what happens to the conflict resolution when someone leaves?
it stops when you’re the subject
information about it on the vote tab
it continues when you’ve been the person starting it
no limit in parallel conflict resolution processes
knowing who is in another group?
not being in both groups after a split-up
actually you can see it on the members profil
let’s you see common groups and other groups
it shouldn’t be so visible
it is useful sometimes in ‘networks’
more options in user’s profile in the future?
culture of silence, people not speaking up
power positions in group
approving conflict resolution feature having this in mind
the more people speak up, the more comes to the surface
sensitive issues
empower people to raise a flag
problems need to be addressed, they come out sonner or later
building trust to avoid conflicts <–> dealing with conflicts when they happen (because they will)
‘how did we get so far on this’
how to identify conflicts in a group
supporting groups for good governance, e.g. agreements feature
cases when it’s a distaster, abuses - ‘toxic bomb’ in a group
Karrot team mostly separated from groups
makes it easier to talk about this critical topics
only Bruno is involved in very active local group which uses Karrot
more people with their own experiences would be great
psychological effects of self-organising
would be an interesting study
so important to (re)learn a loving way of organising (!!!) <3
‘what if’ scenarios
we could talk through them
what are the scenarios?
‘pick facilitator for next week’ move from Closing section to Opening? [Nathalie]
in the opening? yes
we try it out
Karrot Days
updating activity descriptions with full text?
proposal: faciliators do it for their session
Nicks apple sounds good, the proposal too
invitations to be sent out?
fediverse post uselful
invite bonfire
neighbs app (vas)
l200 zurich (vas)
‘every seed of connection is nice’
we did some already
add some teasers for the sessions on the Karrot group?
- ‘momentum building’
- post on karrot group?
- msg on the Karrot group wall @mentions
5. Actions/Outcomes
Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
invitations to groups/communities [all]
teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Bruno then! but…I am travelling i cannot do it…so…Nick it is!
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
Nathalie away next week until wednesday (away from 21th to 27th)
next meeting: next week tuesday as usual
slow tuesday, no nick, but vas checks with bruno
coworking tomorrow
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
5 min
Share fosstodon @karrot account details with Bruno [Nick]
add BBB link to activities on Karrot days group [Nathalie]
write to Efa about karrot days [Nathalie]
invitations to groups/communities [all]
teasers Karrot days 2022 (co-working session)
4. Discussion points
how to evaluate karrot days [E]
maybe a bit of meta reflection + evaluation of karrot days itself
vas:
avoiding giving a number out of 10
it was great! didn’t expect having 10 people in a session for example, exceeded expectations, people who joined seemed very into it
a bit of disappointment that more people from the lightning talks didn’t participate in later sessions
maybe some people just wanted to jump in to give presentation then leave, hoped for more participation
would be nice to write something, like a blog post, or article, if somebody has the motivation, could go beyond a forum post, e.g. a news article, something can share with other alternative media, to report on process, a bit beyond karrot days, how we did it, how it was. also connected with the nlnet milestones, how different groups on karrot are using karrot, bringing it together. can share it with people and with nlnet.
“pestering people to come”, not very joyful/intuitive, but also worth doing it, being a prick for a while… maybe just because it’s the first time?
overlapping circles, karrot team, and groups that use karrot. not just us that have to reach out, just us accountable to them, but also both ways around. have to build the relationship, maybe pestering is worth doing. maybe should be more shared “responsibility”, not just karrot team. giving more responsibility to people who use software.
maybe rather than responsibility, it’s a sense of interdependence, from garden/CSA metaphor, have some people doing the gardening, since we’re enjoy beauty of garden, nice to help out once in a while
nathalie:
also had it in mind to write up a summary, was thinking of a forum post, other ideas are nice, but also bigger
forum post can include screenshots/pictures, to give a feeling, and link the pads with notes
also for us to have all information in one place, evaluation slides, etc. a place to find all the information
also being aware that karrot days group will be gone at some point unless we keep it alive (ok if we let it compost over time)! would be nice to have a closing post on there, can be casual
a bit confused on how to evaluate, don’t see so much follow-up evaluation, no ideas for a bigger evaluation process
was a really nice way to engage with the community, gave a sense of belonging, that they are connected through karrot, as have felt that it’s something that karrot is not providing, compared to foodsharing.de (which has an organisation), so cool to not be part of an organisation but see the connections and build on this, some groups more than others want to belong to karrot (as a community)
it’s quite some work, prompting people, etc. thinking wouldn’t personally just turn up to event from clicking on a link. personal invites make a huge difference. doesn’t Just Happen.
wondering about level of work compared to the number of people coming, put quite a lot of working into session, maybe too much for number of people attending, and maybe too stressed/professional, and couldn’t meet own expectations, wondering if too much for a small friendly group
felt very nice overall!
prompted a lot of thoughts and re-read some sociocracy stuff, some lingering questions around volunteers, and culture of allowing (fine for people to just use the software), emerging thoughts, not clear yet. would like to explore further with sociocracy people. don’t see every group taking responsibility, would be nice for more spaces where people from groups can be involved. could have a karrot group circle, and different models to ensure links.
also wondering why more people from the lightning talks stay, hard to make a session very appealing that is basically about connecting without a clear structure
wondering about open space session, maybe something clearer would help people to come, how much facilitation is needed? how to engage more with people?
thinking about future scenarios, do we want to repeat this kind of karrot days? different topic? more coding oriented? different style? in person?
nick:
how to evaluate (meta question), structured evaluation of previous things. A little bit of a structure (e.g. rose thorn, buds, open questions for the future), positive stuff + critical reflections. From unity days…cluster the two together → focus on future work. A more diffuse way might work as well
Direct evaluation: energy resourcing, felt motivated and energised afterwards, felt grounded, tanglible, rooted in experiences, there was a lot of alignment in general e.g. breaking the silo → can be on a tech way (federated protocols, dec tech) whereas breaking the silo can be more community centred, more social, less tech-centric (bolo-bolo thing might tie a lot)
evaluate how to move forward in general over the summer
writing an article for general consumption
a forum post that can be coherent, or dump enough (notes, links, writeups for the seesions, key takeaways). Those can be a nice base for writing an article
Interconnectedness between groups. Community cafe can be a way forward. Or pester sb monthy to partricipate in a ppt round
wider networking for Karrot itself: NVC stuff for example, what can we do to bring in ppl from other ‘ideas’. Network of communities of organizing. Ties in a a lot to what I have mind about bath. Resourcing the infrastructure. Resourcing: a festival, a community cafe vs isolating
what is the right number for a session? the example of the session Nick facilitated
in general I liked the number of ppl and not some random internet ppl to listen out of curiosity
emergent version: a space where ppl step in when they feel that they want to take on some responsibility. The see a a need and then ‘act’. More fluid structures.
form a ‘project circle’/‘helping circle’ for the conflict resolution design process? [E]
formalize/structure from the conflict resolution session for the design process
also a way to play with the circle structure, as a co-ordinating circle, and a temporary connected circle we give the authority to for this specific feature?
writing a little template so a group can act on it, e.g. “design the next conflict resolution feature”, and how the decision part is, give the power!
there were some discussion about power terms (e.g. leader), but maybe appoint someone here
could give Tomek a structure to act in, maybe Bruno/Vas to lead?
also seemed to happen a bit with the breaking the silo process
reporting back was kind of informal, could have more intentional reporting
Aim/expected outcome/mandate
Domain
Leader
Term/review date
A plan for membership in the circle
do we want to bring more intentionality to the structures?
