nlnet regular
other thoughts: what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer? → talk about it more in the next call
-
translation requests: korean (just now), and indonesian (october last year)
- on transifex, a button clicked
- no groups with this language
- click “yes” - ok!
- edit our description on the platform
- karrot localization
-
open application on karrot group in spanish
- person who wanted to join a spanish group
- Nick replied in spanish
- Bruno would write another reply and deny request
-
move on to money circle!
- how much do we want to write down in the minutes?
- personal preference
- check again what is written and if you want it published after the meeting
- round reflection on categories and questions
- what’s the current balance, how long would it last
- how we organize ‘money contributions’
- how much do we want to write down in the minutes?
-
current balance: 6276,38 €
-
Nick: commited contributor, short-term: savings going down, long-term: achieve indepented financial situtation, context of whole economy, using holistic concept of value, difficult in capitalist surroundings, aiming for local income too at some point
Reflections:
- tension between spending karrot money too fast and supporting people long-term
- critical about always seeking for money
- finding the right balance
- karrot is growing up a bit, plug more into the flow of our lived lives, keep coherent and consistend within that
- money forces a certain way of operating
- idea from last money calls: distribute money in a way, so it would last 3 years
- with complete nlnet funding it would be around 730€/month total
- maybe rather take 2 years as a reference
- enough time to look for another source of money
- include this guideline in money policy?
- current bank balance for 2 years: 260€/month
- current bank balance + nlnet funding (complete): 1095€/month
- current bank balance + nlnet funding (1/2): 678€/month
- long-term strategy for karrot: a discussion for the future!
- a bit of talk about funding and/or crowdfunding, hybrid model, keeping things independent
- how do we come to a proposal with numbers?
- go with monthly reference
- karrot itself wanting some money (collective expense)
- reserve amount for future contributors?
- shorten terms for money calls
- have the next money call in 3 months, even before if there is the need (e.g. for Tilmann to join)
- talk about it next time and come up with numbers!
- agreed on each others level of contribution
5. Actions/Outcomes
- Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
- Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
- Bruno checks with Vas and they write the reply to Jos
- Topic for next call: what are the condidtions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer?
- update description on transifex [Bruno]
- write reply to application in spanish [Bruno]
- talk about numbers next time [all]
6. Closing Ceremony
- 10 min
- pick facilitator for next week: leave it open for now
- checkout
Date: 2022-05-24 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Bruno
Minutes: all
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie
1. Opening
- 10 min Check in
-
5 min ADMIN
- attendance
- duration: until 12.50 CEST
- minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
- information: any announcements?
2. Consent to agenda
- 2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 5 min
- Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
- Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
- in the near future
- Bruno checks with Vas and they write the reply to Jos
- new action item
- Topic for next call: what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to suport that layer?
- update description on transifex [Bruno] - check
- write reply to application in spanish [Bruno] - check
- talk about numbers next time [all]
- celebrations?
4. Discussion points
- money circle: define money amounts
- 1095€/month for 2 years as a reference (see last time minutes)
- Nathalie: thought a lot about the 15/hour reference, would like to dedicate 5 hours/week, skeptical about this way of thinking
- would like 300€/month
- Bruno: continuous dedication to Karrot with ups and downs
- would like 200€/month
- Bruno and Nathalie still feel flexible with the amount
- re-evaluate on next money circle in approximately 3 months
- what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
- more co-working sessions are more motivating
- checking in with each other more often
- could be scheduled, doesn’t have to be a call, short message
- checking if help is needed
- a “chatty” chat/place, different feel for different digital tools
- trying to find a space in karrot, just writing in the general space? There is not so much activity atm
- continue in next call
- little chat about karrot days
5. Actions/Outcomes
- double check reply to Jos Nlnet (Bruno)
- check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
- continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
6. Closing Ceremony
- 10 min
- pick facilitator for next week: leave it open for now
- checkout
Date: 2022-05-31 12:00 (UTC+2)
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Vasilitator
Minutes: Bruno and all
Participants: Bruno, Nathalie
1. Opening
- 10 min Check in
-
5 min ADMIN
- attendance
- duration: 1:30h
- minutes: last time minutes - anything needs attention?
- information: any announcements?
2. Consent to agenda
- 2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
- 5 min
- Nick will talk to Tilmann about task 1 (improve developer experience) for Nlnet
- Nathalie and Nick (maybe Bruno and Vas too) will chat about roles feature
- in the near future
- double check reply to Jos Nlnet (Bruno)
- check amount with Nick for his payment and officially approve it on next meeting (Bruno)
- continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
- celebrations?
4. Discussion points
-
approve/decide amounts for money circle
- Nathalie 300€/month
- Bruno 200€/month
- Nick XXX€/month
- re-evaluate in 3 months (end of august)
→ go ahead with it, Nick can jump in anytime - would we start using karrot money as we don’t have any NLnet money yet? → yes
- also we can send in first milestone
- money flow day? first tuesdays of the month (possibility to have it later too)
- everyone is responsible for their own tranfer
- we agree (until someone comes and disagrees)
- starting next week!
-
reply to Jos
- level of detail? don’t be too vague, tell about 2 levels of priority
- be very clear
- what we did last meetings
-
karrot days
- Karrot Days - HedgeDoc
- liked idea to have a mix between weekdays/weekend
- starting in the morning on first day is not really for working people
- liked suggestions
- how much can we do? that’s the core of the program
- finding dates: we decide in the meeting here, or give 3-4 options most for the forum
- dates: we define the 2-3 days, only some people visit the forum
- sceptical about duration of the days, too long in general
- likes “inspire, focus, reflect”
- remains tricky how to communicate to groups, different ways to communicate
- before august
- idea: have it week-end only, don’t make it too long
- one weekend in july!
- have date by next meeting
- have it 2 days, not 2 1/2
-
breaking the silo design process
- not happening this evening, maybe another day this week
-
continue talking about what are the conditions to allow work and motivation? what can we do to support that layer?
- co-working as an idea to get things going
- co-working, when?
5. Actions/Outcomes
- invite Nathalie to the Wise account (Bruno)
- working on a draft to Jos (Bruno)
- finally replying to Jos! (Vas)
- check with Nick and maybe Tilmann about which dates would work for the karrot days (Nathalie)
- send out a message to find a day of the week for co-working (Nathalie)
6. Closing Ceremony
- 10 min
- pick facilitator for next week: Nathalie
- checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision