Monthly money call

nicksellen · November 30, 2019, 3:07pm

Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina
Faciliator: Nick
Date: 30th November 2019

We had the first of our new monthly money calls!

The idea is to distribute money from the “karrot account” which has been sat there for a while due to lack of a concept of how to share it.

We had a long-ish free-ranging discussion across a few main areas:

high level meta concepts about money, value exchange logic, economics, etc
our personal lives and finances
practical ideas to put into practise right now!

The process was initiated by me because I am trying to create a life structure in which I can work on the projects I really want to, and cover the costs of my life. I am also very interested at the moment in these wider abstract questions, things like:

moving away from wage labour
money to support what it takes to be able to work on the project
money to use to get things which cannot be got for free

We thought about whether it should be just to cover costs of life, or also pay for things like travel costs for other people to come and join hackweeks, or to enable people to participate where money would be a problem otherwise. We are all very middle class and have had relatively comfortable/supported financial lives. We have all had savings, but generally they are going down now - so in some way our current lives are not sustainable.

I am interested in a way of society and work that is sustainable in some way, accepting that this might mean significant changes to keep costs low.

We wondered what it takes for people to join the money calls, and thought it should be fairly loose, but that participation in the weekly calls would be useful. It will probably primarily work because of the trust relationship between us, so should build that up with any people joining.

It’s also nice to be able to support projects like kanthaus that help the project a lot.

We agreed to transfer 70EUR to each of us this month, and reflect on how it felt in the next call. We don’t want to feel like we are working for the money, or to start spending more as a result of receiving some money.

We also agreed to write the minutes publicly for transparency about what we are doing and thinking!

Future monthly calls would be a lot shorter, skipping all the meta topics…

I didn’t take notes during the meeting to keep it free flowing, so these are maybe biased towards my personal thoughts, feel free to add any points I missed @tiltec / @djahnie.

Next call: 27th December 2019
Next faciliator: Janina

sylviaschneider · December 1, 2019, 3:35pm

“EfA – Essen fuer Alle” works entirely on a voluntary basis.

Even so, EfA could not work so efficiently, collecting food and distributing it to people who need it, without your work on karrots.

EfA would agree and would be glad, if we can support your work on karrots e.g. by a monthly contribution.

kristijan · December 25, 2019, 8:02pm

It looks like you are pretty much looking for the “holy grail”
a lot of ppl would like to have

a sustainable income that let’s you do what you want without obligations
or feeling bound to any expecation receiving money.

are the money calls open for everyone ?

tiltec · December 27, 2019, 11:26am

are the money calls open for everyone ?

I think they are by default open to join for “Karrot contributors”, that usually means people who regularly join the weekly call or make/made other significant contributions. As we don’t have formal rules (yet), we can make exceptions, but I personally would ask less involved people to read the minutes instead.

djahnie · December 27, 2019, 4:19pm

Date: 2019-12-27 12:30 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Janina
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina

1. Last month review

write down some words about your financial situation and how you felt about karrot money in the last period

Since last month was the first payday meeting we wanted to find out how it feels to receive money from the Karrot fund.
- Sadly we didn’t manage to actually transfer money. That makes it hard to say how it feels to get it…^^’

2. Up this month

write down what you expect to happen with regards to karrot money in the next period

Bruno and Sandro will come to Kanthaus in January to focus on Karrot. We want to offer them some refund for travel expenses.
- The amount would be based on low budget traveling, not on the ticket price already paid.
We agreed on paying each of us 70€ again and Nick did a bank transfer of 280€ to Tilmann’s account immediately (70€ per month for Janina and Tilmann).
- This means that next month we’ll be able to say how it felt to having received money from the Karrot fund.

3. Discussion

More meta talks about the concept of money in general and how it relates to value and trust.