Nick: bring more intentionality (YES), experiment stuff and evaluating, what would enable tomek for example to participate? There is some overlap with the design process itself which is a frame to bring in different input (ask the expert). Sociocracy by the book might not neccesarily adjust to this…reflection on the design sessions in general. What have worked? What we want to throw away. Things can surface out from a looking on session/document on design sessions. Trying to make a structured process is really hard to get this regular participation.
Vas: don’t have much to add, easier to work with people now we’ve since each others faces (people in groups), have established a relationship. a forum post is probably not enough. personal connection is important. might make sense to have more of a structured process, e.g. in a karrot group have a forum to be able to share with the karrot team? so having messages directly in the karrot team group from the groups… more direct means of communication. not sure if anything makes any sense
Nathalie: would like to see this kind of structure, based on assumption that we have the decision power, and we give it somewhere, which is probably actually the reality. more generally the topic of formalization of structure. different of feedback and decision power. aim of project circle, e.g. “design next conflict resolution feature”, could be more explicit about using the design process.
Vas: from some chats with Bruno, somehow decided not to follow the same path we did for the agreements feature, to be a bit quicker, and “good enough for now”, so didn’t open up the process so much, and less reporting. also have to take into account nlnet thing. how to balance possible funding to get with how open/participatory we are. have to submit MVP for conflict resolution by october, so needs to be part of equation.
Nick: decision power: if there is noone to enact a decision there is no much point in making a decision. Motivation (mainly intrinsic) and materials/resoruces available. Grousp of ppl making decisions and plans but totally disconnected with the ability. Alignement needs to exist. Counter-part:Develp sth that is already designed and clearly described (e.g. Freiburg group).
permacutlure design: make clear the boundaries you are working within
Nathalie: within project circle, can consider what needs to be represented, e.g. a developer, to represent software perspective, how to create ideal circle.
Nick: see’s two levels of stuff we’re talking about, how to move forward with conflict resolution design process, and the wider topics of governance of karrot project, which deserves it’s own space
Nathalie: maybe some of the sociocratic structures are too rigid for how we’re organising right now, maybe worth bringing the clarity though to the first design process meeting, to frame it more clearly, which is less than the full structural version
Vas: since there is already a process in place, some work done on breaking the silo, some input on karrot days, tending to meet tuesday night for breaking the silo. new ideas for experimentations, e.g. creating a circle, might happen more intuitively, e.g. reach out to people next week, if they join, open up the discussion, and check in with existing ideas. so build on top of existing pieces.
Nathalie: a lot of personal ponderings about sociocracy stuff, maybe winter is a good time for wider organisational structure reflection
bruno lurking and enjoying the notes
hey bruno
hope you aall having fun!
NLnet money came in!
evaluate our nlnet milestones situation
5. Actions/Outcomes
ponder “helpdesk” and/or community cafe sessions further [Nick, Vasilis]
reach out to people from karrot days about conflict resolution process, tag them on karrot, or send them a personal message [Vasilis]
karrot days next steps
what to do with the karrot days group
write a message on it! [Nathalie]
collecting the resources in a forum post [Vasilis, Nathalie…]
writing an article for general audience [Vasilis,…Nick interested in in happening and wondering how to support it :)]
background ponderings about karrot organisation structures, maybe to open up more in the winter after this season of work [anyone]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
pick facilitator for next week: Bruno (as punishment for bailing on us this meeting)m
pick facilitator for next week*: (* a few meetings ago we decided to try and do this in the opening section)
Nathalie
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
5 min
contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Nick]
schedule work on “Guide for participants on how to contribute (for potential contributors)” to co-working session on the 10th of August, send reminder [Bruno]
email Jos [Nick]
see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]
one disk was broken but we don’t know for how long, Tilmann found out when he tried to reboot
took some time to find that out after it could not boot
a lot of organisational legacy stuff, back from Foodsharing days
got assistance from the provider Manitu and they were really nice in their support
there will probably be some costs (support + disk replacement?)
good to have at some point in the future our own server
Nick and Tilmann had to juggle a bit with their own plans, but it felt like a nice team work
it was a nice opportunity to make it human and not (work/service-like) professional to Karrot users
stressful situation, especially when it’s still not diagnosed
brings up the question of responsibility and vulnerability: if Tilmann and Nick were completely unavailable, would other people step up to fix it?
could other people in the team have been more supportive?
since it’s a very technical issue, not much in this sense, but not making it very serious and stressful helped
could we set up some kind of emergency routine?
update prototype testing [R]
testing with Daniel from Luxembourg yesterday
good insight, with ideas to fix some things
location: at the moment we create activities as part of a place, that may or may not have a location, and might be nice to be able to set a location directly for an activity
suggestion is that the email address should be verified (for signing up)
discussion around the chat, when could you join the chat? verify email? join chat before signing up?
if you want to ask a bit more about it, how would that work?
public activities being visible during the application process
e.g. introduction meetings to support onboarding processes
might be a view on the group preview page to see the public activities
some would be nicer to have as private links, rather than listed on the group preview page
might be able to facilitate better intergroup exchange, e.g. can click on another group and see what they’re up to
… and some notes to evaluate further
prototype itself had some more superficial issues, but didn’t affect the idea itself
testing with Dave tonight
do 1 or 2 more, but not a lot, and have it done
also had an idea to test with non-karrot users
for the milestone?
going through notes and memories for this breaking the silo design process, and write a short friendly text/summary, and put on the blog…
nice continuing evolution of design process, with penpot tool, etc… hopefully can empower more people to lead these processes to evolve new ideas within karrot
money flow [R]
just making sure we did it all
end of august plan another money circle
look at who is receiving money and how much, and how people felt, check balance, new people, new wishes?
nick: little pa"nick"! state (Nick) the amount of stuff and duration (1st of Oct) feel overwhelmed, ‘life struggles’ as well, resynchornize my brain with the state of reality
nat: totally relate, wasnt part of this agreement, I feel like extra (a bit), limited to the non-tech things, its good if some money come in but I m not super dependent on it, reconsider our relation with the funding
vas: also part of phd research, get pressure from supervisors to write, end of sept to write something for a conference, want to prioritise nlnet milestones, important the milestones are done to some extent, contributing to more than karrot, but personal lives of contributors, milestones signed up to are doable
bruno: thought a little already, felt a little pressure, really need to be more disciplined and mange time better, hopefully will manage to do them all, ambiguous feeling, a bit more stress, don’t like deadlines, but also a little pressure can be good, sometimes people perform better under pressure, giving structure/motivation, gives him a little more focus, trying to get balance, can relate to nicks feelings, reflections on sense of obligations, nlnet maybe used to projects like ours, if we have good communication should be no problem, are the obligation feelings about seeking validation from figures of authority? also pressure from financial aspects?
nathalie: nice to have a goal, giving some structure, low motivation so good parts of pressure, ideal would be if something is only for the money, not wanting that, but clashes with reality… leads to having no money. maybe we should say no to something in the milestones… not end up with a big crush in last week of september
vas: agree with nathalie, if we can decide in the next days that something isn’t happening, can remove some pressure? reflecting on relationships with funding institution, doesn’t currently feel like pressure from them, liked the approach to not be accountable to external orgs, but to the community (which would be totally different funding concept, e.g. crowdfunding), real-life is maybe a combination… was still good move to apply to it
bruno: I agree… continuous evaluation of what we’re going to make or scrap, do what we can do maybe crowdfunding future is good…
nathalie: in context of karrot days, was it a distraction from the milestones?
positive to privacy policy themselves, but not rushing because of app store
human perspective privacy policy would be nice
banner on testing public activities prototype [D]
idea: short text with a link to more information on a forum post, where people can find the link to the prortotype
what about the frequency of putting up new banners? We don’t want to annoy people
how long will the banner stay up if it’s not closed?
latest post about outage was deleted. Last one about Karrot Days still shows
Manual deletion is required when banner message is not relevant anymore
propose to give Bruno all the power in the world to write the message on the banner MWUAHAHAAAAAA!!
metapoint: Nick doesn’t feel consent or permission is necessary on this topic
some fixing still needed on the prototype before putting up this banner
5. Actions/Outcomes
contact Kranti about specific issue, with mind for it becoming ongoing “helpdesk”/cafe form? [Bruno]
improve public activities prototype [Bruno]
see about handing over co-op cloud self hosting task? [Nick]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
a few things working on with Bruno, would like to hear Bruno first
Nathalie:
2 things on mind, roles feature writeup, need to sync with Nick about it, could be all completed!
a bit unsure about agreements feature, comes in 2 parts, writeup could borrow from roles feature writeup, not sure if MVP will be a thing it’s hasn’t come up much lately, milestone feels unsure
writeup for roles could be done in a few days and have some other time
document participatory processes doesn’t have a name assigned at the moment, so maybe could help out here
Nick:
a bit overwhelmed
migrate front end done
front end tests working on now
developer documentation, I m writing up a bit, wont put that as a main focus
roles is important to work on since its almost done, 2 dev parts in it, concept is pretty much there, trust for role feature ?
breaking the silo: an MVP looks possible to be done
agreements feature → not to prioritize it ( put it on the back burner)
refining places and activities: doesnt seem to have a lot of focus atm
conflict resolution: height priority
connect and engage with communities (supportive). be up for chatting
facilitating self-hosting: might be a good idea to work on it and take it more seriously
5 weeks left, not enought to do, if tasks are not those big spirally ones it might be possible though
Should we try and say Jos about those that we are not sure we are doing?
Bruno:
breaking the silo: almost done, will be delivered for sure
95% done
need a bit of prototype improvement, and a little testing, but that’s it
improving conflict resolution: depends on our ambition, but my realistic plan to be able to deliver this one is to not do a new iteration of it and actually come up with easy to do changes to the existing one, such as the one came up with already about notifications, and decide on other ideas and feedback that we got, like changing the name to “user removal” or the voting system
not so much time for whole new iteration/concepts
so maybe more narrow specific improvements
less process
maybe a couple of meetings with more than just the core
could start some sketching on the new one, whatever we can manage in the time frame, to come up with new ideas, but a full process
a bit unclear, depending on scope, could still do something? also connected to editing place types?
schedule a session to see what is feasible? would need discussion to start seeing solutions, then could maybe do some work alone on it
Vasilis:
uuuhm ok, so…
wondering about the small improvements to conflict resolution… (bruno has a list, e.g. notifications, the naming, voting system?)
idea of softer sanctions? (bruno: maybe as another iteration that is not realistic in our timeframe)
by writing up karrot days article it’s a good basis for report about connecting and engaging with communities
then can focus on “Conduct and publish writeup into how Karrot is being used”, maybe the writeup fits this? adding a bit more detail from the interviews we did would make sense
would like to work on guide for participants how to contribute, feels very do-able, could dedicate 1 meeting to do some mapping collaboratively, to create a guide that can be pinned somewhere
Bruno: Q: was there a co-working about this? yes, but did other things.
been quite involved in breaking the silo, and shit, I’m a bit spaced out, what’s the other feature, and conflict resolution, happy to be wingperson in this still
scheduling things? (numbers in priority order 1 = important!)
meeting about MVP for breaking the silo this evening 1 1 1
Nick and Nathalie sync about roles feature 1 2
coworking tomorrow
participant guide co-working 2 5 2 6
solo coworking tomorrow for vas, to get us started… (could go async, via excalidraw), maybe nick/nathalie can join in there
a few sessions for conflict resolution sketching? with others? 2 2 4 4
using scheduling tool to work times of week, maybe next week some time… Bruno will set it up
a bit more breaking the silo testing? 7 3 5
agreements feature sync (what is MVP and how would write up look?) 6 6 5 3 5
what is feasible about display of places and place type editing 7 7 5 4
are we still trying to do too much?
time window for cancelling things? is that window over?
and what about from team perspective? what can we manage?
proposing we could remove refine display of places/types/activities to remove?
but maybe there is a bit of time near the end we could do stuff in?
is there deadline extension possibility?
good to contact them
can we phrase it that we won’t get the milestones on time, and ask how to handle?