4. Next

Next meeting: 2020-01-31 12:30 (UTC+1)
Next facilitator: tba

tiltec · January 31, 2020, 3:51pm

Date: 2020-01-31 15:00 (UTC+1)
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Nick, Tilmann, Janina

Notes

Janina likes the feeling of donating some money to Kanthaus, Tilmann agrees
We should ask Sandro again explicitly if he’d like some travel costs to be reimbursed.
Set aside money for foodsaving worldwide conference at foodsharing festival?
- not yet, maybe apply for Engagement Global funding
Funding for foodsaving communities
- what would they need money for? → start research in community forum
- make clear that we see it as redistribution, not as handing out our money → we also seek donations!

Expenses

Nick’s travel cost for Hackweek: 33€
- will be directly taken out of the cash machine by Nick
Kanthaus Hosting of Hackweek: 50€
- via Tilmann and Janina, delay payout until next payday call to reduce bank transfer fees
Nick, Janina, Tilmann payout: each 70€
- delay Janina and Tilmann until next payday call to reduce bank transfer fees
Domain costs for 2019: 73€
- foodsaving.today: about 19€/year
- karrot.world/foodsaving.world: about 27€/year each
- will be directly taken out of the cash machine by Nick

Notes

mostly chit-chat, we didn’t work much on Karrot but we think about it a lot

Expenses

Nick, Janina, Tilmann payout: each 70€

Agenda

reflection on why it stopped
- tilmann: calendar reminders not working, more focused on non-karrot stuff in last period of time, not much to discuss in the call, just confirming the state, not on mind… felt like it’s not urgent so fine to postpone to next month… repeat…
- janina: generally bad at remembering (need reminder!), actually felt relieved when the call didn’t happen as felt odd to receive some money without doing much, felt like a difficulty of deciding how much, so arbitary… generally feeling vague, not paying out each call… felt disconnected from it all. but do think it’s cool we do it, and want to find a way to make it more relevent
- nick: did actually get reminded but didn’t feel like these calls were embedded in what we do, structure missing, maybe more question to answer could help…? agree to what was said before in terms of vagueness and no urgency, but also want to improve it because it’s actually a core model in life to have better money distribution structures, gap between theory and practice
how to continue?

ideas:

tilmann: proposal to maybe attach it to the weekly call at the end of the month? (unless we have a lot to talk about on the weekly call, to make it not too long)
- janina: solves problem of forgetting perhaps?
- janina: might feel annoying as we manage to talk a lot even when there is nothing on the agenda
janina: preparation sheet / questions to answer in advance
janina: as we don’t really have expenses, it’s about a personal thing. shared economy meetings reference: really cool, talk about their actual needs. would be more interesting.
- nick: likes the personal approach
- janina: shared economy stuff in kanthaus already has some structures, can talk to nathalie

The Idea:

incorporate ideas from shared economy / more personal vision
- thinking more about which expenses are coming up next month
- … what do I really need money for … not just “the usual”
- making our personal situations transparent to each other
- then come up with a number
- reflection of last months expenses, was it as expected? especially good/bad stuff that happened regarding money?
write up some questions we answer each time
- janina to discuss with nathalie and propose some questions (on rocket chat), then we do it at the next scheduled money call (end of month)
stick it onto the end of one of the weekly calls
- last sunday of the month
- shared calender?
  - kanthaus nextcloud?
  - a karrot group with “pickups”?
  - a discourse event plugin?
  - rocket chat reminder feature?
  - reminder in yunity slack?
continue (in the way decided just before this point)

Outcomes

somebody might look into calender/event/reminder scheduling thing
Janina will talk to nathalie and post suggestion for call structure to #payday channel
do next payday call next scheduled time (2020-06-28) after the next weekly call

Agenda

What are your fixed monthly expenses?

Janina: Nothing via my account except the fees for said account. Health insurance is ~90€ paid from Tilmann’s account. Actual living expenses are hard to put a number on and go via Kanthaus accounts.
Tilmann: 90€ health insurance + ~30€ other recurring stuff
Nick: £20 phone, £10 email/backup/vpn, rent 175EUR. total ~210EUR/month + unknown food + beer amount.

Were there any changes to those expected expenses last month?

Janina: No.
Tilmann: A bit less in summer because of solar power and no heating.
Nick: No.

What were your additional expenses last month?