I did starting with the most recent ones. There are still unanswered mails from march and before
reorganised the forum
still some unanswered ones
4. Discussion points
dev update [R]
two things (Nick and Tilman)
front end testing. now much more useful tests (screenshare from Nick). a few types of tests and we reach the milestone of 75%
participants types, see thread on karrot group #development
has a ‘feature’ flag, add manually for groups
review meeting time/ check with Bruno [E]
Nick: check with bruno first, also in context of doing other work from mid-October for some months…
Nathalie: good that we think about this too. Next step to find someone to check in with Bruno. More flexible evening times
Vasilis: flexible in changing time
handover NL milestone [R/E]
possible to hand over. its more sel-contained and techy/specific
coop cloud people
asked and there was interest
M. would do some work and get some money, L. will mentor him and also receive some money
+better development for self-hosters
already connected somehow with M.
what’s the connection to the money circle? Unclear the communication a bit, how is connected with the money. Task not combined to the money directly, the money part is part of the money circle. Is it expected to be linked? We unlinked the milestones from money ourselves so how is it going to work here. Process level to see the money agreement.
nick (again): confusion came from money agreement. we do have a money agreement in place.
a new use case now
was nice exercise to explain the detchment of Nlnet milestones from what people get as monetary contributions
external can fit the contributors. Any leftover goes to the pot
external should they come in the money circle or the core can decide on an issue/collab with an external?
i dont see it as super necessary for a new person to come in the money circle
mini proposal: lure him to the next tuesday meeting and in the meantime sort of chat with him. Karrot team group to join if he would like to
Money Circle: Look at who is receiving money and how much, and how people felt, check balance, new people?, new wishes? [E/D]
[Bruno copied from Karrot] I can express on my part that I’d like to continue receiving the same amount if there are no budget restrictions on that
current balance: 5196€
Bruno: 200€, Nathalie: 300€, Nick: 400€
nick doing some work from mid-october
nathalie getting a bit of money from SoFA too, receiving Karrot money feels good
idea for solidarity pot of money, for groups, or people
last month of uni funding for vasilis, spending savings, considering applying for karrot money in near future
5196 / (200 + 300 + 400) is about 5 months left, only including 1 nlnet payment so far
proposal: keep numbers the same, but change the period for just next 2 months
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
Bruno: it feels quite positive, things are movin on, underline stress, reaching a deadline, looking forward to see the new feautures/significant changes, how groups will use it and give us more feedback, nt much time to do Karrot work last week, it felt good… Just generally positive
Nick: emotional, indications of doing other things to cover emotions, pushed way some local stuff, feels abstact sometimes…and stungling with that intagilbe part of connecting. Would like engage with stuff in bath. I struggle promoting it (Karrot?). I need more activating force to make things a bit more real. Sit with ppl, chat with ppl, when I do go in that directions turbulance emotions are brought up. Checked the other projects that see the potential of other similar projects like unity/karrot. A million networks that do not coperate at the end. This fucks with my head when I look on them all. Almost feel to be pushed in this other job which is not the rythm of life I m looking for. Let go a bit of Karrot and see what happens…I like this break/breathing. Leave space for someone else. There is the uncerntainty of the winter (metaphorically speaking). And the non-metaphorical. Instead of capitalist work put insulation in ppls houses.
Vasilis: in a mix between what bruno and nick said. have to be positive, in terms of karrot, deadline, committed, work my ass off… more like burnout coming, in terms of karrot. too many things, and too lonely. writing big texts. not sure it’s worth the effort, who’s going to read these things? also fun, and enjoyable, and going to be win/win for phd too… feel unmotivated at the same time. too much going on the last two months. not only with karrot. in zurich, every day come to meet new people doing nice “community” projects, but can’t really find the purpose behind them, or align. a bit of community-washing, green-washing… why do I judge them? don’t feel emotionally sober to be judging them fairly. just like some old guy that knows everything saying “you kids don’t know shit”, don’t feel good in that role. need a celebration after nlnet deadline, not sure what though. since not in the right headspace, takes ages to do something that shouldn’t spend so much time on. e.g. going through notes for way too long. should take 1.5h, but takes a whole day. mixed feelings. inspired by Bruno saying he feels positive. (“THINK POSITIVE!” says bruno in an ironic tone mimicing a positivity coach). this chat is super important to have, even though we “should” be running to the milestones… nice to create the space for this.
Nathalie: notes on sociocracy and NVC, in the last sesion we talked about I have to and I should do. The should is kind of judging path. How u rephrase it to choose to and not choose to. We choose to talk about NLnet milestones. We could also say that we do not choose to talk about the NLNet milestones. It is quite interesting to know and think about those choises. OK. back to Karrot. I def noticed that I need to rebalance a bit with the increasing bit I m doing with SOFA also struggle a bit there to do the hours I commited to. There are other things, in terms of NLnet and milestones I am also to finish the things I ve commited, I m still quite relaxed about hte things and I can manage, it feels like a lingering pressure but ontheotherside my focuses leved increased again. I noticed I havent been in this project space for a year. I was actively missing to do some work things but not it feels nice to have some tasks now but I m sensitive not to overcomit and make it a slow progression. The only bit I am struggling is the structuracoe…what’s this team…how it compares to the community…not that I struggle but…I like believing in things I do…the deeper I go (in sociocracy)…try to make it sense in a general way. Is it now the new standard for me? Also I should be aware of having some more flexbility. I find it diffucult with contibution/roles that are not rooted in a communication net. It is more of a theoritical concern.
it is nice having those convos. It feels like a breathing out (nick), expressing my own bit of life but listen to others.
standing up about this fringe work…small talk kind of thing (so what do u do??). I stick on my pretty ‘normal’ job which sounds pretty straitfoward. Non commecial stuff that I dont get money from…explaining Karrot is not that straightfoward. It kind of sucks having this that all the time u have to explain yourself.
recently self-employed…this feels more like ppl can relate to. I m getting a bit back/closer to society. I do see the rising costs now…it is actually in a weird sense…i do enjooy a bit the connecting bit of it. Its not that I can cut out society completely. I belived that for a bit. I m now reviewing this cut-off and it now feels nice to back a bit. I feel that I am going a little bit more to a more accepted by society state.
Resonate a lot with being back connected to society and see the struggles. I feel more connected.