Janina: Some baby milk, oats and a visit to a cafe. Maybe 40€ in total.
Tilmann: No baby food because Janina bought it. Always unclear how much I should contribute to Kanthaus building expenses, even though it’s not really a ‘personal’ expense.
Nick: birthday presents for the kids! £70, passport £80, £10 on books

Did you have trouble covering for your needs/obligations financially?

Janina: No.
Tilmann: No.
Nick: No.

Would you have spent more on something if you had had more money at hand?

Janina: That’s always hard for me to say since I never really had an income… It was nice spending a thousand euros of my mum’s money on wedding rings though.
Tilmann: Yeah I think generally I would have spent more if I would have income, but then it’s more like spending 5k or 10k on things like a shielded bike or high quality woodworking tools. It would be luxury expenses which I don’t make because I don’t know where the money comes back from after I spent it.
Nick: No.

Did you have any income?

Janina: 204€ of Kindergeld on Tilmann’s account, so no…^^
Tilmann: Nothing to add.
Nick: Nothing so far.

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

Janina: 70€ because of a lack of better ideas…^^’
Tilmann: 70€ for each of the last 4 months, mostly to donate to Kanthaus
Nick: Ditto.

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

6929.16€

Feedback

Janina: interesting connections coming out between money and material needs of our dreams (buying land!)
Tilmann: liked it, maybe first 3 questions were just 1 question?
Nick: also liked it, but the two question to which the answer was no are maybe not needed. also the connection between what we talked about and how much money we want is missing a bit. we could maybe also include funding stuff in the money call and create a section for it, or make a ‘anything else you wanna say’ section. that could also be the section to share interesting theoretical models about money that people came across recently and such.
Bruno: I would try again with this format, was good.

Outcomes

Ideas

Janina will try to come up with a number to put on her fixed monthly expenses.
Tilmann thinks of making up some kind of Kanthaus rent which also includes contribution to construction costs.
New section about funding possibilities?

Payout

Janina: 4 x 70€ to Tilmann’s account
Tilmann: 4 x 70€
Nick: 4 x 70€

Agenda

What were your (fixed) expenses last month?

Nick: 170€ rent, all th stuff from last month like a phone bill and such. More food this time.
Tilmann: 50€ donations to Kanthaus, 90€ health euros
Janina: Same as Tilmann’s.

What were your additional expenses last month?

Nick: A solar panel for 60€.
Tilmann: train tickets to my parents place 20€
Janina: 1000€ to Harzgerode for wedding party and as support, 500€ to crowdfunding

Would you have spent more on something if you had had more money at hand?

Nick: No.
Tilmann: No.
Janina: No.

Did you have any income?

Nick: Should have sent some invoices but didn’t, so no.
Tilmann: Kindergeld (204€ in total)
Janina: Same as Tilmann

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

Nick: Still don’t really know what to say, so I just go for the 70€ as a default.
Tilmann: 70€ again
Janina: 70€ for simplicity

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

6087.36€

Anything else you want to say

Recognition that we’re privileged. We can get the stuff we need.

Feedback

Outcomes

Ideas

Prefill the pad to make the call shorter.
Distribute 70€ to another person or project as a donation.
We should keep our eyes open for grants which are easy to get, so that we can practice giving away.

Payout

70€ to Nick
70€ to Tilmann
70€ to Janina
No transfer to Tilmann and Janina this month to save the fees.

Agenda

What were your (fixed) expenses last month?

Janina: 50€ donations to Kanthaus, 90€ health insurance
Tilmann: same as Janina
Nick: 170€ rent, all the stuff from last month like a phone bill and such. More food this time. Calculated food! (not complete), but maybe 120€/month between us. 200€-300€ in total.

What were your additional expenses last month?

Janina: 20€ for a new used baby carrier thing, 5€ for a drink and a meal at Spitzenfabrik Grimma
Tilmann: none
Nick: Train tickets to/from Kanthaus (40EUR), had a fancy meal out! (mmmm), maybe 30-40EUR

Did you have any income?