Tricky tning is to be connected but get the space to do your other things (in and out)
Nathalie: voting system: I would keep as it is and the rest I m happy to revisit this evening
Bruno: pass #idontcareaboutkarrot
Nick: my quick sense is that we keep what we have. Minor changes. Potentially we open up more we can handle if we openup the voting system. Didnt sound like a screaming need. Still nice to improve but for now we could keep the current one
Vasilis: not a lot of people mentioned issues with the voting system, would like another one, but if we just added another one it might have it’s own issues
new standard time for weekly call?
bruno, evenings
vasilis, mon/tue seems useful
continue to think/discuss… online
a poll?
dev/nlnet update [R/E]
another rfp submitted
tilmann
place type editing
mergeable very soon
places display
start on, bruno sketching, … chats on karrot
trust for role
has looked at nathalies penpot designs
tilmann/nathalie can connect on it
nick
participant types
need: help working stuff, see Karrot (and scroll down a bit)
conflict resolution
hopefully decide stuff that can be developed from now
public activities
aiming to start on it next week
bruno can evolve prototype if more ideas, not a lot significant though
aiming for minimal features
agreements
michal / co-op cloud update [R/E]
have shared with michal how money/technical/organisational stuff should work
time limit is tricky, enough time for next week? or async/meeting?
decision/objections to be raised online?
nick to continue arranging stuff, share things in karrot, include time/location of meeting if/when organised
also nice to invite to next call, not just/only for decision stuff, but also social side, getting to know
communities using Karrot report updates [R]
takes more time then expected, feels lonely, but also somehow nice, reflecting back on what we’ve learned
interesting that we have so much input from the groups, but then have to face reality of the MVP
opening up the process, so many ideas that make sense
and then in real life not so easy to implement them, nice to admit
plan to have it finished within a week, each interviewing taking a day to decode, making notes on notes, thinking how to make readable text, not just bullet points, something people can read and make sense of, and we can read it too
quite dynamic what happens in the groups, quite a bit of input during covid, would be interesting to see how groups deal with stuff now, everything had got quite remote, and aspect of community fading out, so how is it changing now?
tonnes of information! about all the different groups, each group has it’s own ecology, super interesting, one way to decentre karrot as the focus, karrot is the medium/faciliator, but alongside karrot there are other faciliators
getting more involved in foodsharing.de in zurich, time online on foodsharing.de compared to not online… digital is just a tiny bit of the ecology, but very important and central. focusing on small tool, spending hours on hours discussing about really small part of the chain… and also super important.
walk through screenshare of place type editing [R]
Next time
plan a release after Nlnet’s deadline [E]
plan a celebration after Nlnet’s deadline [E]
welcome Luke/ Michal
5. Actions/Outcomes
continue exploring new standard time for weekly call [?]
code like mad!
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
walk through for participant types language stuff (nick/nathalie) [D]
could remove raw json parts of history info thing… even if just participant types for series change?
missing icon for “meeting no longer available” notification, an X cross type of thing
one notification per activity removed to include the date/time in the message
all link to the same history still (which is the only place that they can see the custom message in the UI)
when editing the series description, the activities are not being updated…
make the push notifications mirror what the notificaions do (e.g. 1 per activity), and use the custom message as the body… (make sure to include name of person who wrote it too)
aren’t doing a lot of reviews on the write-ups, so would follow that approach
is quite nice (well, hope so)
improved place display, merged! not yet RFP’d
Nick to submit RFP, checking with Tilmann first
public activities
just need to a few tweaks following review, then merge and RFP
conflict resolution improvements
address review comment, fix test, merge, RFP
agreements feature …
focus on listing, creating, updating, deleting (CRUD) agreements
no decision process around it
possibly a chat for each agreement…
could add review date
behind feature flag
open field for when it was agreed
had a lot of thoughts around generalized decision processes, using sociocratic models, and bringing together with membership review / conflict resolution
the future is bright, the future is social
self-hosting task: on it’s way! see matrix karrot-dev channel
RFP questions
If you’ve indicated the right amount for each task, you are almost done! Now all we need to know is how to verify these results. We very much appreciate your help in providing us with some guidance here: you know your way around your own project like probably noone else. Please provide direct links, preferably with a short description what we will find. The more complete and targeted information you provide here, the quicker we are able to evaluate your work. Thank you for your help!
Check the task description in your project plan and make sure that every subtask and deliverable is covered - this may cost a bit of time extra right now but saves a lot of time going back and forth.
two fields:
Please provide links to the achieved results in the task identified above, e.g. release notes, blog posts, updated documentation, and anything else you think could help us.
If you have any other remarks (e.g. change of your address or bank account, specific requests on how to label your payment, etc), these can go here.
so for Nathalie, Bruno, Vas, wanting Nick to submit the RFPs, please tell him an answer to those questions
where to publish write-up, documentation etc.
proposal: forum (link to pdf/ attachment to forum) and github repo for source files (pdf, images, latex file, doc file). Nathalie will create repository and support uploading, everyone can do a forum post for their own thing (where it seems fitting). Further outreach tbd next time.
No meeting today
Tonight 7pm CEST: Let’s celebrate together with a drink our 10 month effort and dedication in building new features/process and documents
Next meeting: tba in 'Karrot Team & Feedback’ group
general assessment of how we are working in/with karrot over the winter [E]
Vas: tired, motivated but trying to catch deadlines, already took some time away now, winter: back in UK, work on thesis, throw away hat of researcher, super motivated still, participate further, up for more funding, write application, we are digital friends :), happy to still do coworking while working on the thesis
Bruno: do some work related to rounding up the whole NLnet in terms of presenting the features, tutorial things, sort of prepare some kind of announcement(s) for new releases, I can see of taking a break and continuing in a slower pace, if there is some kind of plan it would be nice to continue in a slower pace. (Is there a plan?). Share the same feeling with Vasilis even if its less often. Defo not in the same intensity as during the NLnet.
Nick: I like the sense of the rythms (seasonal), uncertain of how the flow would feel like in the capitalist work, zombie during the week, some hope in the weekend, 7 hours per day (flexible), i need to see how its going to be in the capitalist work, co-working even while i m doing the capitalist work would be nice and motivating, beyond winter: spring and summer of Karrot again, really positive about Karrot, really nice conversations with ppl, frustrated that I have to do this capitalist work, more dreaming/conceptualising/doing modes and switch between them while working on Karrot, a nice opportunity in practical terms I will be a bit more distance and see what opens up, ongoing work of maintaning it, if it goes offline that’s still on my and tilmanns shoulldlers, curious to see how it goes in this more slow (winter) period. Slowly finish up the Nlnet stuff, deploy, fix the bugs.
Nathalie: motivated keep doing things for Karrot, excited not to have the NLnet, more free to play around (more), curiosity to look around and play around, have some ideas from the features, proabably not go now on the what I can do, last week of the funding i did more than I ve planeed to do, cannot comit per several hours per week, happy to be in meetings and co-working, I do work in co-working time, defo continue that but put it back in this ‘box’, sociocracy put it higher on my priority, beyond co-working idea, more reliable when having sth planned so in favor of this group work (can be outside Karrot in terms of what we are working on).
next meeting time [D]
frequency/time availabilities
Nathalie: Flexible, can shift things around, do have time for meeting and co-working, prioritise all ppl are around, wonder if there woudl be time for a co-working. Happy to do compromises there. Weekly meetings
Nick: weekly regular thing, Monday for co-working, Thursday and Friday. Meeting is better for me to be on an evening, quite restricted, Friday evening is the only time for a meeting for me. Sundays taken up, Saturday is nice to keep free. Its tentative for now.