Janina, Tilmann: Kindergeld (204€ in total)
Nick: nope

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

Janina: 70€ for simplicity
Tilmann: 70€ seems good to offset some monthly expenses
Nick: 90€, normal 70 + half the train ticket

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

6017€

Anything else you want to say

Janina: EfA want to support us with monthly money transfers. I gave them our account details and said thanks. We’ll see how much arrives.
Nick: adding Janina/Bruno to transferwise if they want

Feedback

Janina: nice and quick! (by directly typing our own stuff into the pad)
Nick: also liked it nice and quick

Outcomes

Actions

noticed our liberapay logo is wrong, Tilmann is fixing
keep an eye on the transferwise account for incoming from EfA

Payout

90€ to Nick
70€ to Tilmann
70€ to Janina

Agenda

What were your (fixed) expenses last month?

Janina: 50€ donations to Kanthaus, 90€ health insurance
Tilmann: same as Janina
Nick: 170€ rent (last rent!), all the stuff from last month like a phone bill and such. More food this time. Calculated food! (not complete), but maybe 120€/month between us. 200€-300€ in total.

What were your additional expenses last month?

Janina: 32€ for train tickets
Tilmann: none
Nick: quite a lot (relatively) on camping gear, not clear how to account/consider that, but could just add a random 50EUR

Did you have any income?

Janina, Tilmann: 204€ Kindergeld + 200€ bonus because of corona (404€ in total)
Nick: nope

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

Janina: 70€ as usual
Tilmann: 70€, for simplicity
Nick: 70€ + 50€ = 120€

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

5646.73€

Anything else you want to say

nick: still at some point might like a more comprehensive model for what this is all about

Feedback

Outcomes

Actions

Payout

Tilmann+Janina: no payout to avoid fee
Nick: will take out from cash machine (also to avoid fee!)

Agenda

What were your (fixed) expenses last month?

Janina, Tilmann: same as last month: 2x140€ (50€ for Kanthaus + 90€ health insurance)
Nick: rent is gone, maybe maximum 70€ for phone and subscriptions

What were your additional expenses last month?

Janina, Tilmann: 94€ train tickets, 17€ diapers, 3€ food
Nick: 100€ fancy camping chair, random bits of food and eating out

Did you have any income?

Janina, Tilmann: 204€ Kindergeld + 10€ via Liberapay
Nick: 10€ via Liberapay

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

Janina: 70€
Tilmann: 50€ to cover the donations
Nick: 70€

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

5826.73€

Income to Karrot account

300€ donation

Anything else you want to say

Nick likes the looseness of our money setup, avoids thinking about exact figures too much
Tilmann ususally doesn’t think about personal money much, usually deals with it in the Kanthaus context. Would feel like circumventing the Kanthaus community if he would pay much from personal money.

Feedback

Outcomes

Actions

Payout

70€ to Nick via cash
260€ to Janina and Tilmann, including last month’s take

Karrot payday call - pad

Date: 2020-11-29 after weekly call
Facilitator: Tilmann
Participants: Tilmann, Nick, Janina

Agenda

What were your (fixed) expenses last month?

Nick: phone = £20, maybe about £10 in web stuff
Janina, Tilmann: same as last month: 2x140€ (50€ for Kanthaus + 90€ health insurance)

What were your additional expenses last month?

Nick: kanthaus? 50EUR? bike bits ~£100, £40 donation to person in need, dentist 250EUR (maybe refundable?)
Janina: 25€ for baby food and baby clothes, 17€ for medical test, 595€ for foodsharing moderation
Tilmann: 12€ for baby shoes

Did you have any income?

Nick: my liberapay arrived! 60EUR (but from last months), legacy invoices £1k
Janina, Tilmann: 204€ Kindergeld

How much money would you like to receive from the Karrot fund this month?

Nick: 100€
Janina: 70€
Tilmann: 70€

What is the current balance of the Karrot fund account?

5566.38€

Income to Karrot account

None

Anything else you want to say

Nick didn’t pay out his amount last time
how to tap into some kind of fund?

Feedback

some talk about good investment and personal stability

Outcomes

Actions

let’s add a section in the beginning to fill out the pad together

Payout

no payouts, let’s wait for next month