Bruno: very restrictive as well, evenings during weekdays are the only feasible time, pos during the day but a bit more tricky, thursday(?), Monday, Tuesday evenings might work. Can try to adapt
Vasilis: flexible, would like regularity, all days except monday mornings
Evenings??? Monday, Friday? early evening monday? 5.30 uk? 6.30 Swedish time.
Next meeting: Next Monday 5.30 UK time! let’s try it out.
idea: asycn work, example from the wales that nick shared and share short videos of what we did?
Next meeting: friday 21th October 19:30 CEST
NLnet funding reflection [E]
where does the sense of fulfilment come from?
set an objective as a self-managed group
external figur setting a deadline
we managed pretty well
we actually wanted to do the things we did
setting our own objectives in the future?
many thoughts around deadline
Nlnet model and karrot model: make them fit together
success: we made a good fit
NLnet adapted the EU model
great conversion process
still it doesn’t fit our model exactly
would we have things done without the funding?
e.g. public activites feature went really well
enabled very fast development
‘all in one week’ - and it worked!
adding more structured parts to the Karrot project
setting milestones seemed very abstract
more loose roadmap and then refine it could work better
written down things were good
maybe make a template on how to build a feature
systematise our process
getting really stressed partly in the process, disappointing people?
nice support from Karrot team
still a bit time pressure
“easy” funding compared to others, nice with the donation system, little bureaucracy
open and good communication with NLnet
would be interesting to continue with NLnet
wished better time planning with our internal deadlines
the role of management needs more visibility
nice way of handling the money as a team
maybe: collect topics for the future we didn’t cover today [E]
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
do we know if you apply and do milestones like nlnet?
if we could connect with a local UK group and do it with them, it could be good
could/would be different context to foodsharing
one point said: “sounds kind of cool”, they put emphasis on commons/sharing/learning
a 2 year programme
biggest concern/objection is that we don’t have a legal entity
would be very rushed to found an entity
even opencollective approach might not work
we could take one step back and explore the world of funding further
concern with it being so UK-based, and we don’t have active groups in the UK
have a lot of things that fit nicely, other than the UK-local element, but up to explore an idea, e.g. local deployment of karrot, that then contributes to karrot development… and then would need clarity on what is in what project
awareness of adapting to fit funding patterns
is there a lot of reporting to do, how laid back? nlnet felt quite good
Proposal: Nick will write an email draft taking the feedback into account and put it in the Karrot group, aiming to send it mid-week
collect topics for the future we didn’t cover today [E]
making a tutorial
future roadmap, plan
in-person meeting \o/
bank account/ legal structure
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
5. Actions/Outcomes
add activity series back for co-working [Nathalie]
invite Tilmann to next friday meeting [Nick]
some co-working async/otherwise on release tutorials [Everyone]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
information: any non-karrot announcements? unavailabilities?
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working
next friday general
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!
Bruno
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
5 min
4. Discussion points
(video) tutorials and next steps [E]
Nathalie
Very energised by the whole task, co-working was fun, co-working set up the computer, fun seeing vas video and the difference, great that bruno took some time, I like it when its structured and neat, but dont want to push it to the group, I m fine with what is produced, two tutorials missing, 1 person needs to do two, wonder if the ppl doing the video → where to put it? e.g. in
Karrot or forum, we need to re-write conflict resolution process
Bruno: can we schedule edits on posts?, material that is way way better than nothing, I can see room for improvement, amateur feeling to it can be Ok, in practical terms about the next steps, just do that banner thing to reach out to ppl → short message to a forum post, descriiptiion of each new feature and link to the tutorials…an overview. Explain on the post, ask as to activate, set a deadline to ourselves? I dont mind not completing exactly all the videos on time. Next week for the release: we prob get time for one more.
Vasilis: videos were really nice, positive that people see who we are, we’re not professionals and we do make mistakes, in line with Karrot culture, totally ok with something being ‘amateur’, rather name it natural, unpolished, really amazed by agreements feature seeing it on video, have a short text and video together, bullet points, use banner and link it there ‘Have you seen our new features? Learn more about them!’,or maybe name the features, finish all 5 videos before release, Vas could do another video
→ Let Nick choose one topic for a video and then we decide who is doing the remaining one
→ Deadline?
- video (involved Nick who is not here): text and post (Karrot forum and banner)
- Next Friday 4th of November
→ Let’s do a banner! And don’t add extra questions marks within Karrot (for now)
→ Add bullet points going with each video
→ follow up with some groups after the release and make a post on Karrot team and feedback group
Notes from co-working session with Nathalie & Vas:
New Features:
Trust for Role and Participant Types [?]
Public Activities [Bruno]
Agreements Feature [Nathalie]
Refining places and activities feature [?]
Membership Review [Vasilis]
Self-Hosting (?)
-What do we want to do about the release?
tutorials? video?
one post per feature
use tutorials category: Tutorials - Karrot Community
-where to go?
-forums post? can be linked to the banner?
info texts in Karrot, how to embed information within Karrot
more little green questions marks?
might be too much?
would work well for Agreements feature
identify places in Karrot where we use Questions marks (green ones and others)
re-write conflict resolution forum post (linked in Karrot)
produce video and text
→ prepare posts in “Staff” section see https://community.karrot.world/c/staff/4
→ Nathalie could do Trust for Role and Participant Types but happy for other to take it!
→ Vasilis worked on the ‘membership review’
talk about needs, money, decide on a period and so on
Bruno: agree on the above
Vasilis: getting closer to applying to come into the money circle.
should we do the review first?
schedule review of money agreement
in Nov half a year past, review the whole agreement
schedule for Nov 11th
new idea: do review first and then do money circle afterwards → next meeting
collect topics for the future - list of ideas [E]
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan +1
in-person meeting \o/ +1
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
Ideas ideas ideas:
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
In person meeting?
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
→ keep this list in Appendix and remove items once we talk about them
→ remove Appedix if get annoyed
5. Actions/Outcomes
invite Tilmann to next friday meeting [Nick]
re-write conflict resolution process
inform and ask Nick about a video and which features need to be enabled (feature flag), ask updates on the funding bid ← ask [Vasilis]
video (involved Nick who is not here), texts (Karrot forum and banner) [everyone]
add a small extra on group preview [Bruno]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
proposal to take away the “reference is 15€/h”. Feels not applicable
could do minor tweaks for clarity,
like the part about “make a living” which is really not about money.
change “decide each agreement individually” to “together”
3 levels more like a guideline and not a must
likes the text
would also remove the 15/h reference
agrees with the togetherness, mutual agreement
maybe add a sentence making it clear the levels of contributions are suggestion only.
everybody agrees on removing the “reference is 15E/h” bit
everybody agrees on changing “individually” to “together”
leave the other suggestions for the next one
next agreement review in 6 months - 5th of May 2023
do money circle
Vas: PhD funding ends officially on December, will have more expenses this year, rents and loan. Suggestion to receive 200GBG/230EUR for the next 3 months
Nathalie: put herself as occasional contributor but would like to be promoted to committed. Feels it’s hard to count the hours, would like to not think in those terms. Financial situation still not sustainable. Was considering getting more from Karrot, but would like to see if it works with the amount on the Karrot account. Would like to stay the same probably, 300EUR/month
Nick: loads of money coming in from capitalist work, but money for the boat. It makes sense to go down, not strictly about the time worked. Maybe go down from 400EUR to 200EUR, freeing up 200 to others
Bruno: good so far, covering more of our expenses and for how long? I think I m fine with the amount I receive now, if we had 1mil I would defo go up to raise, interesting to do the calculaton again just to be aware of how much room we have. It’s OK as it is now. 200 euros for now. Things might change in a couple of months, inflation.
Nick proposes going down to 100EUR and increase to others
Nathalie feels more comfortable with 400EUR but feels Nick should not go down just becaue of current work
Agreed that Nat will go for 400
Nick: 100€
Nathalie: 400€
Bruno: 200€
Vas: 230€
agreed! review in 3 months February 2023
paying michal/et al
they’d like to take 1500€ and add another 20h of work to make the package really nice
release planning/ remaining tutorials
only one left: participant type and trust for role
also left: post with bullet points for each feature
short text for the banner
short intro text and index and then we link there the forum posts related to tutorials
not much talk about it, server is also running KH stuff
one time thing, seems fine
appreciation and gratitude from Karrot side to Kanthaus
thank you!
Tilmann and Karrot!?
who is in the Karrot team? one discussion where the question came up who to mention
be in the calls
clarify contribution and communication
receive a bit of money too
what tilmanns says
fixed day with a call didn’t fit in life
involved with Karrot stuff still
lot of maintenance work, not so much a topic in the calls
get back again with maintenance, occasionally with coding
not get back to feature discussion, that’s too much
way more involved in Nlnet that originally planned, could imagine doing something like this again
Karrot team is vague still, seems to be a distinction between team and contributors
on the outer team
‘team’ not super clear within Karrot, first time when starting the Karrot group
in-person dev connections are nice, second person to discuss with
doing everything with people is nice
integrate worlds: user and dev side
defined membership is a big thing in sociocracy
let’s keep all connected, know each other
point person from “team” between “team” and a very active contributor?
commitment to Karrot
How does Karrot fit into life without being a side show?
long-term sustainibility of a project
“team” discussion is bigger than this point
also connected to legal topic
grow and adapt Karrot into our lifes
nice to say hello again, confirm status-quo
money: bigger topic, no need for Karrot money now, motivated to contribute to next funding, at some point participate in money round again, let’s have a look next year again, next money circle february 3rd 2023
dedicate a call on money and Tilmann-Kanthaus? maybe december
Release of new features
technical process
all of the updates dont have the nice entry, needs some fiddlng
groups and future flag (which?) and how to communicate
Nick doesnt have the capacity for now, would just leave it
Nat: many resources around governance topic, community: if the programme involves reading some of these bits, that would be interesting
maybe there is more gain for individuals
could sofa fit?
a bit unsure yet
sociocary will end in January
could have capacity for that
a bit hesitand to comit
Bruno:
5. Actions/Outcomes
re-write conflict resolution process [Vas] - edit the existing post
video about participant types and roles [Nathalie]
karrot and feedback group discussion aboout email to sent over to codeforsociety [Vas]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
Hey Karrot friends! In the following weeks a series of new Karrot features will be deployed. More info and video tutorials soon!
(announcement when features are released and tutorials are uploaded)
previous:
!NEW and REFINED Karrot features!: Membership Review (REFINED), Places (REFINED), Agreements Feature (NEW), Public Activities (NEW), Participant types and Approved Role (NEW). More info and video Tutorials here: link
current idea:
Already on dev community announcements:
Yay! New and refined features on Karrot just out of the oven! Check them out here.
happy for changes whoever is doing the banner
feels complete!
wise verification for Vas is done [R]
he got his cash! done, boom!
codeforsociety funding [D]
talked about it on last co-working
Vas and Nathalie think it’s interesting and cool. They got the feeling it will be mostly them. Motivated
Some question still on how it works
Vas sent e-mail introducing Karrot and how we work. Waiting for reply
question: would it be possible for other team members to join the sessions?
how much of a weekly commitment?
does there need to be a legal entity to get the stipendium?
Vas and Nat would like to apply (if the commitment is not too big, still waiting for the answer)
Nathalie could use some of the extra money (totally see it as Karrot money on the first place) and we can discuss this on the money circle
Bruno interested in jumping in later maybe
Bruno says go for it
Vas and Nat work on application next wednesay, post draft and seek final feedback from team until friday.
Next time:
open applications Karrot Team and Feedback group [E/D]
there are many inactive Karrot groups in Italy. Do we still have contact? How to deal with those groups?
next call: december 13th
5. Actions/Outcomes
re-write conflict resolution process [Vas] - maybe done?
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
Date: 2022-12-02 19:30 CET
Where: Jitsi Meet
Facilitator: Nathalie
Minutes: Nick
Participants: Nick, Nathalie, Vas
1. Opening
10 min Check in
5 min ADMIN
attendance (write down participants)
duration: 1h30 total
information: any non-karrot announcements? unavailabilities?
SoFA: Nathalie joined helping circle called ‘Software for SoFA’, might be interesting to discuss Karrot in this context!
next meeting:
next Wednesday co-working
next friday general
pick facilitator for next week: you? your karrot needs you!: Vasilitator
2. Consent to agenda
2 min
3. Review last weeks Actions/Outcomes
5 min
re-write conflict resolution process [Vas] - maybe done?
4. Discussion points
release celebration []
Nick way to reconnect with Karrot, happy that we did it. it felt nice having tutorlias, banner, felt like a team work. Felt the presence of eveyone contributed, a nice togetheness thing/feeling, tech issues: manual work, jolly fair pizza and spamminmg the thread, basic reality of what is actually going on
Nathalie: promising for the future, after some slow down. enjoyed the wave of interaction with people afterwards, e.g. Daniel and Dave, and even if the emails are about the app not working, it was still fun answering them, and Bruno doing the video was nice, felt vivid. glad to hear the preparations landed nicely.
Vasilis: really enjoyed the conversation with preparing pizza whilst deploying it, nice to bring this everyday shit into the conversation. would be nice to write down the reactions we had already. wondering which emails came in? 2 or 3 came in, maybe info@karrot.world? wondering if it was about complaining. basic infrastructure can be invisible, but whe it crashes, people come in…so you find out how useful something is when something goes down. remembering when the server went down. reminds us it’s useful and people use it, it’s important for thaeir daily activities. when the bridge goes down, invisible infrastructure becomes visible. got tricked by the different way to sign into an activity, looks nice though now.
Karrot app support [D]
proposal: we don’t support the app from Google play Store anymore.
for several reasons it’s not woring any more
we already started to communicate that we’re not supporting it any more
but didn’t probably Decide it
no one is motivated to fix data privacy issue in Play store (it’s some kind of legal text)
resistance to rush and do something to please google
also a few technical issues
seems good opertunity now to usw PWA
we never had ios either
data privacy policy wasn’t required before, then it was…
unlear what triggered the change
Nick: remove it from appstore, PWA + tutorials, scroll bottom for notifications to enable them, remove the app code as well? looks the same but works differently, tilman likes removing all code, I d leave around for a while at least, Karrot agremenets to put this in as well
Nathale: have a bigger picture now, maybe a bigger decision than previously thought, because it has impact at the code level, would have been nice to have it in playstore for outreach purposes, PWA version though works very nicely, and funtionality is good, fine to tell people we have a PWA app app, and teach people how to use it. so can overcome the outreach point. so maybe two level process, leave the code there for now, and review in the future. ok to let go of the google thing.
Vasilis: understand the outreach point, would karrot come up when people type “food waste” in google play store? … but then if it doesn’t make any difference how the app functions, then using the PWA (Progressive Web App) seems good. maybe good to announce this to the groups. maybe some groups noticed it broken, but just switch to another tool. maybe a banner would be useful. wonders if the app-related code would still be available if others wanted to fork (it would).
Proposal. We don’t support the app from Google play Store anymore. We encourage the usage of our PWA and provide support on how to use it. It comes in 2 parts:
1) remove from play store
2) review code removing
term: 4 months
consent
some meta discussion came up about how many people is enough to consent (no absentee policy)
maybe something we should start discussing
we’ll give it one more week, and ping bruno and tilmann to check for consent
idea: to have it as an agreement on our group
Nathalie would like to add ‘Privacy Policy’ to our List of ideas [R]
no need to about it today
it seems nobody is against having one, and might be good to share our ideas about data privacy
there are many inactive Karrot groups in Italy. Do we still have contact? How to deal with those groups?
next call: december 13th
knowledge sharing: how to enable feature flag features [Nathalie]
5. Actions/Outcomes
re-write conflict resolution process [Vas]
make a post about app agreement in our group [Nathalie]
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
there are many inactive Karrot groups in Italy. Do we still have contact? How to deal with those groups?
I think it would make sense to try and reach out to them and maybe try and connect them with the AIGU? Maybe its groups created by one person before setting up a group offline which has been the case with other groups but it can be different as well. Groups that do things but Karrot didnt work for them? The possiblity I see is that AIGU suggest the use of karrot to communties since I got the vide that they do not engage with fsharing directly themselves [vas]
next call: december 13th
I ll be there [vas]
another mail from recup (Italy)
we see that Natalie replied
lets see what they write back
open applications Karrot Team and Feedback group [E/D]
is that a practical or meta question?
who we let in and who not?
declining the two pending ones but with a text
is someone responsible for receiving applications?
maybe not. we do it as we do it now. whoever is available, in mood
proposal: We don’t support the app from Google play Store anymore. We encourage the usage of our PWA and provide support on how to use it. It comes in 2 parts:
remove from play store
review code removing
term: 4 months
I think we need consent on that from Tilman. Bruno already gave consent on the Karrot group post that Nathalie made [vas]
how to guide the process of reporting to us/ feature requests
I liked what Nick said last time when I suggested that we make it sth simple. He suggested that if sth is super simple like a ‘live chat’ thingy which is not the approach we want to take. However it would mmake sense to have reports/feature requests in the same place and in a place that ppl can go to. I d suggest either forum or our Karrot group. I d favor our Karrot group as I feel its a bit easier to step in than forum. However forum is more public and ppl dont need to apply and get aceepted etc [vas]
if we feel that there is some liveness in the karrot group because they already use karrot maybe we use forum to do some documentation. feedback and bugs coming all over so we can then organise it on the forum or still create a place on karrot, or feedback. for bugs if its sth that should be made a github issue.
we try and do some curation on the forum
general feedback, suggestion and ideas are welcome anywhere: the wall of the more including place for that
we (karrot team) do some curation and organise this info in a specific category in the forum
have the discussion where ppl are
bug reports the same thing but we curate them on github
knowledge sharing: how to enable feature flag features [Nathalie]
U mean knowledge sharing internaly? So its not only Nick and Tilman the ones that have to do it? [vas]
no time for this point
any updates from the applicaton we submitted?
@nick have u checked karrot inbox?
make a post (banner) to inform ppl about the PWA?
I saw post in a lot of group I m a member of ppl wondering what happpened with the app? So i think we need to make clearer how the PWA can be used [vas]
5. Actions/Outcomes
Banner for the PWA
Check inbox
Welcome and write back to Hubert
6. Closing Ceremony
10 min
checkout
Appendix
What the letters mean
[R] Report (clarifying the information) - one person telling something to everyone, so everyone gets clarity on the subject, can ask questions, but not really discussion, etc…
[E] Exploration (hearing reactions & ideas) - share our opinions, reactions, hear what everyone things, what’s on our mind
[D] Decision (making a decision) - final step to bring it together to a decision
List of ideas
making a tutorial(s), writing a manual/ handbook
future roadmap, plan
general direction for Karrot in the future? the conceptual part? more solid conceptual framework
in-person meeting \o/
‘Legalizing’ Karrot? Building a legal structure we can use?
bank account/ legal structure, open collective
governance structure of Karrot/ Karrot ‘team’
Server structure, connection with foodsharing.de and Kanthaus
sociocracy and Karrot
how sociocracy could support groups
idea of commons
if there are shared resources in a group = commons (e.g. a cargo bike) can this be supported by karrot. e.g. a feature for shared items? \
finding partnerships to do some on the ground testing. related to a funding or part maybe. (the idea that Nick explained recently), a network, a movement, outreach a more specific one
outreach: establish network and partnerships, maybe connecting with local movements
re-contextualise Karrot towards a more-generalised tool
a mind map of these ideas, to visualize and revisit them → have a focused session on this
vasilis will join on wednesday still
New and refined features on Karrot just out of the oven! 
]